What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: July 10th, 2022, 2:23 pm I wonder about your idea of anger a failure and probably have a mixed view. It may be more about the extent of the anger, its reason and how it is expressed. It is possible to feel anger which appears disproportionate to an event. For example, if someone loses a game or doesn't get a job which they apply for. Of course, it may depend how important it was. One idea which someone suggested to me, which I find useful, is thinking whether or not something which has happened in 10 years time.

I agree that anger is a way of holding on to dignity and self respect. For example, suppose one fails an exam and they may develop anger for the examiners' biases or for the unfairness of the questions. A sacked worker may say that his employer had a 'problem' with him. In developing such an attitude it enables warding off the sense of personal failure.

In connection with this, there is also anger towards oneself and I definitely have that as often as towards others. I get angry with myself if I don't think that I have behaved badly, overspent, drunk too much alcohol or make a mess of things which I try to do. Forgiving oneself can be harder than forgiving others, although the two are interrelated, in the spirit of compassion.
I don't think that "anger is a way of holding on to dignity and self respect" (in the face of disappointment). To express it this way makes it sound desirable, even admirable. But is it not an attempt to deny our apparent failure, so that we don't need to experience the disappointment that goes with it? Do we not simply assign blame to someone/something external to ourselves, using anger to fuel and disguise this avoidance tactic?

Failure, or apparent failure, can result in many responses; anger is only one of them. We can consider determination (to do better next time) or regret, for example. Some of these other responses echo certain aspects of anger, but perhaps in a more constructive way?

And why do we think as we do about 'crimes of passion'? We treat a crime committed out of anger as being less blameworthy than the 'cold-blooded' commission of that same crime. Why is that, I wonder? It seems to me that we could look at it the other way around. The angry criminal committed their crime whilst being out of control. They could not change or moderate their own actions, even if they wanted to, because they were in the thrall of anger. In terms of the non-criminal public, are we not in greater (future) danger from someone who might lose control of themselves again, and maybe do the same thing again, or worse? At least someone who acted 'in cold blood' can be treated as a rational being, and maybe persuaded to follow a different path?

If we use anger as an excuse, say in a court of law — "it was a 'crime of passion', yer honour" — are we not seeking to deny responsibility — and maybe shift the blame too — for our own actions? "It wasn't me, it was the anger wot done it". I don't accept that this is a valid defence.

There are all kinds of reasons why a decent person might commit a crime, and these reasons may be central to deciding what punishment might be appropriate, but if I did it, I am guilty (and responsible), even if I had 'good' reasons to do what I did. Except in the most extreme circumstances, we are all responsible for our actions. I think this is a basic foundation for the way we dispense justice, via our laws. Anger cannot and does not over-ride this fundamental principle, IMO.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: July 10th, 2022, 10:03 am
LuckyR wrote: July 10th, 2022, 1:47 am Each of the various individual emotions has an appropriate place in the complexity of what constitutes normal human life. Including anger, hatred etc. When any emotion is out of balance, it can be a negative thing.

Or put another way, when exposed to an anger inducing event, what's wrong with responding with anger? What else would a normal person respond with?
I can't agree with this. What's wrong with responding with anger? You will damage yourself every time, and sometimes others as well. There is only cost to anger, never gain. With what else should we respond? With kindness, understanding, perhaps pity. I can stop a crime or prevent someone from hurting another without hating the criminal or the one doing the harm. I don't have to add in the additional harm of anger and thus damage myself or them. Stoic philosophy and various forms of cognitive therapy remind and teach us this important truth:
Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things. Epictetus, "The Enchiridion"
“When I started to get disillusioned with psychoanalysis I reread philosophy and was reminded of the constructivist notion that Epictetus had proposed 2,000 years ago: "People are disturbed not by events that happen to them, but by their view of them." I could see how that applied to many of my clients.” Albert Ellis, founder of rational emotive behavior therapy
As someone who suffered with an anger problem (and no longer does), these are not quaint little sayings or nice ideas to me, but building blocks for living a better life. Anger does not result directly from events but from opinions built upon a foundation of conceit. I used to believe, as many, many people do, that I knew right from wrong. If someone did something I did not think was right, then I assumed that they "should have known" right from wrong, meaning that they should have agreed with my opinions (which is actually rather ridiculous when you break it down that way). Yet, if someone thinks this way, anger is a logical result in response to this perceived injustice. In reality, though, the idea of injustice is only a logical extension of your unfounded opinion.

