Is World Peace Possible?

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Sy Borg
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

Post by Sy Borg »

Good_Egg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 5:08 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 12:35 am ...killing non-human organisms is necessary to live but it is in no way peaceful. As biological beings, peace is impossible.
Meat-eating isn't the problem.

The invention of agriculture - the transition from a hunter society to a farmer society - was perhaps the first revolution in human affairs. People who raise chickens for meat in their back yard are not a threat to world peace. Whatever violence is involved in converting a living bird to fresh meat, it is balanced - made sustainable - by the activity of breeding the chickens in the first place. It stays in the back yard. It doesn't require hunting someone else's territory.
If I am the chicken - or whatever animal - being killed for food, then I see it as violence, even if the hunters think it's all just fine. Violence extrapolates from there with competition between people for access to those animals, and subsequently access to other resources.

While humans have significant physical needs, there can be no world peace, as such.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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By "world peace" I of course mean peace between humans. Rather than peace between humans and chickens. So what the chickens feel about it doesn't matter.

Does one necessarily extrapolate to the other ? No. It's entirely possible to conceive of a peaceful society where nobody has any interest in the chickens that other people raise in their backyard. Where there's no competition for those animals, because everybody knows they have no legitimate interest in other people's property.

Of course, if you're saying that an ideology which denies property rights is a threat to peace, that we can never achieve world peace whilst such an ideology holds sway, then I have to agree with you.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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Good_Egg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 3:26 am By "world peace" I of course mean peace between humans. Rather than peace between humans and chickens. So what the chickens feel about it doesn't matter.
The suffering of chickens does not matter to you because they are powerless. Likewise, the suffering of WWII POWs in concentration camps didn't matter to their captors for exactly the same reason.

Good_Egg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 3:26 amDoes one necessarily extrapolate to the other ? No. It's entirely possible to conceive of a peaceful society where nobody has any interest in the chickens that other people raise in their backyard. Where there's no competition for those animals, because everybody knows they have no legitimate interest in other people's property.
Your peaceful society would last as long as it took for someone to break the law.

If no one ever breaks the law, then the chances are that any potential troublemakers have already been tortured and executed, and the threat remains for current citizens. Shang-ri-la is necessarily a totalitarian regime.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

Post by LuckyR »

Using the word violence to describe eating a chicken sandwich may be appropriate, but also dilutes the meaning of the word when used in, say a domestic violence situation.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2022, 3:09 am Using the word violence to describe eating a chicken sandwich may be appropriate, but also dilutes the meaning of the word when used in, say a domestic violence situation.
In a functional and political sense, yes.

However, the chicken being killed would interpret being killed as violence. What are your thoughts on someone in a harsh future eating a human meat sandwich? They wouldn't be doing anything nasty themselves - just having lunch, as as needed.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

Post by LuckyR »

Sy Borg wrote: July 25th, 2022, 3:15 am
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2022, 3:09 am Using the word violence to describe eating a chicken sandwich may be appropriate, but also dilutes the meaning of the word when used in, say a domestic violence situation.
In a functional and political sense, yes.

However, the chicken being killed would interpret being killed as violence. What are your thoughts on someone in a harsh future eating a human meat sandwich? They wouldn't be doing anything nasty themselves - just having lunch, as as needed.
No need to invent a future, strept bacteria and coronaviruses feast on humans right now. Personally, I don't harbor them any ill will. Others may.

Death is an end if life is viewed as linear (which is accurate for the individual). When viewed globally, life is circular and death is not the end.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2022, 1:11 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 25th, 2022, 3:15 am
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2022, 3:09 am Using the word violence to describe eating a chicken sandwich may be appropriate, but also dilutes the meaning of the word when used in, say a domestic violence situation.
In a functional and political sense, yes.

However, the chicken being killed would interpret being killed as violence. What are your thoughts on someone in a harsh future eating a human meat sandwich? They wouldn't be doing anything nasty themselves - just having lunch, as as needed.
No need to invent a future, strept bacteria and coronaviruses feast on humans right now. Personally, I don't harbor them any ill will. Others may.

