What philosophy offends you most?
- chewybrian
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What philosophy offends you most?
I mean to ask: which schools of thought or particular philosophers or ideas do you find most hurtful to the progress of philosophy, or of mankind? What ideas are contrary to the true spirit of philosophy? Of course, we could argue about what that spirit is, but for a starter, let's just say it is the love of wisdom. Such love would seemingly include the pursuit of objective truth. Further, I think we should be chasing ideal and just methods for living well and for allowing as many others as possible to do the same, both now and after we are gone.
So, in that sense, what are the most harmful or just plain pathetic ideas out there which are embraced by would-be philosophers and perhaps spread to the rest of society?
- chewybrian
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
The conceit comes when the libertarian conveniently forgets all that has been done for them and continues to be done for them all the time. We were all young and completely, then relatively, helpless and unable to fend for ourselves. Even as we get older and stronger, every moment we are helped along by the efforts of others. There are complex systems ever-ready for us for delivering power and water, making travel easier, protecting us from disease, criminals or invaders. It's pretty easy (if we are not trying to be objective!) to take all those things for granted and feel like we have accomplished some great thing on our own.
The projection comes when we assume that others might be failing (in our eyes) because they did not make enough effort. We project our own situation and abilities and emotional and mental stability (assuming we have those things!) onto others who may have problems and face adversity unknown to us. We might see the homeless man as fully responsible for his plight while failing to recognize that he has some form of mental illness and that such a problem could be ours one day.
I think the Ayn Rand school appeals to selfish or greedy people who want to justify and then enshrine their selfishness as a kind of virtue. I think it grabs people who might have an inkling to pursue real philosophy and pulls them back from the brink of objectivity and growth, and empowers them to toss empathy to the curb.
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
- Sculptor1
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
Yes Rand was not only a poor novelist but a mean minded thinker.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:41 am I may be swayed by others' ideas, but I will start by naming libertarianism. I think these ideas contain within them a great deal of conceit and projection and a near-complete lack of empathy.
The conceit comes when the libertarian conveniently forgets all that has been done for them and continues to be done for them all the time. We were all young and completely, then relatively, helpless and unable to fend for ourselves. Even as we get older and stronger, every moment we are helped along by the efforts of others. There are complex systems ever-ready for us for delivering power and water, making travel easier, protecting us from disease, criminals or invaders. It's pretty easy (if we are not trying to be objective!) to take all those things for granted and feel like we have accomplished some great thing on our own.
The projection comes when we assume that others might be failing (in our eyes) because they did not make enough effort. We project our own situation and abilities and emotional and mental stability (assuming we have those things!) onto others who may have problems and face adversity unknown to us. We might see the homeless man as fully responsible for his plight while failing to recognize that he has some form of mental illness and that such a problem could be ours one day.
I think the Ayn Rand school appeals to selfish or greedy people who want to justify and then enshrine their selfishness as a kind of virtue. I think it grabs people who might have an inkling to pursue real philosophy and pulls them back from the brink of objectivity and growth, and empowers them to toss empathy to the curb.
Cheap ideas playing to the rabble, poor conceived and utterly desolate; inhuman.
She seems to take the level worst in human behaviour of the psychopath and elevate it to a virtue; the nastier the better.
- JackDaydream
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
Your question strikes me as a bit strange because, surely, it is not philosophies which are problematic but the way are used or imposed. Everyone is entitled to think as they wish but when ideas are used in such a way as to make others feel inferior, or abused in power dynamics of human relationships and social groups is where the problem lies.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:34 am I don't mean to ask what hurts your feelings (and I am not even sure that philosophers are supposed to have feelings which could be hurt).
I mean to ask: which schools of thought or particular philosophers or ideas do you find most hurtful to the progress of philosophy, or of mankind? What ideas are contrary to the true spirit of philosophy? Of course, we could argue about what that spirit is, but for a starter, let's just say it is the love of wisdom. Such love would seemingly include the pursuit of objective truth. Further, I think we should be chasing ideal and just methods for living well and for allowing as many others as possible to do the same, both now and after we are gone.
So, in that sense, what are the most harmful or just plain pathetic ideas out there which are embraced by would-be philosophers and perhaps spread to the rest of society?
You speak of how philosophy 'offends' and the nature of being offended is worth thinking about. If I am offended it is about feeling slighted in some way or another. It is about the power which I give to a certain set of ideas, which is bound up with those ideas and associated values. To be offended by ideas or philosophy would be connected with the personal associations and what is projected onto that philosophy.