Socrates said that nobody acts immorally on purpose, that nobody willingly chooses evil. That is a quick way to sum up the path out of anger. If you sense injustice, set aside your unfounded opinion about the intentions of the other person (the fundamental attribution error). Don't assume their motives, and there is no longer a foundation for anger. Reexamine your assessment of the situation. If they still seem wrong, then you can inwardly pity them. Surely you suffered the affliction they seem to display in the past, and you will suffer it again in the future. They didn't choose to hurt you intentionally, but rather they thought they were doing the right thing. Their ground level opinions about the world were, perhaps, off the mark.

So, to answer the question posed by the thread, anger is a mistake. The thing that "makes" you angry may be a mistake, or you may be angry because you are mistaken about the nature of that thing, or it could be a little of both. However that breaks down, though, the response of anger is a separate and more serious mistake. That pattern of thought will diminish the quality of your own life and make you something of a toxic presence in the lives of those around you. There is no payoff for the cost imposed.
As it happens, the personal experience you describe is consistent with my post.

In respect to your description of a prior anger management problem, I noted that any emotion (especially anger) that is out of balance is negative.

It is understandable that you may be unfamiliar with the concept of anger being manifested by a slight adrenaline release and some annoyance. I have personally used induced anger to get over sadness, since anger and sadness are opposites.

Sports coaches use their opponent's trash talk in the media to anger their team to focus them towards victory.

Just as sadness is the appropriate response to tragedy, someone suffering from clinical depression may not be in a position to appreciate that nuance.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by coolwhip27 »

If one experiences anger, hatred or blame then they are experiencing what the majority of mankind does. So it is apart of the same disorder. What man doesn’t understand is that by isolating these feelings to look like their own, their ego blinds them. People seem to have accepted this condition like it is nature. We look away from change, because of the miserable state we have long accepted
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by JackDaydream »

coolwhip27 wrote: July 11th, 2022, 7:31 pm If one experiences anger, hatred or blame then they are experiencing what the majority of mankind does. So it is apart of the same disorder. What man doesn’t understand is that by isolating these feelings to look like their own, their ego blinds them. People seem to have accepted this condition like it is nature. We look away from change, because of the miserable state we have long accepted
I think that you are new to the forum, so thank you for contributing to my thread. Anger is definitely an emotion which is common to human beings, so it is best not to beat oneself up over it. I have probably been angry with myself for being angry at times. Often anger is seen as negative by some people and people who come across as angry can be viewed in a judgemental light. I don't express my anger that much but just get a little irritable. I have known people who have done things like smash their phones when angry. They must regret it afterwards, but it is probably worse to have attacked another person, although I try not to be judgmental, as after all, we are all human beings with emotions which can be strong.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: July 11th, 2022, 2:01 pm It is understandable that you may be unfamiliar with the concept of anger being manifested by a slight adrenaline release and some annoyance. I have personally used induced anger to get over sadness, since anger and sadness are opposites.
Well, I am familiar with that experience now. It is the experience of victory over the cognitive distortions that caused me to allow the anger to overwhelm me in the past. I am happy to be able to move on quickly from a little flash of anger when something happens that might upset me. I am able to see the situation more rationally and allow for the possibility that I am mistaken or to forgive the person almost immediately. If nothing else, I can (usually) withhold judgement indefinitely, such that I don't have a foundation for anger. Of course, after you are able to allow some time to pass, most issues fade from view and their perceived importance diminishes rapidly. So, delay is often all you need.

