Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote:As for the above, I didn't ask my question clearly enough. I intended to ask, is the mind distinct from the body, such that it would be valid to consider each separately and independently, and still have a reasonable expectation of reaching meaningful and helpful conclusions? [My answer would be "no".]

That's quite a wordy question, I admit. But I think and hope it's the question I intended to ask.
Gertie wrote: June 15th, 2022, 5:44 pm Okey doke, what sort of meaningful and helpful conclusions are you thinking of PC?
I wasn't. The reference to conclusions was attached to the potential course of action I described. I'm just trying to ask "if we divide mind and body, and consider them quite separately, as independent elements, is this valid?" In other words, if we do as I have described, dividing mind and body (instead of considering them together, as indivisible parts of a single whole), then would the conclusions we reached be valid?

And my own answer to that is, of course, "no".
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Gertie
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Gertie »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 9:21 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:As for the above, I didn't ask my question clearly enough. I intended to ask, is the mind distinct from the body, such that it would be valid to consider each separately and independently, and still have a reasonable expectation of reaching meaningful and helpful conclusions? [My answer would be "no".]

That's quite a wordy question, I admit. But I think and hope it's the question I intended to ask.
Gertie wrote: June 15th, 2022, 5:44 pm Okey doke, what sort of meaningful and helpful conclusions are you thinking of PC?
I wasn't. The reference to conclusions was attached to the potential course of action I described. I'm just trying to ask "if we divide mind and body, and consider them quite separately, as independent elements, is this valid?" In other words, if we do as I have described, dividing mind and body (instead of considering them together, as indivisible parts of a single whole), then would the conclusions we reached be valid?

And my own answer to that is, of course, "no".
I'd say it's valid in some ways, because they have different properties. But they're not independant, because we've observed neural correlation seems to hold. There's a mind-body relationship of some sort which means affecting one affects the other. We know that much.

But the nature of that relationship, what underlies the correlation, is a mystery. If you're a physicalist monist for example and believe experience is ontologically reducible to physical brain processes, then it's indivisible in that it's all fundamentally aspects of the same substance. Like ice and water are states of H2O molecules. But that's one hypothesis amongst many. If you're a substance dualist or panpsychist you might have a different answer. But nobody knows.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Gertie wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:02 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 9:21 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:As for the above, I didn't ask my question clearly enough. I intended to ask, is the mind distinct from the body, such that it would be valid to consider each separately and independently, and still have a reasonable expectation of reaching meaningful and helpful conclusions? [My answer would be "no".]

That's quite a wordy question, I admit. But I think and hope it's the question I intended to ask.
Gertie wrote: June 15th, 2022, 5:44 pm Okey doke, what sort of meaningful and helpful conclusions are you thinking of PC?
I wasn't. The reference to conclusions was attached to the potential course of action I described. I'm just trying to ask "if we divide mind and body, and consider them quite separately, as independent elements, is this valid?" In other words, if we do as I have described, dividing mind and body (instead of considering them together, as indivisible parts of a single whole), then would the conclusions we reached be valid?

And my own answer to that is, of course, "no".
I'd say it's valid in some ways, because they have different properties. But they're not independant, because we've observed neural correlation seems to hold. There's a mind-body relationship of some sort which means affecting one affects the other. We know that much.

But the nature of that relationship, what underlies the correlation, is a mystery. If you're a physicalist monist for example and believe experience is ontologically reducible to physical brain processes, then it's indivisible in that it's all fundamentally aspects of the same substance. Like ice and water are states of H2O molecules. But that's one hypothesis amongst many. If you're a substance dualist or panpsychist you might have a different answer. But nobody knows.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that there are, or could be, circumstances where considering the mind (or the body) as an independent, er, element, might give rise to correct and useful ("valid") conclusions. Is that right?
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Gertie
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Gertie »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:44 am
Gertie wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:02 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 9:21 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:As for the above, I didn't ask my question clearly enough. I intended to ask, is the mind distinct from the body, such that it would be valid to consider each separately and independently, and still have a reasonable expectation of reaching meaningful and helpful conclusions? [My answer would be "no".]

That's quite a wordy question, I admit. But I think and hope it's the question I intended to ask.
Gertie wrote: June 15th, 2022, 5:44 pm Okey doke, what sort of meaningful and helpful conclusions are you thinking of PC?
I wasn't. The reference to conclusions was attached to the potential course of action I described. I'm just trying to ask "if we divide mind and body, and consider them quite separately, as independent elements, is this valid?" In other words, if we do as I have described, dividing mind and body (instead of considering them together, as indivisible parts of a single whole), then would the conclusions we reached be valid?

And my own answer to that is, of course, "no".
I'd say it's valid in some ways, because they have different properties. But they're not independant, because we've observed neural correlation seems to hold. There's a mind-body relationship of some sort which means affecting one affects the other. We know that much.