So, what I am saying is that to be offended by a certain philosophy is complex in relation to personal values and personal experiences. Also, it is not necessarily ideas which are problematic but the way in which they are used in power dynamics of human interaction. With regard to your reference to 'pathetic ideas', this could imply ideas which don't stand the test of reason. The issue which I see is not about ranking ideas but seeing there basis logic, or lack of it, as well as the specific use of ideas as ideologies, which is a slightly different issue.
- chewybrian
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
I am really struggling to understand your struggle with what I said. The bit you quoted and responded to seems clear as day as I re-read it now. I specifically said I am not asking about hurt feelings. I don't mean "offended" in that sense. I mean to ask what offends your sensibilities as a philosopher. What seems rather obviously untrue and/or likely to lead folks in the wrong direction?JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 5:30 pmYour question strikes me as a bit strange because, surely, it is not philosophies which are problematic but the way are used or imposed. Everyone is entitled to think as they wish but when ideas are used in such a way as to make others feel inferior, or abused in power dynamics of human relationships and social groups is where the problem lies.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:34 am I don't mean to ask what hurts your feelings (and I am not even sure that philosophers are supposed to have feelings which could be hurt).
I mean to ask: which schools of thought or particular philosophers or ideas do you find most hurtful to the progress of philosophy, or of mankind? What ideas are contrary to the true spirit of philosophy? Of course, we could argue about what that spirit is, but for a starter, let's just say it is the love of wisdom. Such love would seemingly include the pursuit of objective truth. Further, I think we should be chasing ideal and just methods for living well and for allowing as many others as possible to do the same, both now and after we are gone.
So, in that sense, what are the most harmful or just plain pathetic ideas out there which are embraced by would-be philosophers and perhaps spread to the rest of society?
You speak of how philosophy 'offends' and the nature of being offended is worth thinking about. If I am offended it is about feeling slighted in some way or another. It is about the power which I give to a certain set of ideas, which is bound up with those ideas and associated values. To be offended by ideas or philosophy would be connected with the personal associations and what is projected onto that philosophy.
So, what I am saying is that to be offended by a certain philosophy is complex in relation to personal values and personal experiences. Also, it is not necessarily ideas which are problematic but the way in which they are used in power dynamics of human interaction. With regard to your reference to 'pathetic ideas', this could imply ideas which don't stand the test of reason. The issue which I see is not about ranking ideas but seeing there basis logic, or lack of it, as well as the specific use of ideas as ideologies, which is a slightly different issue.
I am troubled by your idea that ideas are not dangerous in and of themselves. Do you think "no harm no foul" if I go around spouting Nazi ideas and trying to inspire others to agree with me, as long as I don't fire up the ovens? I think we've seen here in the U.S. in the last decade or so that ideas are dangerous and that our leaders and those in the public eye should be more careful what ideas they embrace and profess, lest they inspire horrible acts in others.
You, as a would-be philosopher, can probably stand up to ideas and judge them well enough on their own merit without being easily swayed by rhetoric and half-truths. But, clearly we cannot project that ability onto the general public and assume they can easily do the same. If you lie to people often enough and well enough (the bar really isn't that high, actually...), then many of them will begin to believe the lie. This is a dangerous and malevolent act if you are in a position of trust and choose to do this.
Does it stand the test of reason that Trump had the election stolen from him, when all the courts ruled there was zero basis for his claim? Well, the majority of Republicans believe that the election was stolen:
https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/12/1 ... m-you-ask/
Trump's repetition of this lie was a malevolent act that eroded trust in our government and sowed seeds of hate across our country. We went backwards as a society because this one man chose to put himself above all else, and because society at large is not filled with would-be philosophers.
I gave what I thought was one of the easiest examples of what I was after in my reply. Rand tries to establish selfishness as a virtue and argue that none of us owe anything to our fellow man, that we would be better of on the whole if we all took what we could get all the time. I think this is a horrible idea that lots of people use to justify all sorts of selfish acts and to avoid learning empathy and understanding for their fellow man. This empathy and understanding, I think, could help to prevent a lot of trouble in the world.
