What is a Woman

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value
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by value »

value wrote: July 12th, 2022, 11:27 am
gad-fly wrote: July 5th, 2022, 5:20 pmGenesis 3.22: The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
How about the following ideas:

- Mother 🌍 Earth
- Mother Nature

The Maya's considered the black hole at the centre of the 🌃 Milky Way to be the Mother of the Universe
One might add Gaia Philosophy, a female name for a spirit that supposedly encompasses nature on Earth.
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Sculptor1
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Sculptor1 »

GE Morton wrote: July 12th, 2022, 11:54 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 12th, 2022, 5:49 am Who controls the media?
It doesn't matter who controls the media, as long as it operates in a free market.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

An article: What is a Woman, Anyway? by Michael Shermer
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is a Woman

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To any transpeople who may read this thread, I apologise on behalf of the forum.

Sadly, philosophers and philosophy buffs are notoriously misogynist and queerphobic, so this unfortunately is the predictable result. The thread is a plethora of logical and ethical errors, ignoring the last half a century's research and treating the issue as new, as does the mainstream media. Once again, failed treatments and "theories" are touted that have proved as ineffective and harmful as gay conversion therapy.

Note that many here who are slamming transsexuals would also support gay conversion therapy, despite it being thoroughly discredited.
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Astro Cat
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Re: What is a Woman

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Sy Borg wrote: July 12th, 2022, 8:36 pm To any transpeople who may read this thread, I apologise on behalf of the forum.

Sadly, philosophers and philosophy buffs are notoriously misogynist and queerphobic, so this unfortunately is the predictable result. The thread is a plethora of logical and ethical errors, ignoring the last half a century's research and treating the issue as new, as does the mainstream media. Once again, failed treatments and "theories" are touted that have proved as ineffective and harmful as gay conversion therapy.

Note that many here who are slamming transsexuals would also support gay conversion therapy, despite it being thoroughly discredited.
Also to any trans people that may read this thread, there are plenty of people that just roll their eyes at this Matt Walsh "What is a Woman" crap that has stirred a lot of this up. I support you, you are valid.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is a Woman

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If this thread was just limited to sport, I would support transpeople not competing in elite sport. After all, transition means that any female-to-male trans athlete will lose their sporting career because they are as disadvantaged by their skeleton and puberty as male-to-female trans athletes are advantaged.

However, this thread has turned into an attempt to delegitimise and pathologise transpeople altogether, as if zero attempts had been made to "cure" transpeople since Christine Jorgenson made headlines in the 50s. I suppose this is what gay people endured, and often still do endure to some extent.

Yes, transpeople are as valid as any other human or living being. It's a terrible thing for them to have complete strangers thinking they have the right - even the duty - to undermine or sabotage their lives.

They are dealt a very tough hand in life. If reincarnation is true, they must have been utter, utter turds in their previous lives ;)
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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Sy Borg wrote: July 12th, 2022, 8:36 pm To any transpeople who may read this thread, I apologise on behalf of the forum.

Sadly, philosophers and philosophy buffs are notoriously misogynist and queerphobic, so this unfortunately is the predictable result. The thread is a plethora of logical and ethical errors, ignoring the last half a century's research and treating the issue as new, as does the mainstream media. Once again, failed treatments and "theories" are touted that have proved as ineffective and harmful as gay conversion therapy.

Note that many here who are slamming transsexuals would also support gay conversion therapy, despite it being thoroughly discredited.
I'm speaking for myself: You don't mention me explicitly here, but I take what you write as a personal attack. It's one load of lies and slander!
What makes your disparaging statements about me and other participants in this discussion especially blameworthy is that they are coming from one of the Site Admins of this forum, who ought to act more objectively and more fairly!

* I needn't and don't apologize for anything I wrote, because the target of my critique haven't been transpeople as such but postmodern (trans)gender theory (which has influenced the thoughts and beliefs of transpeople)! Criticizing and Rejecting this ideology has nothing to do with "slamming transsexuals"!

