A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Sy Borg
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Atla wrote: May 12th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Sy Borg wrote: May 12th, 2022, 4:30 pm
Atla wrote: May 12th, 2022, 9:34 amAnd even if we will survive and evolve into something universal in a billion years, then why does existence seem to be centered on us, here and now, and not on those universal beings? (I know this is the weirdest of arguments and maybe there is something to it, maybe not.)
Not weird to me. Post-humans in space a billion years hence seeing themselves as evolved humans is akin to humanity seeing itself today as evolved microbes. IMO by far the biggest mistake of truth-seekers is not just anthropocentrism, but extreme anthropocentrism.
That's not what I meant, forget anthropocentrism. I'm saying that existence somehow seems to be literally centered here, now! Instead of then and there.
I cannot forget anthropocentrism - it is philosophical cancer responsible for much damage, confusion and delusion.

Surely existence only seems to be centred here due to the limits of our perception, especially in knowing space events that occurred billions of years ago.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

Post by Atla »

Sy Borg wrote: May 12th, 2022, 9:04 pm I cannot forget anthropocentrism - it is philosophical cancer responsible for much damage, confusion and delusion.

Surely existence only seems to be centred here due to the limits of our perception, especially in knowing space events that occurred billions of years ago.
Why are you so sure?
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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siva wrote: May 12th, 2022, 5:23 pm Oh, you mean after the space/time/causation universe came into existence, are you asking why did it evolve into this form and not something else? That is scientifically answerable by the laws of physics, mathematics and evolution. And I assume you are not asking why the laws of physics, math and evolution are not different than it IS now. The answer to the latter is same as the question as how does space/time/causation emerge from consciousness.
I'm asking why they aren't different, there seems to be an unfathomably low chance for the laws and constants to be just right for intelligent life, yet here we are.
In pure nondualism everything IS the universal consciousness, there is no emergence so that doesn't answer it.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Atla wrote: May 12th, 2022, 11:30 pm
Sy Borg wrote: May 12th, 2022, 9:04 pm I cannot forget anthropocentrism - it is philosophical cancer responsible for much damage, confusion and delusion.

Surely existence only seems to be centred here due to the limits of our perception, especially in knowing space events that occurred billions of years ago.
Why are you so sure?
Probabilities. Because I think it unlikely that just one of the trillions of planetary systems over billions of years managed some steps that may not be common but most likely not unique like the assembling of complex sugars into replicators, the complexification of replicating molecules to what we call "life", multicellularity when bacteria were engulfed by archaea, the development of intelligence and so on.

Also, the universe is thought to be many times larger than the observable universe, further reducing the probabilities.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Atla wrote: May 12th, 2022, 4:29 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 12th, 2022, 4:01 pm Anyway, I’d say that if there ever was a Universal occurrence, that would be the occurrence of existence itself. A so-called occurrences “of” occurrences, that is.
nah, I think that doesn't mean anything
Well, that's sort of the point really.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Atla wrote: May 11th, 2022, 11:11 am I checked every idea I could find about "why are we here", all the answers that people have come up with throughout histroy, all these millennia. I considered them all and I think they all fail. So we probably have to look in higher dimensions.
Or maybe it's the case that the 'answers' we have come up with are ... speculation, made in the absence of data or other justification(s)? "Why?" questions, generally, cannot be answered conclusively. We can only guess. But your objection to this is that you aren't convinced by the guesses we have so far come up with? Fair enough; they're guesses. Should we really be surprised at this?
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Sy Borg wrote: May 13th, 2022, 2:08 am
Atla wrote: May 12th, 2022, 11:30 pm
Sy Borg wrote: May 12th, 2022, 9:04 pm I cannot forget anthropocentrism - it is philosophical cancer responsible for much damage, confusion and delusion.

Surely existence only seems to be centred here due to the limits of our perception, especially in knowing space events that occurred billions of years ago.
Why are you so sure?
Probabilities. Because I think it unlikely that just one of the trillions of planetary systems over billions of years managed some steps that may not be common but most likely not unique like the assembling of complex sugars into replicators, the complexification of replicating molecules to what we call "life", multicellularity when bacteria were engulfed by archaea, the development of intelligence and so on.

Also, the universe is thought to be many times larger than the observable universe, further reducing the probabilities.
Actually it goes way beyond that, when we assume infinite possibilities, then we have also assumed infinitely many worlds with intelligent life in them. We have also assumed intelligent beings far beyond humans. (If probabilities work the way I assume they work, then the more advanced those beings are, the rarer they are / the more complex a universe is, the rarer it is. But it goes up to infinity.)

The point I'm trying to make is that despite all this, existence seems to be centered on us anyway (or at least one or a few of us). The world is happening here, now, more or less from the prespective of these humans.