- JackDaydream
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
It still seems to me that you are talking about ideologies as a source of power and control. I know that you say that it is not about 'hurt feelings'' but philosophy does involve thinking about feelings rather mere logic. For example, when I think of the horrors of Nazism it is not simply about reason and logic but my sense of feelings as a human being, possibly moral feelings.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 7:21 pmI am really struggling to understand your struggle with what I said. The bit you quoted and responded to seems clear as day as I re-read it now. I specifically said I am not asking about hurt feelings. I don't mean "offended" in that sense. I mean to ask what offends your sensibilities as a philosopher. What seems rather obviously untrue and/or likely to lead folks in the wrong direction?JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 5:30 pmYour question strikes me as a bit strange because, surely, it is not philosophies which are problematic but the way are used or imposed. Everyone is entitled to think as they wish but when ideas are used in such a way as to make others feel inferior, or abused in power dynamics of human relationships and social groups is where the problem lies.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:34 am I don't mean to ask what hurts your feelings (and I am not even sure that philosophers are supposed to have feelings which could be hurt).
I mean to ask: which schools of thought or particular philosophers or ideas do you find most hurtful to the progress of philosophy, or of mankind? What ideas are contrary to the true spirit of philosophy? Of course, we could argue about what that spirit is, but for a starter, let's just say it is the love of wisdom. Such love would seemingly include the pursuit of objective truth. Further, I think we should be chasing ideal and just methods for living well and for allowing as many others as possible to do the same, both now and after we are gone.
So, in that sense, what are the most harmful or just plain pathetic ideas out there which are embraced by would-be philosophers and perhaps spread to the rest of society?
You speak of how philosophy 'offends' and the nature of being offended is worth thinking about. If I am offended it is about feeling slighted in some way or another. It is about the power which I give to a certain set of ideas, which is bound up with those ideas and associated values. To be offended by ideas or philosophy would be connected with the personal associations and what is projected onto that philosophy.
So, what I am saying is that to be offended by a certain philosophy is complex in relation to personal values and personal experiences. Also, it is not necessarily ideas which are problematic but the way in which they are used in power dynamics of human interaction. With regard to your reference to 'pathetic ideas', this could imply ideas which don't stand the test of reason. The issue which I see is not about ranking ideas but seeing there basis logic, or lack of it, as well as the specific use of ideas as ideologies, which is a slightly different issue.
I am troubled by your idea that ideas are not dangerous in and of themselves. Do you think "no harm no foul" if I go around spouting Nazi ideas and trying to inspire others to agree with me, as long as I don't fire up the ovens? I think we've seen here in the U.S. in the last decade or so that ideas are dangerous and that our leaders and those in the public eye should be more careful what ideas they embrace and profess, lest they inspire horrible acts in others.
You, as a would-be philosopher, can probably stand up to ideas and judge them well enough on their own merit without being easily swayed by rhetoric and half-truths. But, clearly we cannot project that ability onto the general public and assume they can easily do the same. If you lie to people often enough and well enough (the bar really isn't that high, actually...), then many of them will begin to believe the lie. This is a dangerous and malevolent act if you are in a position of trust and choose to do this.
Does it stand the test of reason that Trump had the election stolen from him, when all the courts ruled there was zero basis for his claim? Well, the majority of Republicans believe that the election was stolen:
https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/12/1 ... m-you-ask/
Trump's repetition of this lie was a malevolent act that eroded trust in our government and sowed seeds of hate across our country. We went backwards as a society because this one man chose to put himself above all else, and because society at large is not filled with would-be philosophers.
I gave what I thought was one of the easiest examples of what I was after in my reply. Rand tries to establish selfishness as a virtue and argue that none of us owe anything to our fellow man, that we would be better of on the whole if we all took what we could get all the time. I think this is a horrible idea that lots of people use to justify all sorts of selfish acts and to avoid learning empathy and understanding for their fellow man. This empathy and understanding, I think, could help to prevent a lot of trouble in the world.
It does seem that you are suggesting that the majority of people are not able to think about what is happening in the world. This is about indoctrination, but it may not simply be about this but lack of means to speak out about belief. Even though I write on this site, I don't really feel that my own views count for much in England, where I live. The apparent lack of critical thought of many citizens may not be always be about all people being unable to question but about being silenced through lack of power and voice politically.
My issue with the specific question is more about its framing. At face value, it is more about what does one dislike within philosophy, but I know you are really asking more about areas of thought which seem problematic. The other person who has responded to the post has spoken of finding difficulties with religious philosophy. Many people do and I struggle with aspects of the Catholic philosophy which I was taught. But, this still comes down to the use of ideas as a source of oppression, Your question is so general, and people may have many aspects which they find offensive, because philosophical sensitivity may come from many different angles, depending on individuals' unique experiences.