* "The thread is a plethora of logical and ethical errors." Is it really? Where are those alleged errors? Please show them to me!

* By the way, I don't and won't ever "support gay conversion therapy"!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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Sy Borg wrote: July 12th, 2022, 9:31 pmHowever, this thread has turned into an attempt to delegitimise and pathologise transpeople altogether…
No, it hasn't! That's a blatant lie!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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Astro Cat wrote: July 12th, 2022, 8:58 pmAlso to any trans people that may read this thread, there are plenty of people that just roll their eyes at this Matt Walsh "What is a Woman" crap…
I've seen only short excerpts from it, but why do you think it is crap? He describes his documentary as an "assault on gender ideology". Do you subscribe to this ideology (philosophy)? Well, those who do surely won't like Walsh's film.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

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Debbie Hayton: Why does Penny Mordaunt think ‘trans men are men’?

"…As a trans person, let me be clear: it is not kind to trans people to let us build our lives on a fallacy. Nobody can change sex, not even trans people.
While Penny Mordaunt may be willing to perpetuate this idea, increasing numbers of people – men and women, including trans people of both sexes – see the dangers. We are not bigots, or transphobes, or TERFs. We are reasonable people who think critically and understand reality when it stares us in the face."


You may disagree with Hayton, but she and those agreeing with her do have the right to speak out on (trans)gender issues!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by JackDaydream »

Consul wrote: July 13th, 2022, 5:10 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 12th, 2022, 8:36 pm To any transpeople who may read this thread, I apologise on behalf of the forum.

Sadly, philosophers and philosophy buffs are notoriously misogynist and queerphobic, so this unfortunately is the predictable result. The thread is a plethora of logical and ethical errors, ignoring the last half a century's research and treating the issue as new, as does the mainstream media. Once again, failed treatments and "theories" are touted that have proved as ineffective and harmful as gay conversion therapy.

Note that many here who are slamming transsexuals would also support gay conversion therapy, despite it being thoroughly discredited.
I'm speaking for myself: You don't mention me explicitly here, but I take what you write as a personal attack. It's one load of lies and slander!
What makes your disparaging statements about me and other participants in this discussion especially blameworthy is that they are coming from one of the Site Admins of this forum, who ought to act more objectively and more fairly!

* I needn't and don't apologize for anything I wrote, because the target of my critique haven't been transpeople as such but postmodern (trans)gender theory (which has influenced the thoughts and beliefs of transpeople)! Criticizing and Rejecting this ideology has nothing to do with "slamming transsexuals"!

* "The thread is a plethora of logical and ethical errors." Is it really? Where are those alleged errors? Please show them to me!

* By the way, I don't and won't ever "support gay conversion therapy"!
Obviously, you will have to wait for Sy Borg's response. You are taking her post as an attack on you. Have you not thought that trans people may take a thread which is mostly aimed at saying that they are not 'real' in their chosen gender as being an attack on them. Of course, you have the right to express your ideas but you just keep adding more and more. It seem unfair when endless posts are written arguing about one specific group of people, trying to dismiss their feelings about who they are.
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

According to Ibram Kendi, a prominent champion of critical race theory, you are a racist unless you accept critical race theory (as the only true social analysis of the causes of racism and racial inequalities) and become a political activist striving for its institutional and legal implementation. Resistance to or the rejection of CRT is in principle regarded by people like Kendi as a morally reprehensible expression of racism.

Analoguously, according to critical gender/queer theory, you are a homo- or transphobe unless you accept critical gender/queer theory (as the only true theory of the nature of gender/sex) and become a political activist striving for its institutional and legal implementation. Resistance to or the rejection of G/QT is in principle regarded by its adherents as a morally reprehensible expression of homo-/transphobia.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Astro Cat »

Consul wrote: July 13th, 2022, 6:30 am According to Ibram Kendi, a prominent champion of critical race theory, you are a racist unless you accept critical race theory (as the only true social analysis of the causes of racism and racial inequalities) and become a political activist striving for its institutional and legal implementation. Resistance to or the rejection of CRT is in principle regarded by people like Kendi as a morally reprehensible expression of racism.

