What is a Woman

[Consul]

Your ideas of human identity are so theoretical and I feel that you miss is the way people feel about their bodies..Identity may not be about the conceptual analysis of having a certain mind or body, but about the narrative sense of self esteem and happiness or lack of happiness with the body and how one is perceived. This may where sexuality comes into gender identity, with the body being central as a basis for relating to other persons.

It may not be about being gay or straight, because transman and transwomen present with various sexual orientations. However; the sense of ease or lack of ease may be such that the essential expression of self is uncomfortable. A sense of being a woman or a man may be about the central expression of a sense of authenticity of identity, bodily, sexually and with an authentic sense of self.

I fully acknowledge the mental reality of transsexuality as a state of dysphoria regarding one's sex, and the psychosocial problems resulting therefrom.

What exactly is "a sense of being a woman or a man", an inner sense of womanhood/femaleness or manhood/maleness? Is there really such a thing? Is that "inner sense" supposed to be a kind of emotion or a kind of introspective perception or cognition?

You can innerly (introspectively) perceive yourself (and correspondingly interpret your appearance and behavior) as feminine/masculine, non-feminine/non-masculine, or (not) very feminine/masculine, but I doubt that you can innerly (introspectively) perceive that you are female or male, i.e. just by looking into your mind or consciousness. This is not to say that there aren't any introspectable sex-specific bodily sensations such as how it feels for a man to have an erection; but these aren't the primary source of your knowledge of your sex. I knew I'm male before I had my first erection.

[JackDaydream]

Your ideas of human identity are so theoretical and I feel that you miss is the way people feel about their bodies..Identity may not be about the conceptual analysis of having a certain mind or body, but about the narrative sense of self esteem and happiness or lack of happiness with the body and how one is perceived. This may where sexuality comes into gender identity, with the body being central as a basis for relating to other persons.

It may not be about being gay or straight, because transman and transwomen present with various sexual orientations. However; the sense of ease or lack of ease may be such that the essential expression of self is uncomfortable. A sense of being a woman or a man may be about the central expression of a sense of authenticity of identity, bodily, sexually and with an authentic sense of self.

I fully acknowledge the mental reality of transsexuality as a state of dysphoria regarding one's sex, and the psychosocial problems resulting therefrom.

What exactly is "a sense of being a woman or a man", an inner sense of womanhood/femaleness or manhood/maleness? Is there really such a thing? Is that "inner sense" supposed to be a kind of emotion or a kind of introspective perception or cognition?

You can innerly (introspectively) perceive yourself (and correspondingly interpret your appearance and behavior) as feminine/masculine, non-feminine/non-masculine, or (not) very feminine/masculine, but I doubt that you can innerly (introspectively) perceive that you are female or male, i.e. just by looking into your mind or consciousness. This is not to say that there aren't any introspectable sex-specific bodily sensations such as how it feels for a man to have an erection; but these aren't the primary source of your knowledge of your sex. I knew I'm male before I had my first erection.

It may be more complicated than that because some people have times of doubt about their gender identity, especially as many people are able to see aspects of the other gender in themselves, including appearance, at times. It is not just about genitals and the physical aspects of puberty, although that has a major impact. That is why some teenagers are so desperate for puberty blockers.

However, there have been people who have transitioned as teenagers and regretted it, including one person who has risen to prominence in the UK news, Kiera Bell. She took puberty blockers, in order to transition from female to male and had other treatment and at age 21 regretted it. Some people transition and have regrets, although it is unclear how much is due to the effects of the treatment, or the prejudice which they encounter.

It is an extremely complex discussion area and I am not sure how appropriate it is for a forum discussion, because it is a sensitive topic. A couple of times I thought of writing a thread on the topic of gender but decided it may just cause trouble. I just hope that if anyone who is struggling with gender identity issues reading this thread finds some positives in it, rather than it adding to confusion. I know that you are doing some research but it may be useful for you to look at specific information about testimonies of people rather than simply the terminology of gender. And, of course, the thread question is really what it means to be a woman...

[Consul]

What exactly is "a sense of being a woman or a man", an inner sense of womanhood/femaleness or manhood/maleness? Is there really such thing? Is that "inner sense" supposed to be a kind of emotion or a kind of introspective perception or cognition?

QUOTE>
"By 'the sense of maleness' I mean the awareness I am a male. This essentially unalterable core of gender identity is to be distinguished from the related but different belief, I am manly (or masculine)."

