Does free Will and determinism mix?

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JackDaydream
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by JackDaydream »

Belindi wrote: March 24th, 2022, 7:36 am
JackDaydream wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 6:07 am
Belindi wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 5:36 am
Arbu123 wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 10:27 pm Example: If I do action A (throw a pencil), effect B is determined to happen (it falls to the gro7uund). The same is true for all actions, so do we have any scenario where there’s absolute determinism or absolute free Will or do they just mix?
Either all scenarios absolutely and exclusively are caused (i.e.determined) scenarios, or all scenarios absolutely and exclusively are Free Will scenarios.

Nature is game of skill not a game of luck. If Free Will were true there would be no order or reason and all would be random, not caused.

Your example "If I throw a pencil etc.------" is over -simplified. Everything that happened necessarily happened, but you don't know if the pencil will fall to the ground. You don't know because you don't know that a thieving bird won't snatch it from the air, or that a fire won't intervene to burn the pencil in mid air. The pencil you threw yesterday fell to the ground but that does not imply the pencil will fall to the ground today. That determinism does not imply prediction is not grounds for Free Will to be the case.

Common sense tell us the pencil will invariably fall but this useful intuition is not philosophical or scientific reasoning.

BTW there are other active discussions on Free Will and Determinism.

Your freedom of choice does not reside in so-called 'Free Will'. Your freedom results from your knowledge and reasoning ability; the more you can use those the more free you are and the more and wider are your choices. Thus a man who suffers from an obsession is less free. Take Macbeth , or Putin, for examples. These men are ruled by their obsessions with personal power and so they will not be free to choose other possibilities.
I am glad that your post looks at the psychology of freedom, such as obsessions of Macbeth or Putin. Often, the philosophy of free will focuses upon the issue of whether people have any conscious reflective ability to choose or are mere robots or puppets. Some writers, such as the behaviourist BF Skinner, in his book, 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity', argued against consciousness as an aspect of human choice. However, rather than this be a sweeping statement about the human condition, it may be that such choice may be developed.

In this respect the issue of freedom is about the development of consciousness and self mastery, but I realise that this may be different from the way people think about free will as a whole. Breaking down the concept of what free will means may be important. As the author of this thread points out, there is the issue of the ability to predict. There is also the question about nature and nurture. In addition, there is the ability to make conscious choices which involves the establishment of clear goals.
I heartily think that the psychology of choice can be developed. Indeed there is no big difference between an educator and a psychotherapist. The question of nature or nurture enters into the methods of education/therapy as some people are slow or backward learners, and others suffer from brain lesions or chemical malfunction e.g. dementia, bipolar, or schizophrenia, or a combination of nature and nurture.

I don't know how obsessive disorder fits with nature or nurture. I am sure in the cases of Macbeth and Putin the obsession to increase personal power has been learned. In each of the above cases the obsession with power (and Lady Macbeth's handwashing thing too) were learned. The weird events that happen to persons who once were innocent healthy babies can set people off on some track of thinking that can eventually kill them. As a mental health professional you will have met people with obsessive disorder who are an existential danger to themselves.
I have worked with people with obsessive compulsive disorders and it is a complex area and those who come to the attention of mental health professionals often have routines and rituals which make it hard for them to function. For example, they may get stuck in routines while washing or using the toilet. Often this is connected to fears, such as contamination. There is often an underlying problem of intrusive thoughts which affect the individuals too.

The model which I have seen used in working with OCD is often cognitive behavioral. It often involves patients working with therapists to draw up programs to address the behaviour with increased exposure to doing activities which address the behaviours. There is a certain amount of success with CBT but it can hard work for the people and some find that there needs to be much deeper work with interrelated fears and past trauma as well.

The difference between what is seen as 'normal' and 'abnormal' is also complicated. What is important at this present time is that there may be an increase in OCD since the pandemic linked to fears of contamination. I remember the patients buying antibacterial wipes and gels endlessly and now it has become the norm.

