What is a Woman

[Consul]

Your claim that "gender" means sex seems to lead you into a form of biological essentialism. There is a clear relationship between biology and gender, and I certainly don't think that my own post, if you read it fully was glossing over that. However, whilst gender is based on biological aspects the cultural aspects are extremely important. This has been explored in the sociology of gender, including Ann Oakley's argument that 'one is not born, but becomes a woman.'

Wasn't it Simone de Beauvoir who said that?
Anyway, in my view, the mental, social, or cultural aspects or dimensions of wo/manhood are totally irrelevant to the definition of "wo/man", because wo/manhood qua fe/maleness is a purely natural state of the body, which is anything but a "social construction".

[Consul]

Anyway, in my view, the mental, social, or cultural aspects or dimensions of wo/manhood are totally irrelevant to the definition of "wo/man", because wo/manhood qua fe/maleness is a purely natural state of the body, which is anything but a "social construction".

That is, you are a girl/woman iff you are/have a female body (not necessarily a feminine one); and you are a boy/man iff you are/have a male body (not necessarily a masculine one). This sounds like an obvious truism to me, but I know that the postmodern, antibiological gender theorists regard it as an utter falsity.

[Astro Cat]

Your claim that "gender" means sex seems to lead you into a form of biological essentialism. There is a clear relationship between biology and gender, and I certainly don't think that my own post, if you read it fully was glossing over that. However, whilst gender is based on biological aspects the cultural aspects are extremely important. This has been explored in the sociology of gender, including Ann Oakley's argument that 'one is not born, but becomes a woman.'

Wasn't it Simone de Beauvoir who said that?
Anyway, in my view, the mental, social, or cultural aspects or dimensions of wo/manhood are totally irrelevant to the definition of "wo/man", because wo/manhood qua fe/maleness is a purely natural state of the body, which is anything but a "social construction".

But this isn't what a lot of people mean when they use the term. That's like insisting that you will only accept one definition of a term that's concerned with one arena of being (e.g., "I will only accept 'woman' as a term if it's relating to phenotype, biological sex, etc.")

If someone is talking about their gender, not their sex, and you know what they mean, would you insist that they use the term that you want to use instead? Or would you accept that they've communicated something to you? Do you not know what a woman that was assigned male at birth means when they say "I am a woman?" Do you think they mistakenly believe to have a female phenotype?

[JackDaydream]

Your claim that "gender" means sex seems to lead you into a form of biological essentialism. There is a clear relationship between biology and gender, and I certainly don't think that my own post, if you read it fully was glossing over that. However, whilst gender is based on biological aspects the cultural aspects are extremely important. This has been explored in the sociology of gender, including Ann Oakley's argument that 'one is not born, but becomes a woman.'

Wasn't it Simone de Beauvoir who said that?
Anyway, in my view, the mental, social, or cultural aspects or dimensions of wo/manhood are totally irrelevant to the definition of "wo/man", because wo/manhood qua fe/maleness is a purely natural state of the body, which is anything but a "social construction".

I am afraid it's a while since I studied sociology to know which feminist writer said the statement and I don't have those books any longer.

However, it does seem that you see gender as just about physiology. Of course, you are entitled to see it that way but there are some limitations. The way people insist on people being categorised entirely on the basis of physiology does make life harder for people who have gender dysphoria. I actually thought that you had some underlying sympathy with the philosophy of idealism whereas seeing gender simply as being biological is a form of biological determinism.

[Consul]

Anyway, in my view, the mental, social, or cultural aspects or dimensions of wo/manhood are totally irrelevant to the definition of "wo/man", because wo/manhood qua fe/maleness is a purely natural state of the body, which is anything but a "social construction".

But this isn't what a lot of people mean when they use the term. That's like insisting that you will only accept one definition of a term that's concerned with one arena of being (e.g., "I will only accept 'woman' as a term if it's relating to phenotype, biological sex, etc.")

The common traditional meaning of "wo/man" as "adult human fe/male"—as we find it or synonymous phrases such as "the female of the human race, grown to adult years" (Webster's Dictionary from 1828) in all dictionaries published before the postmodern gender theorists started their war against natural, objective reality—can't and mustn't simply be "humptydumptied" away!

Of course, you could create another word "woman" with the same pronunciation&spelling, but with a different meaning; but then you would have to distinguish clearly between "woman_1" (the traditional word meaning "adult human female") and "woman_2" (the new word meaning whatever). Since that would be very confusing, it would be better not to redefine the good old word "woman", but to create an entirely different word for whatever you mean (instead of "adult human female").

