The Platonism of scientism

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
User avatar
thrasymachus
Posts: 520
Joined: March 7th, 2020, 11:21 am

The Platonism of scientism

Post by thrasymachus »

Scientism is the attempt to make science into a philosophy, that is, make the scientist's vocabulary into one that also speaks to foundational issues regarding the nature of material substance, objects in the world and the cognitive relations we have with them, conceptual frameworks into which foundational talk fits, and so on. The trouble with this kind of thinking, very popular among posters and those who like the both puzzles and the clarity of scientific thinking, is that it is reducible to Platonism, which says the objects which we stand among in the world are, in their apprehension, absolutely "there" as objects to the extent that their apprehension acknowledges in them some "share" of the original and eternal idea of what they are. So when you observe a tree, the tree taken as a tree, in all of the conceptual apparatus science confers upon it-- the gravity that resists the upward flow of fluids, the chlorophyllous description of internal chemical processes, etc. as somehow being "there" in a solid objective way that continues to be "there" even when no one is looking, that is, even when no perceptual, cognitive apparatus is brought to bear upon "it". So when observers remove themselves from the geological dig or the laboratory's microscopes, all they witnessed when actually "there," continues to hold, as if the, say, genetic material in the petri dish still remained genetic material when the lights went out and the doors were closed to an empty room.

This "faith" in the scientist's world carrying over into absolute independent conditions (though not complete, of course; no scientist thinks true foundational accounts have been realized. But what HAS been realized, is a part, an approximation of what is truly there) is nothing short of the old Platonic position that things witnessed in the world actually have, in some measure, the properties "given" to them in the observational act.

So when there is talk about the validity of science in discussions about the nature of the real and our relation to real things, what is presumed is Platonistic beliefs about the what is really there: the assumption that a witnessed object is a partial and qualified representation of what is being witnessed, and when we think about it, our thinking, in this limited way. grasps actuality as it really is, independent of the perceptual faculties in play.

No avoiding it: the subsuming of philosophical issues under science and its paradigms is simply a modern form of Platonism.
Sunday66
Posts: 137
Joined: April 10th, 2022, 4:44 pm

Re: The Platonism of scientism

Post by Sunday66 »

thrasymachus wrote: July 20th, 2022, 11:44 am Scientism is the attempt to make science into a philosophy, that is, make the scientist's vocabulary into one that also speaks to foundational issues regarding the nature of material substance, objects in the world and the cognitive relations we have with them, conceptual frameworks into which foundational talk fits, and so on. The trouble with this kind of thinking, very popular among posters and those who like the both puzzles and the clarity of scientific thinking, is that it is reducible to Platonism, which says the objects which we stand among in the world are, in their apprehension, absolutely "there" as objects to the extent that their apprehension acknowledges in them some "share" of the original and eternal idea of what they are. So when you observe a tree, the tree taken as a tree, in all of the conceptual apparatus science confers upon it-- the gravity that resists the upward flow of fluids, the chlorophyllous description of internal chemical processes, etc. as somehow being "there" in a solid objective way that continues to be "there" even when no one is looking, that is, even when no perceptual, cognitive apparatus is brought to bear upon "it". So when observers remove themselves from the geological dig or the laboratory's microscopes, all they witnessed when actually "there," continues to hold, as if the, say, genetic material in the petri dish still remained genetic material when the lights went out and the doors were closed to an empty room.

This "faith" in the scientist's world carrying over into absolute independent conditions (though not complete, of course; no scientist thinks true foundational accounts have been realized. But what HAS been realized, is a part, an approximation of what is truly there) is nothing short of the old Platonic position that things witnessed in the world actually have, in some measure, the properties "given" to them in the observational act.

So when there is talk about the validity of science in discussions about the nature of the real and our relation to real things, what is presumed is Platonistic beliefs about the what is really there: the assumption that a witnessed object is a partial and qualified representation of what is being witnessed, and when we think about it, our thinking, in this limited way. grasps actuality as it really is, independent of the perceptual faculties in play.

No avoiding it: the subsuming of philosophical issues under science and its paradigms is simply a modern form of Platonism.

Agree. This used to be called metaphysical realism. Some philosophers don't like the term but it seems to be true for those claiming the world exists as it is without needing to be perceived or described.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: The Platonism of scientism

Post by Pattern-chaser »

thrasymachus wrote: July 20th, 2022, 11:44 am Scientism is the attempt to make science into a philosophy, that is, make the scientist's vocabulary into one that also speaks to foundational issues regarding the nature of material substance, objects in the world and the cognitive relations we have with them, conceptual frameworks into which foundational talk fits, and so on.
I have always thought that sciencism — I call it that because someone who practises 'scientism' is surely a 'scientist', and that term already has a widely-known use! ;) — is the misapplication of science. I.e. applying science outside the area in which it is relevant, correct and 'competent'.

One example of such a misapplication is asking science to rule on the existence of God. [There are many other examples too; this one is not special or specifically relevant here.] Science cannot deal with questions for which there is no evidence. That isn't a shortcoming of science, but only a characteristic of science. Nevertheless, for questions like these, we turn to philosophy and metaphysics, not to science, which is not equipped to deal with such matters.

As for Platonism, I wouldn't know. ;)
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: The Platonism of scientism

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 21st, 2022, 12:21 pm I.e. applying science outside the area in which it is relevant, correct and 'competent'.
I.e. applying science outside the area in which it is relevant, capable and 'competent'.

There, that's a better choice of word, I think. :)
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: The Platonism of scientism

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scientism has been a serious problem in dietetics.
Speculations about the value of cholesterol, and fat in the diet has been generated by pretty poor meta-analyses of epidemiological data collated with some very dubious means to formulate dietary guidelines which have, through the recommendation of a low fat high carb diet, emphasising vegetable oils over animal fat led to a serious epidemic of obesity, type2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome and heart disease.
All the old recommendations are being gradually overturned and a return to saturated fat and ending restrictions on dietary cholesterol are all too slowly returning.
User avatar
Tom Butler
Posts: 107
Joined: February 23rd, 2017, 10:24 pm

Re: The Platonism of scientism

Post by Tom Butler »

thrasymachus wrote: July 20th, 2022, 11:44 am Scientism is the attempt to make science into a philosophy, ...
Interesting point of view. In my studies, I have learned to think of scientism as a person's assumption that "if science does not specifically account for something, that something cannot be ... and is therefore impossible." It is a belief in the supremacy of science to explain the world. I would not characterize scientism as a philosophy. It is more religious belief than scholarly observation.

The usual companion concept is "pseudoscience." In scientism, a person who studies that which is not supported by (mainstream) science is promoting false science. Here is a list of pseudoscience maintained by the cadre of skeptical Wikipedia Editors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... udoscience

I think in the final analysis, scientism is a form of obstructionisms seeking to maintain the status quo.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021