However, getting back to obsessions in general, such as for power, this may be more insidious. Many people have such obsessions and are rewarded rather than seen as 'abnormal' in any way. The people who do get diagnosed are often the ones who are seen as having 'personality disorders' and there can be an overlap between personality disorders and OCD. Also, there are various differences in this, especially between those who may wish to harm themselves or those who have or wish to harm others. The second group often are in forensic psychiatry services.

However, I wish to take this back to the topic of free will. What may be an important issue may be whether the person wishes to change or not. I am sure that Putin doesn't see himself as having a problem and would not wish to be given therapeutic interventions. Nevertheless, there are people who have obsessions or thoughts which they wish to alter so much, but have great difficulty. That may be where the determinism vs free will debate gets so hard.

The power of environmental factors, especially childhood traumas, can be so hard and wired into the brain that it is extremely difficult. There are links between trauma and mental health problems in general. Often, the importance of medications come in. The way in which the medications affect thoughts and behaviours shows how important physiology and brain chemistry as a determining factor. Many people are on medication for years and relapse if they do not. That is why therapies as well as medications are important, but therapy is a difficult task.

Finally, the fact that many people are never seen as having problems which need psychiatric or psychological interventions doesn't mean that they have no areas for change. This may be the underlying philosophy issue of freedom or self-mastery, and the extent to which people wish to pursue this. Also, the prominence of deterministic philosophy may have the effect of disempowering people about their own autonomy and any potential development of free will.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

JackDaydream wrote: March 24th, 2022, 8:43 am
Belindi wrote: March 24th, 2022, 7:36 am
JackDaydream wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 6:07 am
Belindi wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 5:36 am
Either all scenarios absolutely and exclusively are caused (i.e.determined) scenarios, or all scenarios absolutely and exclusively are Free Will scenarios.

Nature is game of skill not a game of luck. If Free Will were true there would be no order or reason and all would be random, not caused.

Your example "If I throw a pencil etc.------" is over -simplified. Everything that happened necessarily happened, but you don't know if the pencil will fall to the ground. You don't know because you don't know that a thieving bird won't snatch it from the air, or that a fire won't intervene to burn the pencil in mid air. The pencil you threw yesterday fell to the ground but that does not imply the pencil will fall to the ground today. That determinism does not imply prediction is not grounds for Free Will to be the case.

Common sense tell us the pencil will invariably fall but this useful intuition is not philosophical or scientific reasoning.

BTW there are other active discussions on Free Will and Determinism.

Your freedom of choice does not reside in so-called 'Free Will'. Your freedom results from your knowledge and reasoning ability; the more you can use those the more free you are and the more and wider are your choices. Thus a man who suffers from an obsession is less free. Take Macbeth , or Putin, for examples. These men are ruled by their obsessions with personal power and so they will not be free to choose other possibilities.
I am glad that your post looks at the psychology of freedom, such as obsessions of Macbeth or Putin. Often, the philosophy of free will focuses upon the issue of whether people have any conscious reflective ability to choose or are mere robots or puppets. Some writers, such as the behaviourist BF Skinner, in his book, 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity', argued against consciousness as an aspect of human choice. However, rather than this be a sweeping statement about the human condition, it may be that such choice may be developed.

In this respect the issue of freedom is about the development of consciousness and self mastery, but I realise that this may be different from the way people think about free will as a whole. Breaking down the concept of what free will means may be important. As the author of this thread points out, there is the issue of the ability to predict. There is also the question about nature and nurture. In addition, there is the ability to make conscious choices which involves the establishment of clear goals.
I heartily think that the psychology of choice can be developed. Indeed there is no big difference between an educator and a psychotherapist. The question of nature or nurture enters into the methods of education/therapy as some people are slow or backward learners, and others suffer from brain lesions or chemical malfunction e.g. dementia, bipolar, or schizophrenia, or a combination of nature and nurture.