(Stoller, Robert J. Sex and Gender: The Development of Masculinity and Femininity. 1968. Reprint, London: Karnac, 1984. p. 40)
<QUOTE

Thus defined, the sense in question is the awareness or the knowledge of one's sex. Yes, there is such a thing.

[Consul]

Thus defined, the sense in question is the awareness or the knowledge of one's sex. Yes, there is such a thing.

But there is a distinction between sense as awareness or knowledge and sense as a source of awareness and knowledge. For example, visual sensations are the source of visual knowledge, but the sensations as such aren't knowledge. What results from and is grounded in them is knowledge.

[Consul]

As far as I can see, if g-womanhood is totally independent of s-womanhood, then it can only consist in some kind of mental state or in some kind of social role. If being a s-woman means having a female body, then being a g-woman might mean having a female mind (or soul). But what does having a female mind mean? I have no idea! – And if being a g-woman means having some social role such as being a housewife, then "g-woman" is a purely functional concept that can of course be applied to s-man as well, since a s-man can do the job of a housewife.

QUOTE>
"The first distinction to make is between sex and gender. Sex refers to the biological categories of female and male, categories distinguished by genes, chromosomes, and hormones. Culture has no influence on one’s sex. Sex is a relatively stable category that is not easily changed, although recent technology has allowed people to change their biological sex. Gender, by contrast, is a much more fluid category. It refers to the social categories of male and female. These categories are distinguished from one another by a set of psychological features and role attributes that society has assigned to the biological category of sex."

(Helgeson, Vicki S. The Psychology of Gender. 4th ed. Boston: Pearson, 2012. p. 3)
<QUOTE

First of all, no, it is not the case that "recent technology has allowed people to change their biological sex," because it has merely allowed people to partly feminize or masculinize their bodies, which I think isn't the same as changing one's biological sex.

By writing that "the social categories of male and female…are distinguished from one another by a set of psychological features and role attributes that society has assigned to the biological category of sex," the author confirms my statement that "if g-womanhood is totally independent of s-womanhood, then it can only consist in some kind of mental state or in some kind of social role."

The next big problem is to develop a non-arbitrary and adequate definition of the gender-constituting kind of mental state or social role. How exactly does one have to think, feel, or behave in order to be a g-woman? Will such as definition be anything more than a hodgepodge of stereotypes?

[Astro Cat]

Okay, for the sake of the discussion, let's distinguish between "s(ex)-female"/"s(ex)-woman" and "g(ender)-female"/"g(ender)-woman". What's the general definition of the latter? Above you implicitly suggest the following definition, which doesn't make much sense to me:

"x is a g-female/g-woman" =def "x wants to behave femininely or be treated in a feminine way"

What about a very feminine gay s-man who "wants to behave femininely or be treated in a feminine way", but doesn't regard himself as female/a woman at all, and doesn't want to be regarded as female/a woman at all?

Does anyone of the gender theorists use this sort of definition? Anyway, the basic problem with attempts at defining "g-female"/"g-woman" is that they always end up with vague stereotypes of femininity. How feminine does one have to be in order to be a g-woman? What degree of femininity is necessary and sufficient for being a g-woman? Can there be any non-arbitrary answers to these question?

There is an easy, non-arbitrary way to tell the difference between a "very feminine gay s-man" and a "g-woman" assigned male at birth: the very feminine man identifies himself as a "man" and uses he/his pronouns, while the g-woman assigned male at birth identifies herself as a woman and uses she/her pronouns. Even if their mannerisms are hypothetically the same, society will still treat a feminine s-man differently than they will a feminine g-woman. People signal this by using their pronouns and presenting (an effeminate gay man presents differently with different clothes and mannerisms than a trans woman wanting to present like a cis woman).

I'm sorry, but I still canot derive any plausibly adequate definition of "g-woman" from all that. As far as I can see, if g-womanhood is totally independent of s-womanhood, then it can only consist in some kind of mental state or in some kind of social role. If being a s-woman means having a female body, then being a g-woman might mean having a female mind (or soul). But what does having a female mind mean? I have no idea! – And if being a g-woman means having some social role such as being a housewife, then "g-woman" is a purely functional concept that can of course be applied to s-man as well, since a s-man can do the job of a housewife.

I don't know what a female mind is either, but again, we're talking about social expectations; not a whole cloth mind.

