How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

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JackDaydream
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by JackDaydream »

snt wrote: June 17th, 2022, 10:57 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 17th, 2022, 7:55 am
snt wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:02 pm The ethical rules and politics is of a form that can be written down in books and is therefore empirical.
OK, that's a meaning of "empirical" that is, er, not typical, IME.

Would you say, then, that quantum theory is empirical: it can be described in books...? What about the possibility that we might be brains-in-vats? That too can be described in books. When almost anything can be captured in a book, it seems a little rash to say that all such things are "empirical", don't you think?
An a priori aspect as ground for morality would not be definable and therefore cannot be written down in a book or in rules.

Morality as I perceive it would concern an everlasting quest into good in the face of an unknown future. The result of that quest is a sort of intellectual light into the world (from the inside out) that empirically can be described as the potential for reason-ableness.

With regard the attempt to address aspects of non-empirical nature at the foundation of reality. Chinese philosopher Laozi (Lao Tzu) has attempted it in book Tao Te Ching. The book starts with the following:

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name."

What is the meaning of an insight that logic would attempt to unlock (an insight into the origin of reason itself) when the insight that it unlocks cannot be Said?

One would enter the field of poetry that attempts to use language to transfer insight into experience that would then need to function as an addition to supplement logical reasoning to provide it with a ground to venture beyond the limit of its own origin.

The book Tao Te Ching is written as a poem for that purpose.

The French philosopher Emmanuel Levinas addresses it in his concept The duality of Saying and Said.

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 17th, 2022, 7:55 amIs there a form of morality other than "human morality"?
When an a priori aspect is the ground for morality then that would imply that humans are a mere subject that perform on behalf of it.
I haven't read 'The Tao de Ching' but would like to at some point. You may have touched on an important point in seeing the scope of poetry writing for capturing aspects of morality which may be missed in the processes of abstract ideas. The sacred scriptures of various religions entered into the expression of moral truths through the form of poetry. In the twentieth first century, it may be that songs and stories, as a complementary aspect of expression to logic and science may convey important wisdom about life and human values in a way which aid the art of living.
snt
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by snt »

There may be many poets active on the forum. I noticed that a recently active user is PoeticUniverse (since 2015) who writes poems to explain the fundamental nature of reality.

User: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=45198
His topics (poems): search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=P ... mit=Search

To Be or To Become

Being or becoming: that is the question
That haunts Existence’s investigation:
Whether ’tis simpler for the All to offer
The slings and vectors of a told fortune
All at once, in a marble monument,
Or to perform in the sea of actions,
And by disposing ever create them?


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17500
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

stevie wrote: June 19th, 2022, 6:00 pm Philosophy is an instance of the human brain's capacity being lead astray by itself.
JackDaydream wrote: June 19th, 2022, 6:31 pm However, it is like that your criticism is not necessarily about this when you speak of the brain 'being led astray by itself'. Is it that you think that there is no benefit of thinking about life. The other alternative is to see it the other way round and to see the evolution of consciousness in its many forms from plants, trees, animals and human beings as being about the evolution of consciousness. Humans have language, which gives the scope for conceptual thinking, sciences, art and philosophy. So, why do you see philosophy in such a negative way?

I know that you see speculation as being futile but that could be applied to any aspect. It would be possible to see aspects of nature in general as futile. It would be possible to query whether even survival has a purpose. As it is, many in the past and probably many in the future will speculate? What is so terrible about that? The other possibility would be a condition of reduced consciousness or, maybe, the better one of increased understanding though empirical science in conjunction with conceptual analysis.
Speculation enables survival in many ways, I think. One of them is 'what if?', which enables us to plan ahead, trying to anticipate problems we might encounter while pursuing our aims? This, if nothing else, makes speculation worthwhile?
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by JackDaydream »

snt wrote: June 20th, 2022, 8:47 am There may be many poets active on the forum. I noticed that a recently active user is @PoeticUniverse (since 2015) who writes poems to explain the fundamental nature of reality.