If someone is talking about their gender, not their sex, and you know what they mean, would you insist that they use the term that you want to use instead? Or would you accept that they've communicated something to you? Do you not know what a woman that was assigned male at birth means when they say "I am a woman?" Do you think they mistakenly believe to have a female phenotype?

My problem is that I don't know what someone is talking about when they're talking about their "gender" unless they give me an explicit definition of it.
No, I do "not know what a [trans]woman that was assigned male at birth means when they say "I am a woman"?" unless they tell me what they mean by "woman". I know what I mean by "woman", which is what "woman" means; but this cannot be what the transwoman means by it, since she would then have to concede that she is not a woman.

[Consul]

However, it does seem that you see gender as just about physiology. Of course, you are entitled to see it that way but there are some limitations. The way people insist on people being categorised entirely on the basis of physiology does make life harder for people who have gender dysphoria. I actually thought that you had some underlying sympathy with the philosophy of idealism whereas seeing gender simply as being biological is a form of biological determinism.

No, I "see gender as just about physiology" only if "gender" means "sex"—which is not to say that "gender" only means "sex". I said that "one meaning of "gender" is "sex"," and there are other meanings pertaining to the transbiological aspects of sex.

Whether trans/wo/men, who aren't really wo/men, ought to be legally categorized as wo/men (as a kind of legal fiction) or linguistically referred to as woman/lady/Mrs/she/her (as a kind of linguistic fiction) is another question.

[Astro Cat]

The common traditional meaning of "wo/man" as "adult human fe/male"—as we find it or synonymous phrases such as "the female of the human race, grown to adult years" (Webster's Dictionary from 1828) in all dictionaries published before the postmodern gender theorists started their war against natural, objective reality—can't and mustn't simply be "humptydumptied" away!

Of course, you could create another word "woman" with the same pronunciation&spelling, but with a different meaning; but then you would have to distinguish clearly between "woman_1" (the traditional word meaning "adult human female") and "woman_2" (the new word meaning whatever). Since that would be very confusing, it would be better not to redefine the good old word "woman", but to create an entirely different word for whatever you mean (instead of "adult human female").

My problem is that I don't know what someone is talking about when they're talking about their "gender" unless they give me an explicit definition of it.
No, I do "not know what a [trans]woman that was assigned male at birth means when they say "I am a woman"?" unless they tell me what they mean by "woman". I know what I mean by "woman", which is what "woman" means; but this cannot be what the transwoman means by it, since she would then have to concede that she is not a woman.

Consul, you strike me as far too intelligent to be seriously proposing that you've never seen an English word with more than one context before. I trust that you've seen dictionaries that list multiple contexts by number? (I know I sound really snarky here, I'm not trying to come off mean, just playful).

Besides, most trans people will happily use the terminology "I am a transwoman" or "I am a transman" (thus giving you the demarcation you seem to desire).

Trans people aren't under the illusion that their phenotypical sex is other than it is. When they talk about their gender, they're talking about their social identity and desire to behave like and be behaved towards as one of the genders. I do not think this is difficult or unnavigable. It feels like the only way to be confused by this is by being deliberately uncharitable.

[Consul]

No, I do "not know what a [trans]woman that was assigned male at birth means when they say "I am a woman"?" unless they tell me what they mean by "woman". I know what I mean by "woman", which is what "woman" means; but this cannot be what the transwoman means by it, since she would then have to concede that she is not a woman.

There is a transsexual male politician in Germany who firmly believes to be a woman, but is unable to define "woman". The obvious logical problem is that if you don't know what a woman is, you can't know that or whether you are a woman. The following statement is blatantly self-contradictory: "I don't know what a woman is, but I know I am a woman."

[Astro Cat]

No, I do "not know what a [trans]woman that was assigned male at birth means when they say "I am a woman"?" unless they tell me what they mean by "woman". I know what I mean by "woman", which is what "woman" means; but this cannot be what the transwoman means by it, since she would then have to concede that she is not a woman.

There is a transsexual male politician in Germany who firmly believes to be a woman, but is unable to define "woman". The obvious logical problem is that if you don't know what a woman is, you can't know that or whether you are a woman. The following statement is blatantly self-contradictory: "I don't know what a woman is, but I know I am a woman."

Well, all that this shows is that there are trans people that aren’t good philosophers: what a shocker (as there are people that aren’t good philosophers in any group).

[Astro Cat]

My womanhood isn't threatened by transwomen. I know what a transwoman means when they say they want to be referred to with she/her pronouns. I know what they mean when they say they're a woman. I don't think it means that they're delusional and believe they have an XX phenotype or any of the biological sex definitions for a female Consul gave near the beginning of this thread. I think they know their phenotypical reality.