Death is an end if life is viewed as linear (which is accurate for the individual). When viewed globally, life is circular and death is not the end.
Ten out of ten for inclusiveness but, when I said "someone", I was thinking anthropocentrically. You strung me up on my own petard :lol:

Taking that global perspective, the biosphere develops by eating itself. An ouroboros. So the only way there can be ultimate peace is for the biosphere to die (or to send parts of itself to other worlds to lead an autotrophic existence). That's why I say that digitisation of humanity is the only way world peace can potentially be achieved. Biological beings must kill and exploit.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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No. The animal kingdom is survival of the fittest. We fall under that umbrella I think.
Say we could all "get along." We still need to eat. If we eat plants, we "kill" them. So I am sure someone somewhere would call that, "violence."
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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JDBowden wrote: July 25th, 2022, 6:04 pmNo. The animal kingdom is survival of the fittest. We fall under that umbrella I think.
Say we could all "get along." We still need to eat. If we eat plants, we "kill" them. So I am sure someone somewhere would call that, "violence."
Even if every human becomes vegan, the "nine meals from anarchy" situation will remain should there be food shortages.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

Post by LuckyR »

I guess I don't equate consumption and death with violence. True there can be violent deaths (and violent food making and consuming), but there is also non-violent death.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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Sy Borg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 4:28 pm The suffering of chickens does not matter to you because they are powerless. Likewise, the suffering of WWII POWs in concentration camps didn't matter to their captors for exactly the same reason.
You've seen Chicken Run then ?

Death without any suffering at all may be impossible. But dying is a necessary part of living.

Let's be clear - the alternative you're proposing is non-existence. In a vegan world, the vast majority of the chickens would just never be born in the first place. Is it better to live and be eaten than to never live at all ?

Your peaceful society would last as long as it took for someone to break the law.

If no one ever breaks the law, then the chances are that any potential troublemakers have already been tortured and executed, and the threat remains for current citizens. Shang-ri-la is necessarily a totalitarian regime.
I interpret your argument to be that:
- there is no peace if there is crime
- the only way to eliminate crime is a police state
- a police state is not peaceful to live in
- therefore peace is impossible.

That seems a much better argument than one based on chicken sandwiches.

It's true that there can be no international peace unless nation-on-nation crime (like Russia's attack on Ukraine) is somehow prevented by a supra-national order that polices the world.

But is such an order necessarily so oppressive as to be itself unpeaceful ?

Seems to me that there are in many countries villages which are peaceful. Places with minimal crime and non-oppressive policing. So if it can be done at that level, why can't it scale up ?
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

Post by Nick_A »

Sy
Taking that global perspective, the biosphere develops by eating itself. An ouroboros. So the only way there can be ultimate peace is for the biosphere to die (or to send parts of itself to other worlds to lead an autotrophic existence). That's why I say that digitisation of humanity is the only way world peace can potentially be achieved. Biological beings must kill and exploit.
The animal kingdom does not kill for convenience but rather for necessity. The continued transformation of energies as the purpose of living is a necessity. Only Man can have the quality of motives that change a necessity into a violent action.

Man, being subject to a great many negative emotions becomes capable of great violence so becomes unable to serve the purposes of our earth. However A1 or artificial intelligence can perform a role but doesn't transform any substances so does not serve an objective purpose but just serves the purpose of its creator: The Great Beast or society itself. So if the dominance of A1 serves no objective purpose, the earth is compelled to influence more deaths to compensate by supplying the necessary energies through deaths. This seems absurd until a person remembers that the Great Beast is a creature of reaction so has no choice in serving nature's needs.

Can A! replace the need for conscious evolution Simone wrote of in the OP and the necessity for Man to develop conscious attention so as to receive awakening help from our Source? Now that is a real philosophical question.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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Good_Egg wrote: July 26th, 2022, 3:53 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 4:28 pm The suffering of chickens does not matter to you because they are powerless. Likewise, the suffering of WWII POWs in concentration camps didn't matter to their captors for exactly the same reason.
You've seen Chicken Run then ?

Death without any suffering at all may be impossible. But dying is a necessary part of living.

Let's be clear - the alternative you're proposing is non-existence. In a vegan world, the vast majority of the chickens would just never be born in the first place. Is it better to live and be eaten than to never live at all ?

Your peaceful society would last as long as it took for someone to break the law.

If no one ever breaks the law, then the chances are that any potential troublemakers have already been tortured and executed, and the threat remains for current citizens. Shang-ri-la is necessarily a totalitarian regime.
I interpret your argument to be that:
- there is no peace if there is crime
- the only way to eliminate crime is a police state
- a police state is not peaceful to live in
- therefore peace is impossible.

That seems a much better argument than one based on chicken sandwiches.