I beg to differ! Those transwomen who say so think they really & literally are women, because they think that having a female body is totally unnecessary for being a woman. Consequently, they have substituted the concept of a g-woman for the concept of a s-woman (= the common traditional concept of a woman). According to the extreme form of postmodern gender theory, biological sex is unreal, such that the only applicable concept of a woman left is the antibiological, purely psychological/sociological concept of a g-woman (nebulously defined either as a purely mental state or as a purely social role).

Where are you seeing this? I know plenty of trans people. I go to Pride. I hang out at gay bars sometimes. I don't know any trans people that think there's no such thing as phenotypical/biological sex (they may think it's complicated because of intersex people, because of chromosomal issues and SRY issues, etc., but not that it just doesn't exist). I don't know any trans people that don't acknowledge that their goal as a woman or as a man is the social construct of gender. I don't think whatever you're describing is common or defining for trans people.

[Astro Cat]

One more thing re: hanging at gay bars sometimes. I'm a lesbian, femme, and also happen to prefer femme partners (not really attracted to masc women). Trans women make passes at me like any other women would. I've considered accepting some of their date offers if they were attractive to me and we hit it off, but I suppose I never have (plus I've been in a monogamous relationship for almost 5 years now). But my point is that I've still talked to people even if I didn't feel like dating, and sometimes those conversations have turned towards trans issues and things like that.

A lot of trans women (and men) never end up getting surgery (which is fine!), and some don't do hormones for one reason or the other. That is their choice, and there are plenty of people that really could not care less about whether their partner has done that or not. I happen to care about my partner's body (not to be crude, but I'm just not interested in penises, on a man or a woman; and again, plenty of people don't care about this, in case any trans person is reading this, please don't feel discouraged). But every trans woman I've ever talked to doesn't just ignore these kinds of realities or have the delusion that by transitioning their phenotype has changed: they are just getting more comfortable in their own skin when they transition to appear more like their gender (which is, again, a social construct). Not once has a trans woman insisted to me she was... I don't know, a phenotypical, assigned-at-birth female. I think this conversation won't go anywhere if it keeps trying to assert "but they're not 'real' women." We should be past that by now.

[Consul]

There is an easy, non-arbitrary way to tell the difference between a "very feminine gay s-man" and a "g-woman" assigned male at birth: the very feminine man identifies himself as a "man" and uses he/his pronouns, while the g-woman assigned male at birth identifies herself as a woman and uses she/her pronouns. Even if their mannerisms are hypothetically the same, society will still treat a feminine s-man differently than they will a feminine g-woman. People signal this by using their pronouns and presenting (an effeminate gay man presents differently with different clothes and mannerisms than a trans woman wanting to present like a cis woman).

I hate the Wokespeak phrase "assigned fe/male at birth", because a baby's sex is observed and detected at birth (sometimes wrongly in highly rare cases of intersexuality). Babies aren't born as sexual neutrals! Sex is not a label "assigned at birth"!

"The very feminine man identifies himself as a "man" and uses he/his pronouns."

That is, he believes (and knows) that he is a s-man, albeit a very feminine or effeminate one. So far, so good.

"The g-woman assigned male at birth identifies herself as a woman and uses she/her pronouns."

What does "woman" mean here? "S-woman" or "g-woman"? Does "the g-woman assigned male at birth" believe to be a s-woman or a g-woman?

Oh boy, I already regret having accepted the confusing distinction between a wo/man qua sex (s-wo/man) and a wo/man qua gender (g-wo/man).

I don't know what a female mind is either, but again, we're talking about social expectations; not a whole cloth mind.

So g-wo/manhood is a set of stereotypical social expectations of certain kinds of appearance or performance; and if I meet those expectations, then I am a man or woman qua gender? That would make a feminine male transvestite a g-woman, wouldn't it?

Where are you seeing this? I know plenty of trans people. I go to Pride. I hang out at gay bars sometimes. I don't know any trans people that think there's no such thing as phenotypical/biological sex (they may think it's complicated because of intersex people, because of chromosomal issues and SRY issues, etc., but not that it just doesn't exist). I don't know any trans people that don't acknowledge that their goal as a woman or as a man is the social construct of gender. I don't think whatever you're describing is common or defining for trans people.

"Their goal as a woman or as a man is the social construct of gender."

This I do not understand. Isn't it the core of being a transsexual man that you want/wish/desire to be(come) a woman qua sex (and not qua mere gender) = person with the body of a biological woman?

