No. Determinism does not imply prediction.
Does free Will and determinism mix?
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
True, it does not require prediction, though it is consistent with prediction.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
We don't altogether enjoy determinism as we'd much rather control our futures. A determined universe is controllable to some extent, and that extent is usually chance (luck ,fortune) and prediction ( probability). The discovery of disease germs, and penicillin, are recent examples of the combination of chance and choice.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
I understand why you would think so.
However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
NB This is not to imply Free Will is the case. It's the claim that determinism implies the future is potential only until it's the past whereupon each actual event becomes a necessary event. We and other intelligent animals create the future partly by choice and partly by chance or 'fortune'. The more that a choice is well- informed about regularities the more probably that choice will nail the future.
The process of establishing and explaining past events is imprecise for reasons well known to historians and psychologists. That we go on surviving is a surprise so it's little wonder successful people believe in Providence!
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]Belindi wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.
However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
Or put another way, in a Determined universe, antecedent state A always leads to resultant state B, never to resultant state C.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pmI'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]Belindi wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.
However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
I'm not an expert on all deterministic theories of being. The one I outlined draws on an analogy from physics ; there is potential energy and also kinetic energy. So I am claiming there is potential reality and also actualised reality. My version of determinism also allows for chance like how a physicist allows for indeterminacy.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pmI'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]Belindi wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.
However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
It may be the case that the strong determinism which you describe is the truth. I too used to believe this and I can see the sense of it. In all cases of determinism including yours and mine there is no reason for Free Will so-called.
Among other nonsense about 'Free Will' there is the evil-generating nonsense that of all life forms the human is the only life form that can originate an event.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
Belindi wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.
However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pm I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]
I thought the "indeterminacy" that the physicist allows for is a lack of certainty, called by another name? I'm sorry, I'm examining my words all the time to try to avoid nit-picking, honestly. But this just won't fall into a sensible pattern for me.Belindi wrote: ↑June 30th, 2022, 3:57 am I'm not an expert on all deterministic theories of being. The one I outlined draws on an analogy from physics ; there is potential energy and also kinetic energy. So I am claiming there is potential reality and also actualised reality. My version of determinism also allows for chance like how a physicist allows for indeterminacy.
A determined world means that event A happens, always, in the one and only way that it is determined to happen, regardless of everything that happened before, during or after that event. It seems like an absolute requirement; no wiggle-room available.
If determinism is not absolute, then what else could it be? What could it mean if predetermined events mostly come to pass? To me, it would mean that the world is not determined.
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Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?
I know. I still have to think about it.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 30th, 2022, 8:20 amBelindi wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.
However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pm I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]I thought the "indeterminacy" that the physicist allows for is a lack of certainty, called by another name? I'm sorry, I'm examining my words all the time to try to avoid nit-picking, honestly. But this just won't fall into a sensible pattern for me.Belindi wrote: ↑June 30th, 2022, 3:57 am I'm not an expert on all deterministic theories of being. The one I outlined draws on an analogy from physics ; there is potential energy and also kinetic energy. So I am claiming there is potential reality and also actualised reality. My version of determinism also allows for chance like how a physicist allows for indeterminacy.
A determined world means that event A happens, always, in the one and only way that it is determined to happen, regardless of everything that happened before, during or after that event. It seems like an absolute requirement; no wiggle-room available.
If determinism is not absolute, then what else could it be? What could it mean if predetermined events mostly come to pass? To me, it would mean that the world is not determined.
Compare possibility and probability. Possibility is strongly determined and indeed I can't deny that what's possible is possible and that's that.
Probability depends on variables. The classic example of billiard balls on a billiards table illustrates how probabilities can be artificially limited so that the billiard balls are simply push me pull you. Technologies are all causal artifacts for purposes of limiting unwanted variables. Kettles are made of strong enough materials so they can contain boiling water.
Most events are not technological artefacts, and the possibilities of natural events are infinite. Possibilities apply to future events and probability is what we make use of to try to foresee what will be happening and how to make use of what will be happening. Unlike us, God is a strongly deterministic idea as He can not only know future events but He can also actualise future events .
We, not being God, must live in the world of possibilities as regards not only unactualised events but also interpretations of past events and ongoing circumstances.This scary situation we are in is not only about what we can know, it's also about what is the case.
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