Analoguously, according to critical gender/queer theory, you are a homo- or transphobe unless you accept critical gender/queer theory (as the only true theory of the nature of gender/sex) and become a political activist striving for its institutional and legal implementation. Resistance to or the rejection of G/QT is in principle regarded by its adherents as a morally reprehensible expression of homo-/transphobia.
I'm not sure whether anyone has called you a transphobe. People are just questioning the ethics of having trans people encounter this thread and feel genuine pain over it.

What might be an entertaining intellectual conundrum for you on a public forum might be grievously injurious to someone that struggles with gender dysmorphia everyday. Or it could at least be exhausting to them. I know I get exhausted when people debate my life for fun (do I have bodily autonomy? Can I marry my girlfriend? In another thread on the Philosophy Now forum, am I as competent as a man in STEM/are there cognitive differences in the sexes?) Questions can be valid and maybe even worth discussing, but at a certain point -- especially if views have been given and no minds have been changed -- continuing and continuing may just be more and more exhausting and/or harmful.

I don't really know, I'm not trans. As I said I only empathize analogously to similar things people debate for fun about me. But I wanted to make sure that any trans people reading this know they are valid, supported, and that not everyone feels the need to hyper-analyze them; that the notion of gender is sensible and accepted by many. That's all.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
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Astro Cat
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Astro Cat »

Since I can't edit: "gender dysmorphia" --> "gender dysphoria"
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
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Consul
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Re: What is a Woman

Post by Consul »

JackDaydream wrote: July 13th, 2022, 6:21 amObviously, you will have to wait for Sy Borg's response. You are taking her post as an attack on you. Have you not thought that trans people may take a thread which is mostly aimed at saying that they are not 'real' in their chosen gender as being an attack on them.
Well, those transpeople who believe in postmodern gender/queer theory will not be happy about reading or hearing that they their "chosen gender" doesn't correspond to reality, but it's not my duty to make them happy, feel "comfortable" & "safe" by uncritically and devoutly affirming the postmodern ideas about gender/sex that G/QT has implanted in their minds, which I think are false and socially pernicious (especially to women).

Don't take me wrong: I have no evil intention whatsoever to make transsexuals unhappy, feel bad or miserable. On the contrary! I fully accept and respect them as what they are—transsexual people! I fully accept and respect transwomen as transsexual men/transmen as transsexual women; but what I don't accept and respect are the ideological doctrines that transwomen are (really/literally) women/transmen are (really/literally) men, and that subjective gender identity/identification is all the matters with regard to the state of womanhood/manhood (girlhood/boyhood).

QUOTE>
"This is a book about an idea, one that seems simple but has far-reaching consequences. The idea is that people should count as men or women according to how they feel and what they declare, instead of their biology. It’s called gender self-identification, and it is the central tenet of a fast-developing belief system which sees everyone as possessing a gender identity that may or may not match the body in which it is housed. When there is a mismatch, the person is ‘transgender’ – trans for short – and it is the identity, not the body, that should determine how everyone else sees and treats them."

"This is not a book about trans people. I will present the scientific research into what causes gender dysphoria and cross-sex identification. But I will not seek to balance stories of those for whom transition has been a success, and those for whom it has been a failure. Whether or not transition makes people happier is an important question for individuals and clinicians, especially when it involves irreversible hormonal or surgical interventions. But it is irrelevant to evaluating the truth of gender-identity ideology, and to whether self-declared gender should replace sex across society. To draw another analogy, whether a religion makes its believers happy is irrelevant to the question of whether its god exists, or whether everyone else should be compelled to pay it lip service."

(Joyce, Helen. Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality. London: Oneworld, 2021.)
<QUOTE
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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