What is a Woman

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Nick_A
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What is a Woman

Post by Nick_A »

It seems like a simple question and politics is doing its level best to corrupt it, butit is far more complex then normally given credit for.

For example, the clownfish along with other sources of life can change its sex:

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticis ... ome%20male.
For clownfish like Nemo, it is particularly complicated. All clownfish are born males. A clownfish group consists of a dominant male and female and 0-4 juvenile males. So where did the female come from in the group? When the female dies, the dominant male changes sex to become the dominant female and one of the juveniles becomes the dominant male.

Do these ways of making males and females have anything in common? Yes. In all cases, whether you are male or female is determined by a certain set of genes being turned on.

In people, the presence of the Y chromosome determines this. The Y chromosome has a gene called SRY that signals the body to become male. In other words, the SRY gene must be on to make a male. In fact, if SRY is present in someone with two X chromosomes, they appear male and if someone is XY but has a mutated SRY gene, they look female.

The same is true for species without sex chromosomes. For example, in turtles it may be that high temperature shuts off the turtle SRY gene so you get females. In the case of clownfish, the absence of a female results in a male changing to a female. We don’t know exactly how this works, but it’s possible that the female clownfish produces some sort of chemical signal that keeps males from becoming female.

In terms of what’s going on biologically in the clownfish, apparently the dominant male has functioning testes and some latent cells that can become ovaries under the right conditions. Once the female dies, the testes in the dominant male degenerate and ovaries form from the latent ovarian cells.
What is this SRY gene?

https://medlineplus.gov/download/genetics/gene/sry.pdf
The SRY gene provides instructions for making a protein called the sex-determining
region Y protein. This protein is involved in male-typical sex development, which usually
follows a certain pattern based on an individual's chromosomes. People usually have 46
chromosomes in each cell. Two of the 46 chromosomes, known as X and Y, are called
sex chromosomes because they help determine whether a person will develop male or
female sex characteristics. Girls and women typically have two X chromosomes (46,XX
karyotype), while boys and men typically have one X chromosome and one Y
chromosome (46,XY karyotype).

The SRY gene is found on the Y chromosome. The sex-determining region Y protein
produced from this gene acts as a transcription factor, which means it attaches (binds)
to specific regions of DNA and helps control the activity of particular genes. This protein
starts processes that cause a fetus to develop male gonads (testes) and prevent the
development of female reproductive structures (uterus and fallopian tubes).


Surely this cannot happen with human beings some say. Human sexuality may be determined by forces science is yet to understand

From the Gospel of Thomas:

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html
(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
What is a woman? What is a female and how does it relate to males. Is it by chance or does mother nature determine genders which can change and are determined by her needs?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

Nick_A wrote: June 30th, 2022, 9:48 pm It seems like a simple question and politics is doing its level best to corrupt it, butit is far more complex then normally given credit for.
"woman" = "an adult female human being" (Oxford Dictionary of English)
Nick_A wrote: June 30th, 2022, 9:48 pmFor example, the clownfish along with other sources of life can change its sex:

Surely this cannot happen with human beings some say.
They are right, sequential hermaphroditism doesn't (and won't ever) occur in homo sapiens.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

There are three biological or bodily (* accounts of the human sexes:
(* = of or belonging to the body or physical nature of man)

1. The gamete account:

– A human body is male (a boy/man) if and only if, normally, it will produce, produces, or produced sperm cells.

– A human body is female (a girl/woman) if and only if, normally, it will produce, produces, or produced egg cells.

2. The chromosome account:

– A human body is male (a boy/man) if and only if it has Y chromosomes.

– A human body is female (a girl/woman) if and only if it doesn't have Y chromosomes.

3. The morphological cluster account:

– A human body is male (a boy/man) if and only if it has enough, i.e. a sufficient number, of those morphological (phenotypical) and endocrinological (hormonal) sexual characteristics which typically distinguish it from female bodies:

– A human body is female (a girl/woman) if and only if it has enough, i.e. a sufficient number, of those morphological (phenotypical) and endocrinological (hormonal) sexual characteristics which typically distinguish it from male bodies:

1. primary sexual characteristics: genitals

1.1 external
1.1.1 male: penis, scrotum
1.1.2 female: vulva, clitoris

1.2 internal
1.2.1 male internal genitals
1.2.1.1 gonad: testes
1.2.1.2. epididymis, ductus deferens, seminal vesicle, ejaculatory duct, bulbourethral gland, and prostate.
1.2.2. female internal genitals
1.2.2.1 gonad: ovaries
1.2.2.2 vagina, uterine cervix, uterus, Fallopian tubes

2. secondary sexual characteristics that aren’t connected with the reproductive system but distinguish the sexes, and usually appear at puberty: breasts, facial hair, size of larynx [voice], subcutaneous fat, etc.