User: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=45198
His topics (poems): search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=P ... mit=Search

To Be or To Become

Being or becoming: that is the question
That haunts Existence’s investigation:
Whether ’tis simpler for the All to offer
The slings and vectors of a told fortune
All at once, in a marble monument,
Or to perform in the sea of actions,
And by disposing ever create them?


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17500
I have had plenty of interaction with @PoeticUniverse, although not in the last few months. It is also worth looking at his artwork too. On another forum, there was a thread on the metaphysics of poetry recently which looked at the creative imagination and where it comes from as a source. Jung has spoken of symbol formation and some writers, like Hutton Smith, in his ' Forgotten Truth', which is about comparative religion has spoken of dimensions or levels, including the fourth, related to time as well as non physical ones.

The biggest area of philosophical debate here is how much is constructed in the human mind or how much lies beyond...?
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by JackDaydream »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 20th, 2022, 8:53 am
stevie wrote: June 19th, 2022, 6:00 pm Philosophy is an instance of the human brain's capacity being lead astray by itself.
JackDaydream wrote: June 19th, 2022, 6:31 pm However, it is like that your criticism is not necessarily about this when you speak of the brain 'being led astray by itself'. Is it that you think that there is no benefit of thinking about life. The other alternative is to see it the other way round and to see the evolution of consciousness in its many forms from plants, trees, animals and human beings as being about the evolution of consciousness. Humans have language, which gives the scope for conceptual thinking, sciences, art and philosophy. So, why do you see philosophy in such a negative way?

I know that you see speculation as being futile but that could be applied to any aspect. It would be possible to see aspects of nature in general as futile. It would be possible to query whether even survival has a purpose. As it is, many in the past and probably many in the future will speculate? What is so terrible about that? The other possibility would be a condition of reduced consciousness or, maybe, the better one of increased understanding though empirical science in conjunction with conceptual analysis.
Speculation enables survival in many ways, I think. One of them is 'what if?', which enables us to plan ahead, trying to anticipate problems we might encounter while pursuing our aims? This, if nothing else, makes speculation worthwhile?
Speculation is all about thinking of potential problems or benefits and is essential to all thinking about what to do on a daily basis and in the future. It is also about thinking about the past. The hardest aspect of this may be looking back and rather than ruminating on how things could have been done better is to learn from mistakes. This applies to individuals and to issues in the world historically. But, in order to make changes speculation and the 'what if' stage of thinking are an essential aspect of the brainstorming and creative process prior to all inventions and innovations.
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Cools
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by Cools »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 16th, 2022, 9:30 am
Cools wrote: June 16th, 2022, 1:53 am The Metaphysical-foundation is based upon the presumption that consciousness is, at least partially, of infinite nature, contrary to the finite nature of physics.
But metaphysics is not really infinite, but only dissociated from physicality. Its area of relevance is not defined or limited physically. That isn't really what we would mean by 'infinite', is it? 🤔
Not the best wording on my part, and I subconsciously threw in my bias there. Basically, if metaphysical consciousness exists then "you" fundamentally exist outside of physics, meaning "you" exist within or closer to a base reality than physical dimensions, and a base reality must be truly infinite in nature for existence to, well, exist. That does not inherently mean a metaphysical consciousness is fundamentally infinite in nature, you are correct.

A religious person would just say "God" is the mechanism, but I prefer more helpful explanations which require a greater command of the English language than I possess.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: How Important is Metaphysics as a Foundation for Philosophy and Ethics?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Cools wrote: August 6th, 2022, 10:45 am if metaphysical consciousness exists
then "you" fundamentally exist outside of physics, meaning "you" exist within or closer to a base reality than physical dimensions, and a base reality must be truly infinite in nature for existence to, well, exist.
What follows "if" is your premise, but what follows "then" doesn't follow from your premise, as far as I can see.
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