It's true that there can be no international peace unless nation-on-nation crime (like Russia's attack on Ukraine) is somehow prevented by a supra-national order that polices the world.

But is such an order necessarily so oppressive as to be itself unpeaceful ?

Seems to me that there are in many countries villages which are peaceful. Places with minimal crime and non-oppressive policing. So if it can be done at that level, why can't it scale up ?
The question is, "Is World Peace possible?" and the answer is no for all the reasons I provided, and more.

The "argument based on chicken sandwiches" is decisive. The implication that a chicken's life and suffering don't matter is invalid, simple anthropocentrism. If it was one chicken that suffered, perhaps your dismissal would be at least somewhat grounded. However, when discussing death being required to sustain life, the level of strife and suffering inflicted on being on a daily basis - human and otherwise - is enormous, beyond comprehension.

Did I "propose" "non-existence". I pointed out what would be needed for world peace to be possible, that is, transcending biology. Observation is not promotion, and I am not sure why you conflate the two. Whether humans can actually transcend biology, no one knows, but post-humans would still clearly be leading an existence. Humans are not all that is sentient, nor all that matters, and that goes for post-humans too.

BTW occasional peaceful villages do not constitute "world peace". Again, they are not so peaceful to the animals they kill to survive. There is no world peace, just transient pockets of relative peace.
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

Post by Good_Egg »

Sy Borg wrote: July 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm However, when discussing death being required to sustain life, the level of strife and suffering inflicted on being on a daily basis - human and otherwise - is enormous, beyond comprehension.
Against what baseline are you judging the strife and suffering experienced by chickens to be enormous ?

Does being eaten by humans necessarily cause more strife and suffering to the average chicken than being eaten by foxes ? Or dying of disease or hunger and being eaten by worms ?

Or is it just that the number of chickens being bred to feed the humans is enormous ?

What's your comparator here ?

Or are you just bewailing that life involves pain and not suggesting that anything could ever be any different ?
There is no world peace, just transient pockets of relative peace.
Spreading that level of transient relative peace throughout all times and places in the world is what most of us mean by "world peace". You know, absence of war ?

Seems to me a valid question - what prevents us humans from scaling up and universalizing the most peaceful examples of human existence ?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is World Peace Possible?

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Good_Egg wrote: July 27th, 2022, 9:08 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 26th, 2022, 8:39 pm However, when discussing death being required to sustain life, the level of strife and suffering inflicted on being on a daily basis - human and otherwise - is enormous, beyond comprehension.
Against what baseline are you judging the strife and suffering experienced by chickens to be enormous ?

Does being eaten by humans necessarily cause more strife and suffering to the average chicken than being eaten by foxes ? Or dying of disease or hunger and being eaten by worms ?

Or is it just that the number of chickens being bred to feed the humans is enormous ?

What's your comparator here ?

Or are you just bewailing that life involves pain and not suggesting that anything could ever be any different ?
There is no world peace, just transient pockets of relative peace.
Spreading that level of transient relative peace throughout all times and places in the world is what most of us mean by "world peace". You know, absence of war ?

Seems to me a valid question - what prevents us humans from scaling up and universalizing the most peaceful examples of human existence ?
It seems you are leaning towards a Descartes angle, that other animals don't really suffer, nut us humans. That view lead to outrageous cruelties.

I have said multiple times that life involves suffering and death and, yes, nothing will be any different.

There is very obviously no possibility whatsoever of world peace and the notion is clearly an unreachable ideal, like The Perfect Man or Perfect Woman, or the Garden of Eden. While competition exists, there can be no peace, and that's inevitable.

Let's say we create a Shangri-La world, where some peaceful indigenous tribe has influenced and inspired all societies with their fabulous philosophies. It's already impossible at the start (I expect that in such a situation the racists and theists rebelling instantly and people would be accused of being "woke").

Gandhi's Non Violence movement was the closest example I can think of, yet his influence has already largely disappeared from Indian society. Even the caste system has persisted, despite his efforts.

In game theory, a single bad actor in Prisoner's Dilemma can bring disequilibrium to a perfectly peaceful society, just as viral disease can spread through a population from a single viroid. When everyone is cooperating, a single person prospering by exploiting others' good nature can start a chain of "I'd like some of those benefits".

Why? Because preservation is unstable because breakdown (via entropy) is intrinsic to physical reality. Any perfectly peaceful society will inevitably start breaking down - unless the "perfectly peaceful" society coerces potential recalcitrants into being peaceful.
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