But the nature of that relationship, what underlies the correlation, is a mystery. If you're a physicalist monist for example and believe experience is ontologically reducible to physical brain processes, then it's indivisible in that it's all fundamentally aspects of the same substance. Like ice and water are states of H2O molecules. But that's one hypothesis amongst many. If you're a substance dualist or panpsychist you might have a different answer. But nobody knows.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that there are, or could be, circumstances where considering the mind (or the body) as an independent, er, element, might give rise to correct and useful ("valid") conclusions. Is that right?
Yes. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/#VarDuaOnt
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Gertie wrote: June 16th, 2022, 11:54 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:44 am
Gertie wrote: June 16th, 2022, 10:02 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 9:21 am



I wasn't. The reference to conclusions was attached to the potential course of action I described. I'm just trying to ask "if we divide mind and body, and consider them quite separately, as independent elements, is this valid?" In other words, if we do as I have described, dividing mind and body (instead of considering them together, as indivisible parts of a single whole), then would the conclusions we reached be valid?

And my own answer to that is, of course, "no".
I'd say it's valid in some ways, because they have different properties. But they're not independant, because we've observed neural correlation seems to hold. There's a mind-body relationship of some sort which means affecting one affects the other. We know that much.

But the nature of that relationship, what underlies the correlation, is a mystery. If you're a physicalist monist for example and believe experience is ontologically reducible to physical brain processes, then it's indivisible in that it's all fundamentally aspects of the same substance. Like ice and water are states of H2O molecules. But that's one hypothesis amongst many. If you're a substance dualist or panpsychist you might have a different answer. But nobody knows.
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that there are, or could be, circumstances where considering the mind (or the body) as an independent, er, element, might give rise to correct and useful ("valid") conclusions. Is that right?
Yes. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/#VarDuaOnt
😃 The arguments I am using here are, in general, those that might be used to oppose a dualistic approach. Although 'common sense' might indicate that a holistic approach is the only guaranteed-sound approach to investigating the world, I wonder if there is anything more concrete than this? Do we, for example, know whether dualism has provided useful, or misleading, insights? Has the work been done to quantify the success of a holistic approach, or to directly compare holism with reductionist dualism?

We could really do with some more information, to enhance the somewhat-approximate 'common sense' approach. 😉 There's a fair amount of nutty stuff on the interweb, unsurprisingly. This is the only vaguely-rational piece I could find.
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Rende
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Rende »

Once I had an experience of being alive, part of the world, everything seemed clear. But it was the effect of the weed cookies I consumed for the second time in my life. So there must be, as said before by some, an overlap where the concious becomes concious of its conciousness. Or something like this. 
The answer to a problem usually lies in the solution. The world is bigger than us. Life always finds a path.
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Rende
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Rende »

I would say that I am a whole, but only my mind is what I perceive. Next, being aware of perceiving is totally impossible because I'm not outside of me. But I am only what I precive no matter what, even if I'm not aware of it.
The answer to a problem usually lies in the solution. The world is bigger than us. Life always finds a path.
Atla
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2022, 10:37 am First, I am always a little bit wary of our use of the computer analogy for the brain-mind. The analogy is a good and useful one, but it carries with it the temptation to extend the analogy beyond its usefulness. We humans have a habit of using the most advanced tech we have at the time as an analogy for the brain-mind. A couple of centuries ago, it was apparently common to compare the brain-mind with an automated loom!

OK, so there is what we would call "processing" in the brain-mind, but it isn't anything like the processing in a modern computer. It is both more and less; slower, and faster too, in some ways. Computers are networks of interconnected transistors; brain-minds are networks of interconnected neurons. There we should stop, as we have reached the useful limit of the analogy. The brain-mind operates in a manner qualitatively distinct from computers.
Looms, then steam engines, then computers. :) So now people say stuff like, the brain is the hardware and the mind is the software. Body vs mind, just like matter vs information. It's all just confusion.
Or even better: the mind emerges from the computational complexity of the brain.
The influence of knowing (becoming aware of) some of the grey area on personality is interesting too. There are many proverbs along the lines of 'know thyself', probably with good reason. Such knowledge could indeed affect the outward seeming of personality.
Not just outward seeming. I think most good therapies focus on uncovering what is lurking in the subconscious. And that can really change the personality to some degree, sometimes drastically.
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Rende
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Rende »

I think we humans, well we get it all wrong concsiousness can't exist outside of our world. What is my world, well nothing but the world. What is to be conscious, of the world or my world? Essence is not observable within the world but is the world and that's all. Consciousness is something like I know that I am. Really?
The answer to a problem usually lies in the solution. The world is bigger than us. Life always finds a path.
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Rende
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Re: Is your non-conscious mind part of YOU?

Post by Rende »

I think you can't feel reality, like you can't feel you died, so you also can't feel you are alive. It's because mind already is reality. Like something can't be something twice in reality. So it's just not reality, but it is. 
So addressing this question in reality, it does not have a point like everything, its all nothing but reality. I could say my subconcious is part of me or I could say it's not part of me, but in reality I could never know this, because I am the one who says I know.
It's hard to explain with words what I am thinking.
The answer to a problem usually lies in the solution. The world is bigger than us. Life always finds a path.
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