I don't know how obsessive disorder fits with nature or nurture. I am sure in the cases of Macbeth and Putin the obsession to increase personal power has been learned. In each of the above cases the obsession with power (and Lady Macbeth's handwashing thing too) were learned. The weird events that happen to persons who once were innocent healthy babies can set people off on some track of thinking that can eventually kill them. As a mental health professional you will have met people with obsessive disorder who are an existential danger to themselves.
I have worked with people with obsessive compulsive disorders and it is a complex area and those who come to the attention of mental health professionals often have routines and rituals which make it hard for them to function. For example, they may get stuck in routines while washing or using the toilet. Often this is connected to fears, such as contamination. There is often an underlying problem of intrusive thoughts which affect the individuals too.

The model which I have seen used in working with OCD is often cognitive behavioral. It often involves patients working with therapists to draw up programs to address the behaviour with increased exposure to doing activities which address the behaviours. There is a certain amount of success with CBT but it can hard work for the people and some find that there needs to be much deeper work with interrelated fears and past trauma as well.

The difference between what is seen as 'normal' and 'abnormal' is also complicated. What is important at this present time is that there may be an increase in OCD since the pandemic linked to fears of contamination. I remember the patients buying antibacterial wipes and gels endlessly and now it has become the norm.

However, getting back to obsessions in general, such as for power, this may be more insidious. Many people have such obsessions and are rewarded rather than seen as 'abnormal' in any way. The people who do get diagnosed are often the ones who are seen as having 'personality disorders' and there can be an overlap between personality disorders and OCD. Also, there are various differences in this, especially between those who may wish to harm themselves or those who have or wish to harm others. The second group often are in forensic psychiatry services.

However, I wish to take this back to the topic of free will. What may be an important issue may be whether the person wishes to change or not. I am sure that Putin doesn't see himself as having a problem and would not wish to be given therapeutic interventions. Nevertheless, there are people who have obsessions or thoughts which they wish to alter so much, but have great difficulty. That may be where the determinism vs free will debate gets so hard.

The power of environmental factors, especially childhood traumas, can be so hard and wired into the brain that it is extremely difficult. There are links between trauma and mental health problems in general. Often, the importance of medications come in. The way in which the medications affect thoughts and behaviours shows how important physiology and brain chemistry as a determining factor. Many people are on medication for years and relapse if they do not. That is why therapies as well as medications are important, but therapy is a difficult task.

Finally, the fact that many people are never seen as having problems which need psychiatric or psychological interventions doesn't mean that they have no areas for change. This may be the underlying philosophy issue of freedom or self-mastery, and the extent to which people wish to pursue this. Also, the prominence of deterministic philosophy may have the effect of disempowering people about their own autonomy and any potential development of free will.
-----obsessions in general, such as for power, this may be more insidious. Many people have such obsessions and are rewarded rather than seen as 'abnormal' in any way.-
Exactly. Obsession with personal power such as Putin's obsession develops stage by stage exponentially. Identified stages are Putin's attaining the status of KGB officer, then the higher status of becoming a favourite of Yeltzin.
Societies usually reward personal power with high status and wealth and other trappings of elites. Groups such as Quakers or Amish or certain other Christian groups recognise this and try to live their lives outside mainstream society so that none of them becomes a dictator.
Also, the prominence of deterministic philosophy may have the effect of disempowering people about their own autonomy and any potential development of free will.
I strongly disagree. Your opinion is due to a misreading of the meaning of 'Free Will' and 'determinism'.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by JackDaydream »

Belindi wrote: March 25th, 2022, 7:52 am
JackDaydream wrote: March 24th, 2022, 8:43 am
Belindi wrote: March 24th, 2022, 7:36 amu
JackDaydream wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 6:07 am

I am glad that your post looks at the psychology of freedom, such as obsessions of Macbeth or Putin. Often, the philosophy of free will focuses upon the issue of whether people have any conscious reflective ability to choose or are mere robots or puppets. Some writers, such as the behaviourist BF Skinner, in his book, 'Beyond Freedom and Dignity', argued against consciousness as an aspect of human choice. However, rather than this be a sweeping statement about the human condition, it may be that such choice may be developed.