[Astro Cat]

This I do not understand. Isn't it the core of being a transsexual man that you want/wish/desire to be(come) a woman qua sex (and not qua mere gender) = person with the body of a biological woman?

As everything boils down to this one thing, I've snipped everything else (I did read it! Please don't feel like I've ignored you).

No. The goal is not to do something magical and impossible, as several of us have tried to say in different ways a few times. Don't mean to say that snarkily.

Trans people know they can't change their phenotypic/biological sex.

They are changing their gender, a social construct.

When a trans person changes their body to match their gender, they aren't under the illusion that they've changed their phenotype.

But then I am getting too close to putting words into other peoples' mouths here. I may leave this one at that until a trans person is able to come along to speak for themselves.

[Astro Cat]

One other thing: “assigned at birth” is a reference to gender, not to sex. Gender is assigned, sex is just a fact.

[Consul]

One other thing: “assigned at birth” is a reference to gender, not to sex. Gender is assigned, sex is just a fact.

No, what is "assigned" at birth (on the basis of observation) is the baby's visible sex rather. I don't even know what it means to say that newborns get or have a gender that is different from their sex.

[Astro Cat]

One other thing: “assigned at birth” is a reference to gender, not to sex. Gender is assigned, sex is just a fact.

No, what is "assigned" at birth (on the basis of observation) is the baby's visible sex rather. I don't even know what it means to say that newborns get or have a gender that is different from their sex.

"Assigned at birth" means "gender assumed to match sex," basically. It's an assumption. Usually a reasonable one as most people are cis. But it's one way trans people can explain that they're changing something.

[Consul]

This I do not understand. Isn't it the core of being a transsexual man that you want/wish/desire to be(come) a woman qua sex (and not qua mere gender) = person with the body of a biological woman?

As everything boils down to this one thing, I've snipped everything else (I did read it! Please don't feel like I've ignored you).
No. The goal is not to do something magical and impossible, as several of us have tried to say in different ways a few times. Don't mean to say that snarkily.
Trans people know they can't change their phenotypic/biological sex.
They are changing their gender, a social construct.
When a trans person changes their body to match their gender, they aren't under the illusion that they've changed their phenotype.

What does it mean "to change one's gender"?

It is part of the definition of a transsexual person that s/he desires or wishes to be(come) a member of the opposite sex. Of course, desires or wishes may never come true; but that is what makes a person transsexual psychologically.

A transsexual man cannot become corporeally identical, i.e. perfectly similar, to a biological woman, but he can become imperfectly similar to one at least through hormone treatment and surgeries. A transsexual man can become a quasi-woman at least by having his body artificially feminized (as far as physically/physiologically possible). He can change his sex only incompletely, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done to feminize his body to a significant degree. Of course, no surgery can change a man's chromosomes and make his body produce ova (unless functional ovaries and other organs of the female reproductive system are transplantable into a male body, which is hardly possible).

[LuckyR]

It is easy for cis folks to casually blend together genetics, physioligy, behavior, personal identification and sexual preference, and use "male" and "female" or "man" and "woman" to refer to some or all of the above. It has only been acknowledged in the mainstream recently the fact that these different axes can be totally independent from one another.

[Astro Cat]

What does it mean "to change one's gender"?

It is part of the definition of a transsexual person that s/he desires or wishes to be(come) a member of the opposite sex. Of course, desires or wishes may never come true; but that is what makes a person transsexual psychologically.

A transsexual man cannot become corporeally identical, i.e. perfectly similar, to a biological woman, but he can become imperfectly similar to one at least through hormone treatment and surgeries. A transsexual man can become a quasi-woman at least by having his body artificially feminized (as far as physically/physiologically possible). He can change his sex only incompletely, but this doesn't mean that nothing can be done to feminize his body to a significant degree. Of course, no surgery can change a man's chromosomes and make his body produce ova (unless functional ovaries and other organs of the female reproductive system are transplantable into a male body, which is hardly possible).

I think in your case maybe it would be easiest to just consider "woman" in the gendered sense to mean "either a woman in the sex sense or a transwoman."

Calling someone with body dysmorphia a "quasi-woman" would probably feel hurtful. The word "trans woman" already exists. If you're comfortable accepting that this is just truncated to "woman" and that the gender (not sex!) of "woman" includes trans womanhood, then I think you're there maybe?