3. hormones (men have higher relative levels of testosterone than women, while women have higher levels of estrogen)

———

As for 1+2, there are very rare cases of developmental disorders resulting in some form of intersexuality, such that there are borderline cases, where the body is neither definitely male nor definitely female.

As for 3, how much is "enough"? Here the problem is that it seems up to us to decide how many male-/female-typical morphological characteristics a body must have in order to be male/female.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by JackDaydream »

Nick_A wrote: June 30th, 2022, 9:48 pm It seems like a simple question and politics is doing its level best to corrupt it, butit is far more complex then normally given credit for.

For example, the clownfish along with other sources of life can change its sex:

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticis ... ome%20male.
For clownfish like Nemo, it is particularly complicated. All clownfish are born males. A clownfish group consists of a dominant male and female and 0-4 juvenile males. So where did the female come from in the group? When the female dies, the dominant male changes sex to become the dominant female and one of the juveniles becomes the dominant male.

Do these ways of making males and females have anything in common? Yes. In all cases, whether you are male or female is determined by a certain set of genes being turned on.

In people, the presence of the Y chromosome determines this. The Y chromosome has a gene called SRY that signals the body to become male. In other words, the SRY gene must be on to make a male. In fact, if SRY is present in someone with two X chromosomes, they appear male and if someone is XY but has a mutated SRY gene, they look female.

The same is true for species without sex chromosomes. For example, in turtles it may be that high temperature shuts off the turtle SRY gene so you get females. In the case of clownfish, the absence of a female results in a male changing to a female. We don’t know exactly how this works, but it’s possible that the female clownfish produces some sort of chemical signal that keeps males from becoming female.

In terms of what’s going on biologically in the clownfish, apparently the dominant male has functioning testes and some latent cells that can become ovaries under the right conditions. Once the female dies, the testes in the dominant male degenerate and ovaries form from the latent ovarian cells.
What is this SRY gene?

https://medlineplus.gov/download/genetics/gene/sry.pdf
The SRY gene provides instructions for making a protein called the sex-determining
region Y protein. This protein is involved in male-typical sex development, which usually
follows a certain pattern based on an individual's chromosomes. People usually have 46
chromosomes in each cell. Two of the 46 chromosomes, known as X and Y, are called
sex chromosomes because they help determine whether a person will develop male or
female sex characteristics. Girls and women typically have two X chromosomes (46,XX
karyotype), while boys and men typically have one X chromosome and one Y
chromosome (46,XY karyotype).

The SRY gene is found on the Y chromosome. The sex-determining region Y protein
produced from this gene acts as a transcription factor, which means it attaches (binds)
to specific regions of DNA and helps control the activity of particular genes. This protein
starts processes that cause a fetus to develop male gonads (testes) and prevent the
development of female reproductive structures (uterus and fallopian tubes).


Surely this cannot happen with human beings some say. Human sexuality may be determined by forces science is yet to understand

From the Gospel of Thomas:

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html
(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."
What is a woman? What is a female and how does it relate to males. Is it by chance or does mother nature determine genders which can change and are determined by her needs?
Human gender and sexuality is complex because it involves biology, psychology and social or cultural aspects of human identity. It became less mysterious with the knowledge of genetics and the endocrine system. The work of sexologists, including John Money, shed light upon the nature of gender and gender identity, especially focusing upon people with intersex disorders and those with issues around gender identity, especially transsexuals. One critical issue following on from John Money was one of his case studies. It focused upon one of two twin boys who unfortunately lost his penis in an accident of circumcision. A decision was made to correct the boy to become a girl. For more any years, this decision was understood to mean that it was possible for one to become a gender based on socialisation. That was until it came to light that the 'girl' was struggling desperately and, despite hormones to make her become female, she was masculine looking, experienced bullying and chose to transition to become male. Unfortunately, this person 'John', who actually published a book on his story, committed suicide, although it is understood that there were various factors in his life which may have contributed to this. What is critical though is that the idea that gender was a mere aspect of nurture was challenged by this case-study because what really happened was that it showed how complex is.