Now maybe we need a trans person to join the chat, I certainly don't speak for trans people though I know many of them (being a lesbian myself, LGBTQ+ people tend to meet and get to know one another). But I am a feminine woman, and what that means is that when I get up and look in my closet, I have some idea of how I'm going to present to the world on a given day with clothes, makeup, mannerisms. If I want to turn heads, I know how to present. If I want to accentuate my femininity, I know how to present. If I want to be looked at less as a woman and more just as a person, I'll wear less feminine clothes, something more neutral, nondescript, like a loose sweater. I know what I'm doing when I prepare myself to be seen by society and interact with it.

As a cis woman, I'm a "woman" when I want to behave generally in a feminine way and want the world to treat me in a feminine way. And perhaps this is what that German transwoman was saying, Consul, that what constitutes "behaving feminine" and "being treated feminine" is difficult to define, but most of us know it when we see it. It's also a duplicitous edge: even at my most feminine, I don't want to be treated like a helpless, delicate flower. Even at my most neutral, I don't want to be treated in a masculine way. I think most of us form ideas of what's meant when I say these things.

[Consul]

Consul, you strike me as far too intelligent to be seriously proposing that you've never seen an English word with more than one context before. I trust that you've seen dictionaries that list multiple contexts by number? (I know I sound really snarky here, I'm not trying to come off mean, just playful).

Yes, I'm familiar with the semantic structure of dictionaries.

Besides, most trans people will happily use the terminology "I am a transwoman" or "I am a transman" (thus giving you the demarcation you seem to desire).

Well, I'm not so happy about their terminology. I first thought "naively" that "trans/wo/man" is an abbreviation of "transsexual wo/man" = "adult transsexual fe/male", but then I learned that this is definitely not what transgender theorists mean by these terms. Well, what do they mean by them?
This for example: "A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth. Trans women have a female gender identity." ("trans woman" in Wikipedia)

I don't understand how one can "have a female gender identity" without being female; and the above definition is meaningless unless the word "woman" is defined too. The definition of "x is a woman" as "x self-identifies as a woman" is circular and hence inadequate and inacceptable. Have the postmodern gender theorists presented any intelligible non-circular definition of "woman" or "man"?

Trans people aren't under the illusion that their phenotypical sex is other than it is. When they talk about their gender, they're talking about their social identity and desire to behave like and be behaved towards as one of the genders. I do not think this is difficult or unnavigable. It feels like the only way to be confused by this is by being deliberately uncharitable.

I see "gender" defined differently from "sex", and then "gender" defined as "gender identity"; and then "gender identity" defined as "gender identification". Again, these are circular definitions, since they don't tell us what "gender" alone means in the first place.

[Consul]

I know what a transwoman means when they say they want to be referred to with she/her pronouns.

I know that too, since their meaning is obvious here.

I know what they mean when they say they're a woman.

And what do they mean when they say so? Please don't mind my being so insistent, but this is a crucial question!

I don't think it means that they're delusional and believe they have an XX phenotype or any of the biological sex definitions for a female Consul gave near the beginning of this thread. I think they know their phenotypical reality.

But then they should know that they are not (really/literally) women!

[Consul]

I don't think it means that they're delusional and believe they have an XX phenotype or any of the biological sex definitions for a female Consul gave near the beginning of this thread. I think they know their phenotypical reality.

But then they should know that they are not (really/literally) women!

Please tell me: When a person with a completely male body seriously believes to be a woman, and stubbornly refuses to accept the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, why isn't this belief properly called a delusion?

[Consul]

As a cis woman, I'm a "woman" when I want to behave generally in a feminine way and want the world to treat me in a feminine way. And perhaps this is what that German transwoman was saying, @Consul, that what constitutes "behaving feminine" and "being treated feminine" is difficult to define, but most of us know it when we see it.

There's a relevant difference between saying "I am a woman" and "I want/desire to be a woman" or "I want to be regarded as/treated like a woman".

There's also a relevant difference between being female (being a girl/woman) and being feminine (with regard to one's appearance or behavior).

[stevie]

What is a woman? What is a female and how does it relate to males. Is it by chance or does mother nature determine genders which can change and are determined by her needs?

For me "woman" and "man" stand for outer appearances of organisms, their contextual behaviours (physical and verbal) and all the gender relevant concepts I've been "fed with" during my life (upbringing, education, movies, novels) and all the gender relevant concepts I've conditioned myself with during my life.