In this respect the issue of freedom is about the development of consciousness and self mastery, but I realise that this may be different from the way people think about free will as a whole. Breaking down the concept of what free will means may be important. As the author of this thread points out, there is the issue of the ability to predict. There is also the question about nature and nurture. In addition, there is the ability to make conscious choices which involves the establishment of clear goals.
I heartily think that the psychology of choice can be developed. Indeed there is no big difference between an educator and a psychotherapist. The question of nature or nurture enters into the methods of education/therapy as some people are slow or backward learners, and others suffer from brain lesions or chemical malfunction e.g. dementia, bipolar, or schizophrenia, or a combination of nature and nurture.

I don't know how obsessive disorder fits with nature or nurture. I am sure in the cases of Macbeth and Putin the obsession to increase personal power has been learned. In each of the above cases the obsession with power (and Lady Macbeth's handwashing thing too) were learned. The weird events that happen to persons who once were innocent healthy babies can set people off on some track of thinking that can eventually kill them. As a mental health professional you will have met people with obsessive disorder who are an existential danger to themselves.
I have worked with people with obsessive compulsive disorders and it is a complex area and those who come to the attention of mental health professionals often have routines and rituals which make it hard for them to function. For example, they may get stuck in routines while washing or using the toilet. Often this is connected to fears, such as contamination. There is often an underlying problem of intrusive thoughts which affect the individuals too.

The model which I have seen used in working with OCD is often cognitive behavioral. It often involves patients working with therapists to draw up programs to address the behaviour with increased exposure to doing activities which address the behaviours. There is a certain amount of success with CBT but it can hard work for the people and some find that there needs to be much deeper work with interrelated fears and past trauma as well.

The difference between what is seen as 'normal' and 'abnormal' is also complicated. What is important at this present time is that there may be an increase in OCD since the pandemic linked to fears of contamination. I remember the patients buying antibacterial wipes and gels endlessly and now it has become the norm.

However, getting back to obsessions in general, such as for power, this may be more insidious. Many people have such obsessions and are rewarded rather than seen as 'abnormal' in any way. The people who do get diagnosed are often the ones who are seen as having 'personality disorders' and there can be an overlap between personality disorders and OCD. Also, there are various differences in this, especially between those who may wish to harm themselves or those who have or wish to harm others. The second group often are in forensic psychiatry services.

However, I wish to take this back to the topic of free will. What may be an important issue may be whether the person wishes to change or not. I am sure that Putin doesn't see himself as having a problem and would not wish to be given therapeutic interventions. Nevertheless, there are people who have obsessions or thoughts which they wish to alter so much, but have great difficulty. That may be where the determinism vs free will debate gets so hard.

The power of environmental factors, especially childhood traumas, can be so hard and wired into the brain that it is extremely difficult. There are links between trauma and mental health problems in general. Often, the importance of medications come in. The way in which the medications affect thoughts and behaviours shows how important physiology and brain chemistry as a determining factor. Many people are on medication for years and relapse if they do not. That is why therapies as well as medications are important, but therapy is a difficult task.

Finally, the fact that many people are never seen as having problems which need psychiatric or psychological interventions doesn't mean that they have no areas for change. This may be the underlying philosophy issue of freedom or self-mastery, and the extent to which people wish to pursue this. Also, the prominence of deterministic philosophy may have the effect of disempowering people about their own autonomy and any potential development of free will.
-----obsessions in general, such as for power, this may be more insidious. Many people have such obsessions and are rewarded rather than seen as 'abnormal' in any way.-
Exactly. Obsession with personal power such as Putin's obsession develops stage by stage exponentially. Identified stages are Putin's attaining the status of KGB officer, then the higher status of becoming a favourite of Yeltzin.
Societies usually reward personal power with high status and wealth and other trappings of elites. Groups such as Quakers or Amish or certain other Christian groups recognise this and try to live their lives outside mainstream society so that none of them becomes a dictator.
Also, the prominence of deterministic philosophy may have the effect of disempowering people about their own autonomy and any potential development of free will.
I strongly disagree. Your opinion is due to a misreading of the meaning of 'Free Will' and 'determinism'.
I am aware that I use the words determinism and free will a bit differently from many other people and that is because I see some of the conventional ways as a bit restrictive. However, I am wondering if you disagree with my point of view about determinism being disempowering how you see the matter in a way which you see it otherwise. Is it more about the way in which establishment of causes is a way of finding possible ways of overcoming sources which affect individuals' lives?
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Belindi wrote: March 25th, 2022, 7:52 am ...
JackDaydream wrote: March 24th, 2022, 8:43 am ...
I think we need to be careful when using medical terms as laymen (and laywomen?). I have OCD symptoms, and maybe the full thing, associated with my autism. It is a strange thing, difficult to understand. Here, we're trying to diagnose Putin with some mental health condition, and I'm not quite comfortable with that. In particular, I'm not sure if it contributes to our understanding of what Putin and Russia are up to.