The whole area of gender is extremely complex and, sometimes, it becomes so muddled. The understanding of intersex disorders is complicated because there are so many different forms, including chromosomes disorders and hormonal disorders, such as adrenogenital syndrome, which is a genetic disorder which leads to masculination and genital masculinisation at birth in some cases. Many intersex people who were reared as one sex and given surgical treatment have spoken out about this and there is a growing belief that children should be given time and space to be involved in the decisions as opposed to having decisions made for them.

The issue of gender dysphoria is more complex. In some cases there can be an overlap between gender dysphoria in intersex disorders and people who have been raised as one sex and wish to transition to the other gender. However, in many ways the exact causes of transsexuaism is not known, as to how much is physical and how much is psychological although there is ongoing research. There is so much discussion in the media about gender and trans issues. It is a great area of controversy which has possibly taken over from discussion about gay issues. However, there is still homophobia.

This is a big topic but it could go in many ways, especially around the area of trans and LGBTQI issues because, unfortunately, on forum discussions, it can generate into open hostility and my own fear about this thread is that it may degenerate into a thread which is about transwomen are not real women, or of why trans people should not expect to be referred to by their chosen pronouns. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own views but there is so much transphobia anon the internet, as well as bullying of LGBTIQ people in society. It would be good if this discussion becomes one of open discussion and of deeper understanding. Also, as your question is what is a woman, hopefully, the nature of female identity, sexism and gender identity will be explored, and that this will involve women speaking about what it means to them to be a woman.

Also, the concept of androgyny, as the integration of the psychological aspects of gender, as the anima and animus, spoken of by Jung may be relevant, especially in relation to the reference you make about the Gospel of Thomas. The idea of androgyny, especially as explored in June Singer in her book 'Androgyny' has been in existence from ancient times, especially in mythology. Sometimes, especially in media discussions of trans terminology and controversial discussions, the archetypal aspects of androgyny get missed out as a philosophical aspect of the nature of sexuality and gender.
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: July 1st, 2022, 12:56 am
As for 1+2 [= the gamete+chromosome account], there are very rare cases of developmental disorders resulting in some form of intersexuality, such that there are borderline cases, where the body is neither definitely male nor definitely female.

As for 3 [the morphological cluster account], how much is "enough"? Here the problem is that it seems up to us to decide how many male-/female-typical morphological characteristics a body must have in order to be male/female.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: July 1st, 2022, 12:59 am As for 1+2 [= the gamete+chromosome account], there are very rare cases of developmental disorders resulting in some form of intersexuality, such that there are borderline cases, where the body is neither definitely male nor definitely female.
Intersexuality doesn't constitute a "third sex"; nor does it turn sex into a nonbinary "spectrum".
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: July 1st, 2022, 1:03 amIntersexuality doesn't constitute a "third sex"; nor does it turn sex into a nonbinary "spectrum".
Moreover, intersexuality is essentially different from transsexuality, because transsexuals are either definitely male or definitely female according to the gamete+chromosome account. And according to the morphological cluster account, pre-transition/pre-operative transsexuals are unambiguously male or female too.
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

JackDaydream wrote: July 1st, 2022, 12:59 am Human gender and sexuality is complex because it involves biology, psychology and social or cultural aspects of human identity.
If "gender" means "sex", then it involves only biology (physiology/morphology), because it is an objective state of the body rather than a subjective state of the mind (or a social role).
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by JackDaydream »

Consul wrote: July 1st, 2022, 1:19 am
JackDaydream wrote: July 1st, 2022, 12:59 am Human gender and sexuality is complex because it involves biology, psychology and social or cultural aspects of human identity.
If "gender" means "sex", then it involves only biology (physiology/morphology), because it is an objective state of the body rather than a subjective state of the mind (or a social role).
Your claim that "gender" means sex seems to lead you into a form of biological essentialism. There is a clear relationship between biology and gender, and I certainly don't think that my own post, if you read it fully was glossing over that. However, whilst gender is based on biological aspects the cultural aspects are extremely important. This has been explored in the sociology of gender, including Ann Oakley's argument that 'one is not born, but becomes a woman.'