However, I am not sure I can view that milder experience as healthy or productive, and I would not want to produce it in myself or others to try to achieve some end. We might say that being frightened when you are surprised is a mild form of anxiety. There is a biological need for this and it serves a purpose. We can say that it is healthy, in contrast to a clinical type of anxiety where we are worried about things beyond our control that may not ever happen, such that our quality of life is diminished. I'm not convinced there are similar healthy and unhealthy types of anger. Anger requires cognition; you need someone to be angry AT and a reason for the anger, meaning that you have an opinion about the way others "should" behave. If a bolt of lightning struck near me, I might be frightened, but I would not be angry. I have a reason to be frightened, but no reason to be angry, as I can't blame someone for the lightning, and I have no expectation that lightning should never occur as a matter of justice. So, even that milder form of anger is a result of my conceited opinions about what others "should" do, rather than a necessary and sometimes productive biological response.

I can only say for sure that anger is not appealing to me as a tool. As an recovering alcoholic would probably never drink red wine to promote heart health, I doubt I will ever try to use anger in the way you describe. I can't speak for others, but looking around my society, I see a lot of trouble caused by anger and little if any positive aspect to it. Look at the anger present in American politics. It blinds people from seeing a middle path of compromise where real progress could be made, such that we are locked it eternal, unproductive battle. The puppet masters are using fear and anger to motivate people to act as they wish them to act, but look at the costs. Do you think it is worth any possible gain to live in such a toxic environment?
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by EricPH »

JackDaydream wrote: July 10th, 2022, 2:23 pm A sacked worker may say that his employer had a 'problem' with him.
I have had the pleasure of being unfairly sacked at the tender age of 62, I could not afford to give up work and still needed an income.
I had worked with challenging behaviour for a care company for about ten years, and without a day off sick. I brought some troubling issues to the attention of the directors. Shortly after, I believe I was unfairly sacked.

I asked if I could come back as a volunteer, they said No. Since being sacked, I have done about two thousand hours of voluntary work; for the company that sacked me. I wanted to keep in touch with the people I had been supporting. I took them to a club every week and twice a year I voluntarily took them on holiday.

I can truthfully say, it is easier to do two thousand hours of voluntary work, than to carry resentment and anger for ten years. Accepting the things you cannot change, gives you the power and motivation to do the things that are in your power to do. I have felt totally at peace going back and seeing the people I hold responsible for my sacking.

Being sacked has taught me profound lessons in life. In the voluntary work I do with Street Pastors and a mental health group I attend, anger is a massive issue. What is the point of blame or hatred it will only eat away at my peace, what's done is done, it can't be undone.
In developing such an attitude it enables warding off the sense of personal failure.
What's wrong with failure, we all fail; probably many times in our lives. Failure is only failure when you give up. Failure gives us the opportunity to learn from life and try again.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by coolwhip27 »

JackDaydream wrote: July 12th, 2022, 2:38 am
coolwhip27 wrote: July 11th, 2022, 7:31 pm If one experiences anger, hatred or blame then they are experiencing what the majority of mankind does. So it is apart of the same disorder. What man doesn’t understand is that by isolating these feelings to look like their own, their ego blinds them. People seem to have accepted this condition like it is nature. We look away from change, because of the miserable state we have long accepted
I think that you are new to the forum, so thank you for contributing to my thread. Anger is definitely an emotion which is common to human beings, so it is best not to beat oneself up over it. I have probably been angry with myself for being angry at times. Often anger is seen as negative by some people and people who come across as angry can be viewed in a judgemental light. I don't express my anger that much but just get a little irritable. I have known people who have done things like smash their phones when angry. They must regret it afterwards, but it is probably worse to have attacked another person, although I try not to be judgmental, as after all, we are all human beings with emotions which can be strong.
I wouldn’t say that because one experiences anger they should beat themselves up over it. However, if to yourself it is possible to rise above it then it is. If you don’t think it’s possible to rise above it then you will experience it. I’m not saying all anger is unhealthy but for the most of part we don’t need it. What would be the need for any 3 of these feelings if mankind didn’t experience conflict? And if conflict is not possible to avoid then we are accepting the same misery mankind has gone through in all it’s history. We look away from solving the conflict within ourselves because our egos provide a sense of security. A sense of individuality.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Blame