I think Putin sees a rationale behind what he is doing, but we don't see it because we look at things differently. Personally, I can't see why he would invade Ukraine, but many political commentators, who know much more of global politics than I do, seem to have ideas. Are their ideas of any merit, do we think?
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by JackDaydream »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 25th, 2022, 11:04 am
Belindi wrote: March 25th, 2022, 7:52 am ...
JackDaydream wrote: March 24th, 2022, 8:43 am ...
I think we need to be careful when using medical terms as laymen (and laywomen?). I have OCD symptoms, and maybe the full thing, associated with my autism. It is a strange thing, difficult to understand. Here, we're trying to diagnose Putin with some mental health condition, and I'm not quite comfortable with that. In particular, I'm not sure if it contributes to our understanding of what Putin and Russia are up to.

I think Putin sees a rationale behind what he is doing, but we don't see it because we look at things differently. Personally, I can't see why he would invade Ukraine, but many political commentators, who know much more of global politics than I do, seem to have ideas. Are their ideas of any merit, do we think?
There is a danger in coming up with diagnostic labels to people. Even though in my work I contributed to assessment of casual use of diagnostic labels. Worse than diagnosing Putin is when forum members accude some other user of having 'mental illness' and I have seen it happen a few times..As people have not met in person it seems extremely dodgy and abusive because the people are not even mental health professional and assessment is a careful process. No one knows if people writing on forums has mental health problems unless someone chooses to disclose that they have.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Raymond »

Without determined processes a free will can't exist.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

Jack Daydream wrote:
I am aware that I use the words determinism and free will a bit differently from many other people and that is because I see some of the conventional ways as a bit restrictive. However, I am wondering if you disagree with my point of view about determinism being disempowering how you see the matter in a way which you see it otherwise. Is it more about the way in which establishment of causes is a way of finding possible ways of overcoming sources which affect individuals' lives?
The world is largely disempowering for man and beast and we are en route to our graves. We are therefore faced with the constant struggle to exist. In a deterministic world which I strongly believe this to be, human power comes from outwitting the gods by use of human reason and adaptiveness. It's human reason and adaptiveness that cures diseases, elevates wonderful athletes, creates music and fun generally, and seeks the good.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Raymond »

Belindi wrote: March 31st, 2022, 4:39 am Jack Daydream wrote:
I am aware that I use the words determinism and free will a bit differently from many other people and that is because I see some of the conventional ways as a bit restrictive. However, I am wondering if you disagree with my point of view about determinism being disempowering how you see the matter in a way which you see it otherwise. Is it more about the way in which establishment of causes is a way of finding possible ways of overcoming sources which affect individuals' lives?
The world is largely disempowering for man and beast and we are en route to our graves. We are therefore faced with the constant struggle to exist. In a deterministic world which I strongly believe this to be, human power comes from outwitting the gods by use of human reason and adaptiveness. It's human reason and adaptiveness that cures diseases, elevates wonderful athletes, creates music and fun generally, and seeks the good.
Human power comes from outwitting the gods? Why's that?
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by JackDaydream »