Maybe that means something, maybe it doesn't. I think it does but I'm not sure.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 4:44 am
Atla wrote: May 12th, 2022, 4:29 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 12th, 2022, 4:01 pm Anyway, I’d say that if there ever was a Universal occurrence, that would be the occurrence of existence itself. A so-called occurrences “of” occurrences, that is.
nah, I think that doesn't mean anything
Well, that's sort of the point really.
I meant an occurrence within existence that may be universal in "scale".
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 7:45 am
Atla wrote: May 11th, 2022, 11:11 am I checked every idea I could find about "why are we here", all the answers that people have come up with throughout histroy, all these millennia. I considered them all and I think they all fail. So we probably have to look in higher dimensions.
Or maybe it's the case that the 'answers' we have come up with are ... speculation, made in the absence of data or other justification(s)? "Why?" questions, generally, cannot be answered conclusively. We can only guess. But your objection to this is that you aren't convinced by the guesses we have so far come up with? Fair enough; they're guesses. Should we really be surprised at this?
Of course they are guesses, I meant that I consider it too unlikely that any of them are correct. Some are better some are worse but the better ones still seem too unlikely.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Atla wrote: May 11th, 2022, 11:11 am I checked every idea I could find about "why are we here", all the answers that people have come up with throughout histroy, all these millennia. I considered them all and I think they all fail. So we probably have to look in higher dimensions.
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 7:45 am Or maybe it's the case that the 'answers' we have come up with are ... speculation, made in the absence of data or other justification(s)? "Why?" questions, generally, cannot be answered conclusively. We can only guess. But your objection to this is that you aren't convinced by the guesses we have so far come up with? Fair enough; they're guesses. Should we really be surprised at this?
Atla wrote: May 13th, 2022, 8:34 am Of course they are guesses, I meant that I consider it too unlikely that any of them are correct. Some are better some are worse but the better ones still seem too unlikely.
Then offer your own, better, guesses. That's really the only available option, isn't it? What do you think are the most likely or plausible ideas?
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 8:56 am Then offer your own, better, guesses. That's really the only available option, isn't it? What do you think are the most likely or plausible ideas?
As I said, I won't
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Atla wrote: May 13th, 2022, 8:29 am The point I'm trying to make is that despite all this, existence seems to be centered on us anyway (or at least one or a few of us). The world is happening here, now, more or less from the perspective of these humans.
This is a very strongly human-centric point of view, which places huge importance on humanity, which (as far as we know) is just a tribe of apes on one small planet. Just one species on one planet.

There are between 100 and 400 BILLION stars in our galaxy (never mind the whole universe!), and around 20-80 billion potentially-life-supporting planets (we think). And, in the light of this, you think that something as infinite as "existence" centres on us? Just us? Only us? I'm sorry, I find this perspective to be highly unlikely, pretty extreme, and far too self-important, if a species can be self-important, that is.
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 8:56 am Then offer your own, better, guesses. That's really the only available option, isn't it? What do you think are the most likely or plausible ideas?
Atla wrote: May 13th, 2022, 9:04 am As I said, I won't
<baffled>

Then what is your contribution to this thread? You started it, yet you refuse to say exactly what it's about, or what you think about it. What do you have to offer? [This is a serious and sincere question, not some sort of neurotypical insult or challenge. I just don't understand.]
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 9:13 am
Atla wrote: May 13th, 2022, 8:29 am The point I'm trying to make is that despite all this, existence seems to be centered on us anyway (or at least one or a few of us). The world is happening here, now, more or less from the perspective of these humans.
This is a very strongly human-centric point of view, which places huge importance on humanity, which (as far as we know) is just a tribe of apes on one small planet. Just one species on one planet.

There are between 100 and 400 BILLION stars in our galaxy (never mind the whole universe!), and around 20-80 billion potentially-life-supporting planets (we think). And, in the light of this, you think that something as infinite as "existence" centres on us? Just us? Only us? I'm sorry, I find this perspective to be highly unlikely, pretty extreme, and far too self-important, if a species can be self-important, that is.
I don't think any of those duh
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Re: A common mistake "truth-seekers" probably make

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 9:15 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 13th, 2022, 8:56 am Then offer your own, better, guesses. That's really the only available option, isn't it? What do you think are the most likely or plausible ideas?
Atla wrote: May 13th, 2022, 9:04 am As I said, I won't
<baffled>

Then what is your contribution to this thread? You started it, yet you refuse to say exactly what it's about, or what you think about it. What do you have to offer? [This is a serious and sincere question, not some sort of neurotypical insult or challenge. I just don't understand.]
The thread title is "A common mistake truth-seekers probably make" not "Atla's best guess on said truth".
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