Also, as human beings there is the whole construction of human identity, which is where the social sciences, including psychology, sociology and anthropology come into the picture. I would have thought that was all relevant to the idea of what gender means. Feminist theory is also relevant, as well as gender theory, rather than the question being reduced to mere biological definitions of how a person is defined objectively on the basis of their physical attributes.
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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JackDaydream wrote: July 1st, 2022, 1:46 amYour claim that "gender" means sex seems to lead you into a form of biological essentialism. There is a clear relationship between biology and gender, and I certainly don't think that my own post, if you read it fully was glossing over that. However, whilst gender is based on biological aspects the cultural aspects are extremely important. This has been explored in the sociology of gender, including Ann Oakley's argument that 'one is not born, but becomes a woman.'
One meaning of "gender" is "sex". For the (non-grammatical) meanings of "gender", see: viewtopic.php?p=414713#p414713
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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Consul wrote: July 1st, 2022, 2:17 am For the (non-grammatical) meanings of "gender", see: viewtopic.php?p=414713#p414713
"GENDER2: A word for social stereotypes, expectations and norms of ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’, originally directed towards biological males and females respectively. These can and do differ from culture to culture, though there are many overlaps too." – Kathleen Stock

This corresponds to Oakley's concept of gender:

"Gender is a term that has psychological and cultural rather than biological connotations. If the proper terms for sex are 'male' and 'female', the corresponding terms for gender are 'masculine' and 'feminine'; these latter may be quite independent of (biological) sex. Gender is the amount of masculinity or femininity found in a person, and, obviously, while there are mixtures of both in many humans, the normal male has a preponderance of masculinity and the normal female a preponderance of femininity."

(Oakley, Ann. Sex, Gender and Society. 1972. Reissue, Abingdon: Routledge, 2016. p. 116)

Gender thus defined goes beyond biology. The phrases "feminine man" and "masculine woman" aren't contradictions in terms.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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JackDaydream wrote: July 1st, 2022, 12:59 amThis is a big topic but it could go in many ways, especially around the area of trans and LGBTQI issues because, unfortunately, on forum discussions, it can generate into open hostility and my own fear about this thread is that it may degenerate into a thread which is about transwomen are not real women…
Why would that mean a "degeneration" of the discussion, given that the word "woman" is part of the word "transwoman"? I am not "transphobic" at all, but I don't think transwomen are (real) women. (Of course, according to the postmodern gender ideologues, not to think so is transphobic by definition.) There are even transwomen who don't think they are (real) women—such as Debbie Hayton, who likes to wear a T-shirt with the following definition printed on it: "transwoman: adult transsexual male"

Don't worry, we can now continue to talk about what a woman is!
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: June 30th, 2022, 11:25 pm "woman" = "an adult female human being" (Oxford Dictionary of English)
Who disagrees with this definition? If women aren't adult human females but something else, what are they?
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Astro Cat
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Astro Cat »

As JackDaydream pointed out (and Consul has consequently touched on), this is going to depend on whether you're asking about sex or gender.

I think Consul's second post in this thread does great at defining woman the sex. Jackdaydream's first post helps raise some of the nuances about gender.

I think gender is more about how we want to present and be treated by society, in short. Some people don't want any kind of gendered treatment (nonbinary people for instance).
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
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Astro Cat
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Astro Cat »

Consul wrote: July 1st, 2022, 2:48 am
Consul wrote: June 30th, 2022, 11:25 pm "woman" = "an adult female human being" (Oxford Dictionary of English)
Who disagrees with this definition? If women aren't adult human females but something else, what are they?
I think this is a definition, which is fine. I also think that some people wish to behave in ways we associate with femininity and to be treated as such: they want to behave womanly, and to be treated womanly. Someone that feels this way would be a woman (as with cis women and trans women). I don't think trans women are under the illusion that the biological side mentioned in your post is untrue. I think they're more concerned with being womanly and being treated womanly. ("Being womanly" is probably pretty loosey goosey, as I'm not even sure how I'd exhaustively define this as a cis woman, but I don't think this is an unnavigable conundrum or anything).
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
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