Belindi wrote: March 31st, 2022, 4:39 am Jack Daydream wrote:
I am aware that I use the words determinism and free will a bit differently from many other people and that is because I see some of the conventional ways as a bit restrictive. However, I am wondering if you disagree with my point of view about determinism being disempowering how you see the matter in a way which you see it otherwise. Is it more about the way in which establishment of causes is a way of finding possible ways of overcoming sources which affect individuals' lives?
The world is largely disempowering for man and beast and we are en route to our graves. We are therefore faced with the constant struggle to exist. In a deterministic world which I strongly believe this to be, human power comes from outwitting the gods by use of human reason and adaptiveness. It's human reason and adaptiveness that cures diseases, elevates wonderful athletes, creates music and fun generally, and seeks the good.
I definitely agree that life is a struggle and that existence can be extremely difficult. So many factors and obstacles arise. Definitely the creative use of reason is important. At times I wonder about the law of attraction because it does seem that mindset plays a big role. I find that it is so easy to get into a negative spiral when difficult events occur. But, it is possible that the law of attraction is magical thinking and superstition. There are so many ups and downs and I understand that the game of snakes and ladders was based on this idea.

With regard to determinism, part of my query is connected to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in quantum physics, although I am not a physicist which limits my understanding of this. One aspect of events which may be important is what Nassim Taleb describes as 'Black Swan' events. He argues that the ability to use the unexpected and unusual events in life in a positive way, through using them effectively in creating positive choices in life.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Raymond »

JackDaydream wrote: March 31st, 2022, 6:57 am
Belindi wrote: March 31st, 2022, 4:39 am Jack Daydream wrote:
I am aware that I use the words determinism and free will a bit differently from many other people and that is because I see some of the conventional ways as a bit restrictive. However, I am wondering if you disagree with my point of view about determinism being disempowering how you see the matter in a way which you see it otherwise. Is it more about the way in which establishment of causes is a way of finding possible ways of overcoming sources which affect individuals' lives?


The world is largely disempowering for man and beast and we are en route to our graves. We are therefore faced with the constant struggle to exist. In a deterministic world which I strongly believe this to be, human power comes from outwitting the gods by use of human reason and adaptiveness. It's human reason and adaptiveness that cures diseases, elevates wonderful athletes, creates music and fun generally, and seeks the good.
I definitely agree that life is a struggle and that existence can be extremely difficult. So many factors and obstacles arise. Definitely the creative use of reason is important. At times I wonder about the law of attraction because it does seem that mindset plays a big role. I find that it is so easy to get into a negative spiral when difficult events occur. But, it is possible that the law of attraction is magical thinking and superstition. There are so many ups and downs and I understand that the game of snakes and ladders was based on this idea.

With regard to determinism, part of my query is connected to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in quantum physics, although I am not a physicist which limits my understanding of this. One aspect of events which may be important is what Nassim Taleb describes as 'Black Swan' events. He argues that the ability to use the unexpected and unusual events in life in a positive way, through using them effectively in creating positive choices in life.
How are HUP and free will and determinism connected? The principle doesn't make the will or wont more or less free. If you consider chance a fundamental property of nature, which the standard Copenhagen interpretation of QM does, you dance around governed by chance. Or better, you are a fundamental chance process then. I prefer determined free will, as hidden variables offer.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by JackDaydream »

Raymond wrote: March 31st, 2022, 7:22 am
JackDaydream wrote: March 31st, 2022, 6:57 am
Belindi wrote: March 31st, 2022, 4:39 am Jack Daydream wrote:
I am aware that I use the words determinism and free will a bit differently from many other people and that is because I see some of the conventional ways as a bit restrictive. However, I am wondering if you disagree with my point of view about determinism being disempowering how you see the matter in a way which you see it otherwise. Is it more about the way in which establishment of causes is a way of finding possible ways of overcoming sources which affect individuals' lives?