Blame is an excuse, a false 'justification', for harming someone. It is a precursor to punishment. It says, "you are to blame; you have done wrong," in my opinion, "so I am going to hurt you. That will teach you not to do it again!" This is aversion therapy; coercion. In extreme circumstances, we might reasonably describe it as torture.

There is a very big difference between blame and responsibility. The former is as I have described; the latter is about 'taking ownership' of our own voluntary actions.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

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Hatred

Hatred seems self-evidently wrong and destructive to me. I find it hard to form an argument against it because it seems so obvious to me. So I will offer this quote, taken from here.
Hate involves an appraisal that a person or group is evil. While hate relates to other negative emotions, it also has some unique features, such as the motivation to eliminate the object of your hate. Revenge is often a part of hate, because the idea behind revenge is to want to hurt the person/group as much as you have been hurt by them. In daily life, the word hate is used very casually (e.g., I hate my teacher because she gave me a bad grade). People don’t usually mean that. When we ask participants to recall an experience when they felt hate, they do not usually recall these types of casual events. In fact, one of the challenges of studying hate is that most people can’t think of a time when they experienced true hate.

One finding from our research is that hate spreads and increases quicker if it’s directed at a group, rather than an individual. When you hate a group, the intensity of your hate can grow without you being confronted with specific persons or contrasting information from the group—you are basing your hate on stereotypes and prejudices.
It is difficult to identify any positive aspects of hatred, as far as I can see. It achieves nothing except harm. Oh, and it promotes harm too.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Anger

Again, a quote, this time from a post that seems to defend anger (with my own comments added, in red 😉). The quote is taken from here.
What are the benefits of expressing anger?

As is the case with all emotions, anger also has responsibilities, purposes and reasons to exist. It can be used for good intentions. Don’t believe it? Now you’ll understand why we’re saying this:

First of all, being angry is a force that motivates you. How many times has it occurred that after getting so angry about something you changed or worked to improve it?

Never. The anger sweeps all positive thoughts away. If I wasn't angry, I might think of trying to make things better. But angry, all I want to do is find someone (else) to blame, and then hurt them until my anger is gone.

Anger is a way to open or break down the mental and emotional barriers that keeps us from doing different things. If something causes us anger, it is likely that we’ll try to fix it.

As above.

Secondly, it has been found that angry people are more optimistic. Yes, you read correctly, though it may sound strange. People who are angry about something specific, as mentioned before, are taking more action to solve the matter. That’s why they know when something might work in the future and become less pessimistic.

Again, as above. Where do we get these ideas from? Just as 'tough love' is anything but love, so anger is not positive in any way that I can see.

The third benefit of anger is that this feeling can help us relate to others. Since anger is a way to communicate what we feel, especially when it relates to what we consider unfair, it is excellent for explaining to others what we think or feel.

We’re often taught since childhood that anger is bad, dangerous and should therefore be hidden. However, if we were given the opportunity to express anger, we would have fewer problems. Hiding when we do not agree with something or someone hurts any relationship.

Expressing our feelings is surely beneficial, but doing so via anger is not, that I can see. That's why we have things like courtesy, a practice that seeks to allow forthright communication without it degenerating into violence. So yes, hiding or suppressing our feelings and emotions is not good, but anger is not the solution. Courteous honesty will do the trick, and your message is far more likely to be heard.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: July 12th, 2022, 6:58 am
LuckyR wrote: July 11th, 2022, 2:01 pm It is understandable that you may be unfamiliar with the concept of anger being manifested by a slight adrenaline release and some annoyance. I have personally used induced anger to get over sadness, since anger and sadness are opposites.
Well, I am familiar with that experience now. It is the experience of victory over the cognitive distortions that caused me to allow the anger to overwhelm me in the past. I am happy to be able to move on quickly from a little flash of anger when something happens that might upset me. I am able to see the situation more rationally and allow for the possibility that I am mistaken or to forgive the person almost immediately. If nothing else, I can (usually) withhold judgement indefinitely, such that I don't have a foundation for anger. Of course, after you are able to allow some time to pass, most issues fade from view and their perceived importance diminishes rapidly. So, delay is often all you need.