I know that you speak of the use of negative ideas to be replaced by empathy, but there is still the danger of trying to tell people what to think. As it is, the problem may be that those in positions of power have more influence in the art of persuasion through power and dominance
- chewybrian
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
I don't see that it should or must. A couple more examples of ideas I find distasteful would be determinism and idealism. I don't think that many people feel they are being repressed or brainwashed by these ideas, and you may not even see them much outside philosophy. These ideas are not so much about control of others as they are about our own power to control our destiny or the nature of the world.JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 8:14 pmBut, this still comes down to the use of ideas as a source of oppression...
Certainly we are influenced and even created and built up by the forces outside our mind. Yet, just as certainly, I am free to decide what to eat for breakfast. To take things to the extreme where all actions are predetermined removes all meaning from life. Why should I get off the couch or try to do anything if I will only do precisely what the past dictates? Determinism has a nugget of useful truth in it. We should be aware of outside influences so that we can try to undo cognitive biases, for example. But, it throws out the baby with the bathwater when it denies real choice.
Idealism has a lesson for us, too. We should be aware that we have no direct and infallible connection with reality. Our understanding of the world is constructed within our minds. Yet, it seems silly and unproductive to assume or believe that there is nothing outside our minds. I am able to feel a categorical difference between my own thoughts and impressions received about the outside world through various senses. It is beyond reasonable to assume that there is a world outside my mind, but still useful to see that I can't perceive the facts of it directly.
I hope so; that's what makes these discussions interesting and occasionally productive.JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 8:14 pmYour question is so general, and people may have many aspects which they find offensive, because philosophical sensitivity may come from many different angles, depending on individuals' unique experiences.
Any good idea can be misused. The truth can be abused, for example, by telling part of it and concealing the rest, trying to lead your audience to a false conclusion so that you can control them through fear and greed. But, the philosopher, I assume, is after the truth, and tries to accept and embrace it and act rationally upon its implications. I am more concerned here with questions like: "what is true?" than "how can the truth be abused?". (though I don't mind if you want to drift about)JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 8:14 pmI know that you speak of the use of negative ideas to be replaced by empathy, but there is still the danger of trying to tell people what to think. As it is, the problem may be that those in positions of power have more influence in the art of persuasion through power and dominance
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
For me, it is the extreme examples. This applies beyond philosophy too, of course. These extreme examples tend toward dogmatism, and a One and Only Truth. Philosophy is, in the end, a connected and interconnected collection of wisdom (?), and no example so 'independent' as not to connect to the other stuff contributes in a worthwhile manner.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 19th, 2022, 10:34 am I mean to ask: which schools of thought or particular philosophers or ideas do you find most hurtful to the progress of philosophy, or of mankind?
What ideas are contrary to the true spirit of philosophy?
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
I think religion is about things that cannot be shown to be "the case". But that's OK, because religion is qualitatively different from, say, science. Religion does not need or want the literal, precise, and 'objective' analysis that scientific subjects deserve. It's more of what we call 'metaphysical' than that, and its purpose is to point to 'deeper' truths.
Religion that proclaims The One and Only Truth, of course, is more problematic, as is any philosophy that claims such exclusivity. [Active atheism, which asserts the non-existence of God, is one such 'religion'.]
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
Generally, I am seeking truth and I probably stepped into the philosophy wilderness during adolescence and I am still in, having fun and agony, in these discussions and in my own inner wasteland. The thing is I began the journey because many of the ideas which had been taught to me didn't work, both in terms of reason or making life bearable. If I had not been aware of philosophy problems I would never have begun reading philosophy. The truth is the underlying issue but the psychological aspects may be strong. What I wonder sometimes is supposing I found a truth which messed up my thinking so much and was too unbearable to face, would I simply try to find a way to argue against it.chewybrian wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 8:04 amI don't see that it should or must. A couple more examples of ideas I find distasteful would be determinism and idealism. I don't think that many people feel they are being repressed or brainwashed by these ideas, and you may not even see them much outside philosophy. These ideas are not so much about control of others as they are about our own power to control our destiny or the nature of the world.JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 8:14 pmBut, this still comes down to the use of ideas as a source of oppression...