The world is largely disempowering for man and beast and we are en route to our graves. We are therefore faced with the constant struggle to exist. In a deterministic world which I strongly believe this to be, human power comes from outwitting the gods by use of human reason and adaptiveness. It's human reason and adaptiveness that cures diseases, elevates wonderful athletes, creates music and fun generally, and seeks the good.
I definitely agree that life is a struggle and that existence can be extremely difficult. So many factors and obstacles arise. Definitely the creative use of reason is important. At times I wonder about the law of attraction because it does seem that mindset plays a big role. I find that it is so easy to get into a negative spiral when difficult events occur. But, it is possible that the law of attraction is magical thinking and superstition. There are so many ups and downs and I understand that the game of snakes and ladders was based on this idea.

With regard to determinism, part of my query is connected to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in quantum physics, although I am not a physicist which limits my understanding of this. One aspect of events which may be important is what Nassim Taleb describes as 'Black Swan' events. He argues that the ability to use the unexpected and unusual events in life in a positive way, through using them effectively in creating positive choices in life.
How are HUP and free will and determinism connected? The principle doesn't make the will or wont more or less free. If you consider chance a fundamental property of nature, which the standard Copenhagen interpretation of QM does, you dance around governed by chance. Or better, you are a fundamental chance process then. I prefer determined free will, as hidden variables offer.
I struggle to understand the physics of quantum mechanics but based on reading which I have done there different possible interpretations of the uncertainty principle as to whether it is simply about measurement or about randomness on a wider scale. One aspect may be the way in which relativity shows that the role of participant observer has an effect on outcomes. So, while human beings are observing events they are not outside of these but have some determining role in what happens. Each individual has some path of influence in the larger context of everything else. This would not imply complete but partial free will.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Raymond »

"Each individual has some path of influence in the larger context of everything else. This would not imply complete but partial free will."

Do you mean that your free will is impaired by others? Which would be okay by the way, as your free will is always by others to some extent that. Finding the right balance is the problem. A burning fire 🔥 is a determined free process, but it can surely limit free will of other free will "processes".
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by JackDaydream »

Raymond wrote: March 31st, 2022, 8:15 am "Each individual has some path of influence in the larger context of everything else. This would not imply complete but partial free will."

Do you mean that your free will is impaired by others? Which would be okay by the way, as your free will is always by others to some extent that. Finding the right balance is the problem. A burning fire 🔥 is a determined free process, but it can surely limit free will of other free will "processes".

My own thinking is that others do play a role in free will although this may be not how everyone else considers the matter because I do connect it with the issue of freedom..The way in which I see others being involved is they come into the picture of options. For example, suppose you want a specific job it will depend on the employee wishing to employ you. Similarly, if someone wishes for a relationship with someone else it depends on there being a mutual wish. In this respect, I am arguing that the issue of agency exists in terms of options arising in the range of actual choices available.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Raymond »

"My own thinking is that others do play a role in free will although this may be not how everyone else considers the matter because I do connect it with the issue of freedom.."

I think that's the only sensible approach! We are not "determined" by natural laws, statistical or deterministic (I think elementary particles behave determined precisely to be free...). We all have determined free will and only other people can impair our free will. Though our dog, staring at me now with wiggling tale, asking me to walk with her, has her way too!
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Leontiskos
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Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle and Aquinas

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Leontiskos »

Arbu123 wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 10:27 pm Example: If I do action A (throw a pencil), effect B is determined to happen (it falls to the ground). The same is true for all actions, so do we have any scenario where there’s absolute determinism or absolute free Will or do they just mix?
The commonsensical, or incompatibilist, position says that if something is free then it is not determined, and if something is determined then it is not free.

But different things have different properties and behavior. The reason the pencil falls to the ground is because it is not free vis-a-vis gravity. The reason you can freely throw the pencil is because you are free to cause the pencil to fly through the air, or not to cause the pencil to fly through the air.

Freedom presupposes causal regularities. If there were no causal regularities then I would not be free to do the things I want to do, because I would have no way to effect them. For example, if pencils and gravity and air did not act in a predictable way, then I would not be able to throw pencils.
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