However, I am not sure I can view that milder experience as healthy or productive, and I would not want to produce it in myself or others to try to achieve some end. We might say that being frightened when you are surprised is a mild form of anxiety. There is a biological need for this and it serves a purpose. We can say that it is healthy, in contrast to a clinical type of anxiety where we are worried about things beyond our control that may not ever happen, such that our quality of life is diminished. I'm not convinced there are similar healthy and unhealthy types of anger. Anger requires cognition; you need someone to be angry AT and a reason for the anger, meaning that you have an opinion about the way others "should" behave. If a bolt of lightning struck near me, I might be frightened, but I would not be angry. I have a reason to be frightened, but no reason to be angry, as I can't blame someone for the lightning, and I have no expectation that lightning should never occur as a matter of justice. So, even that milder form of anger is a result of my conceited opinions about what others "should" do, rather than a necessary and sometimes productive biological response.

I can only say for sure that anger is not appealing to me as a tool. As an recovering alcoholic would probably never drink red wine to promote heart health, I doubt I will ever try to use anger in the way you describe. I can't speak for others, but looking around my society, I see a lot of trouble caused by anger and little if any positive aspect to it. Look at the anger present in American politics. It blinds people from seeing a middle path of compromise where real progress could be made, such that we are locked it eternal, unproductive battle. The puppet masters are using fear and anger to motivate people to act as they wish them to act, but look at the costs. Do you think it is worth any possible gain to live in such a toxic environment?
I think what you're saying is completely logical... for you, given your experience. And just as an alcoholic wouldn't and shouldn't use red wine to help with heart health, red wine could be a completely reasonable thing to use for the majority of folks who aren't alcoholics.

Similarly, my view of the current political climate includes way, way, way too much apathy. IMO some righteous anger is the perfect motivator to get the majority of non voters off of their collective a$$es. As someone once said, if you're not angry, you're not paying attention.
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Is anger an emotion, or is it a description of being so overloaded with emotions that all other influences on our behaviour are suppressed and suspended?
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Re: What are anger, hatred and blame? What is the impact of these on people's lives?

Post by JackDaydream »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 13th, 2022, 10:22 am Is anger an emotion, or is it a description of being so overloaded with emotions that all other influences on our behaviour are suppressed and suspended?
That is an extremely good question. Of course, it may apply to other emotions. For example, if a person is in an extreme sense of sadness that may completely colour all others. Anger is an aspect of emotional being which may suspend rational judgement and it may be one from which may wish to flee if encountering it. If someone is shouting and swearing at me, I will probably wish to end the conversation. That is if it has not made me angry whereby I get drawn into shouting back. In that sense, anger can be contagious.

Also, the naming and separation of emotions is an issue because there may be blurred lines. That is, for example, in a bereavement a person may feel sad and angry at the same time. I don't mean that they are necessarily angry with the person who died but more angry with the situation. In that respect, anger may incorporate free floating anxiety. Also, sometimes there may be aspects of ambivalent emotions, or an interplay. It can be asked is it possible for anger and love to coexist, or for there to be an interplay of these emotions.

With anger, like most emotions, there is a mixture of physical aspects involved, such as rising blood pressure and adrenaline. However, it is also about the ideas and beliefs. People have different ways of understanding these processes, with some just being able to say I am angry whereas others are able to articulate the sources within one's beliefs and personal subjectivity which is being affected more clearly.
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