Certainly we are influenced and even created and built up by the forces outside our mind. Yet, just as certainly, I am free to decide what to eat for breakfast. To take things to the extreme where all actions are predetermined removes all meaning from life. Why should I get off the couch or try to do anything if I will only do precisely what the past dictates? Determinism has a nugget of useful truth in it. We should be aware of outside influences so that we can try to undo cognitive biases, for example. But, it throws out the baby with the bathwater when it denies real choice.
Idealism has a lesson for us, too. We should be aware that we have no direct and infallible connection with reality. Our understanding of the world is constructed within our minds. Yet, it seems silly and unproductive to assume or believe that there is nothing outside our minds. I am able to feel a categorical difference between my own thoughts and impressions received about the outside world through various senses. It is beyond reasonable to assume that there is a world outside my mind, but still useful to see that I can't perceive the facts of it directly.
I hope so; that's what makes these discussions interesting and occasionally productive.JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 8:14 pmYour question is so general, and people may have many aspects which they find offensive, because philosophical sensitivity may come from many different angles, depending on individuals' unique experiences.
Any good idea can be misused. The truth can be abused, for example, by telling part of it and concealing the rest, trying to lead your audience to a false conclusion so that you can control them through fear and greed. But, the philosopher, I assume, is after the truth, and tries to accept and embrace it and act rationally upon its implications. I am more concerned here with questions like: "what is true?" than "how can the truth be abused?". (though I don't mind if you want to drift about)JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 20th, 2022, 8:14 pmI know that you speak of the use of negative ideas to be replaced by empathy, but there is still the danger of trying to tell people what to think. As it is, the problem may be that those in positions of power have more influence in the art of persuasion through power and dominance
I guess that the reason behind the specific answers which I have given to your question is that I think that the actual words of your question contain a certain amount of truth. What I am saying is that it may be that a large motivational aspect of philosophy searching is about finding ideas which are compatible with the way each person wishes to see the world. In other words, I am saying that in some ways the philosophies which a person is drawn to may be influenced to a large extent by likes, dislikes and offences, including hurt feelings. Here, I am putting philosophy on the analyst's couch.
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
This is a very human thing that you describe. We ignore things we can't get our heads around. Just look at our individual and collective response to climate-change-related eco-collapse. The thought of giving up the luxuries that we value, just because having those luxuries is destroying our home, is something our selfishness won't allow us to face. Ecology is just an example here; my main point is that you have correctly described a fundamental part of being human.JackDaydream wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 9:16 am What I wonder sometimes is supposing I found a truth which messed up my thinking so much and was too unbearable to face, would I simply try to find a way to argue against it.
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
SO you area saying that the "facts" upon which religions rely are not held to be true. I think there would be many followers of religion that would take exception to that view.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 8:45 amI think religion is about things that cannot be shown to be "the case". But that's OK, because religion is qualitatively different from, say, science. Religion does not need or want the literal, precise, and 'objective' analysis that scientific subjects deserve. It's more of what we call 'metaphysical' than that, and its purpose is to point to 'deeper' truths.
Religion is not even metaphysical. Metaphysical implies physicality. Chemical, biological and physics concepts are truly metaphysical since they are interpretive extrapolations from observed phenomena. Things fall down and gravity is the metaphysical corollary.
And that is precisely the way that religion has been used to control people for thousands of years.
Religion that proclaims The One and Only Truth, of course, is more problematic, as is any philosophy that claims such exclusivity. [Active atheism, which asserts the non-existence of God, is one such 'religion'.]
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 8:45 am I think religion is about things that cannot be shown to be "the case". But that's OK, because religion is qualitatively different from, say, science. Religion does not need or want the literal, precise, and 'objective' analysis that scientific subjects deserve. It's more of what we call 'metaphysical' than that, and its purpose is to point to 'deeper' truths.
Please don't post straw-man constructs. I said no such thing, as anyone can see by reading the above.
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Re: What philosophy offends you most?
You know, as we all do, the meaning that metaphysics carries in modern times, the meaning used on philosophy forums and similar discussion-places. It has nothing to do with physics. But you don't need to be told this; you already know.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 21st, 2022, 11:45 am Religion is not even metaphysical. Metaphysical implies physicality. Chemical, biological and physics concepts are truly metaphysical since they are interpretive extrapolations from observed phenomena. Things fall down and gravity is the metaphysical corollary.
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