Superhero Obsession

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Sy Borg
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sy Borg »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 5:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 24th, 2022, 8:32 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 24th, 2022, 5:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 23rd, 2022, 3:36 pm
If humanity is in control, sure. However, humans are in about as much control of their destiny as a semi-trailer on a highway of black ice.
We chose to drive the "semi", we designed and made the "semi".
The machine does not influence.
Wrong. Of course machines and algorithms influence people. How could they not with regular daily exposure? There is a constant feedback between humans and machines. Machines are becoming more flexible, ever more capable of decisions, while humans have become ever less flexible over the last fifty years, ever more firmly locked into their morals, beliefs, ideologies and identity. Humans are ever more a cog in the larger machinery of society, their creativity and individuality being ever less valued, while greater conformity is demanded.
I think you really need to drop the Robots taking over the world fantasy, because there are humans dsigning all this stuff. When you blame the algorithm its like blaming the car for the driver.
Only those in denial would deny that machines are becoming ever more influential.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

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Sculptor1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 5:36 am I think you really need to drop the Robots taking over the world fantasy, because there are humans dsigning all this stuff. When you blame the algorithm its like blaming the car for the driver.
That only applies until you consider some AIs, that are capable of adjusting their own priorities, thereby redesigning their own programming. There are 'algorithms' that support such operation. In that case, the car is the driver; the human is a passenger.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

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Pattern-chaser wrote: August 26th, 2022, 7:50 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 25th, 2022, 5:36 am I think you really need to drop the Robots taking over the world fantasy, because there are humans dsigning all this stuff. When you blame the algorithm its like blaming the car for the driver.
That only applies until you consider some AIs, that are capable of adjusting their own priorities, thereby redesigning their own programming. There are 'algorithms' that support such operation. In that case, the car is the driver; the human is a passenger.
Fallacy. There is one way to stop AIs taking over the world...
image_2022-08-26_143723834.png
image_2022-08-26_143723834.png (52.25 KiB) Viewed 1029 times
You cannot argue with an AI, but you can challenge those that have control over the switch.
You are still blaming a car for what a driver does.
Mistaking the perpetrator means missing the solution completely.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Pattern-chaser »

I'm not sure about missing 'solutions', but an AI with the ability to reprogram itself is, to some extent, autonomous; the 'driver' is no longer in control. And as for on/off switches, imagine, for example, trying to 'turn off' the internet. Or a nuclear power plant. Or anything else that isn't simple enough just to be 'turned off' without damage or unintended effects.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 26th, 2022, 11:11 am I'm not sure about missing 'solutions', but an AI with the ability to reprogram itself is, to some extent, autonomous; the 'driver' is no longer in control. And as for on/off switches, imagine, for example, trying to 'turn off' the internet. Or a nuclear power plant. Or anything else that isn't simple enough just to be 'turned off' without damage or unintended effects.
You are still mistaking where the problem lies.
It is a common enough failing in the human species.
Like the shop keeper who is fed up with restocking the shelves of a particular product decides to stop stock the item entirely; the medic who blame cholesterol for atherosclerosis when its deposition is the body's response to damage done by inflammation from other cause; blaming dietary fat for people putting on weight when it is actually caused by eating carbohydrates that causes fat storage and breaks satiation; blaming immigration for the economic woes of the nation; blaming unions for inflation when they have not had a pay increase for 12 years; blaming the disease on the vaccine designed to prevent it; blaming social media for human behaviour, and blaming drugs by having a "war on drugs" because people get addicted. It aint the drugs with the problem.

You cannot understand or address problems if you do not embrace the problem at its source.

You seem to have a fantasy of autonomous computers wreaking havoc- but do not even have and example. And of you find one and blame the computer, then you are actually absolving the real culprits - the programmers who need to be brought to book for their failures.
When the dog eats the homework it is the fault of the child who allow the dog to get access.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Good_Egg »

An AI that becomes sentient crosses a category boundary, from being an object to that performs the will of others to being a subject with a will of it's own.

It hasn't happened, and we don't yet know if it can...
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Sy Borg
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sy Borg »

I referred to people being influenced by machines and algorithms. It is inevitable that humans will be ever more influenced by machines, despite Sculptor's objections, just as all organisms are influenced by their environment. If an environment is increasingly dominated by machines and algorithms, then these will influence the people.

We might figure that Gates, Musk, Bezos and other creators lie behind these machines, but working with machines and algorithms is not the same as working with the people who created them.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Good_Egg wrote: August 26th, 2022, 6:20 pm An AI that becomes sentient crosses a category boundary, from being an object to that performs the will of others to being a subject with a will of it's own.

It hasn't happened, and we don't yet know if it can...
👍

I think there is an intermediate position too. I think an AI could act autonomously (near enough) without necessarily approaching sentience. Once an AI can modify its own programming, it is no longer 'under (our) control'. It controls itself. Its initial actions will be strongly influenced by its programming, but as it changes itself more and more, the influence of its initial programming is diminished until it disappears.

As you observe, we have no glaring examples of computers 'running amok', but we have already seen accidents involving self-driven cars, and I expect more examples will follow in the future. Then, when we have more information to go on, it will become clear how (un)reasonable our current concerns will prove to be, one way or the other...
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sy Borg »

Influence does not require sentience, just repeated exposure.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by UniversalAlien »

So machine as superhero/super-villain and no more comments :?:

Yes, I can see the problem - What makes anyone think that an advanced AI capable of 'self' advancement will necessarily think as
the Humans who created him think :?:

Does a machine that possesses superiority over Humans consider terms like superhero or godlike, etc. :?: - Probably not



Now I want to consider other types of superheroes from fiction and film - Not possessing a necessarily supernatural power
- but having Human powers so advanced that they appear supernatural - Like 007 James Bond, who manages to dodge armies of
villainous assassins and ends up wining.

Or my new favorite superhero/super-villain Raymond Reddington from the now 10 year running series "The Blacklist"

I started watcing this last year and stopped 'cause I could not accept the premise that a master underworld criminal wanted by the
FBI for many years would suddenly turn himself in to the FBI - and then begin manipulating the FBI from within by giving them info
on other, and more dangerous criminals that they want - Thought it was ridiculous!

But I ran out of exciting sci-fi and my new favorite category espionage series so I deiced to give it another chance just for entertainment.

Now I can't stop watching it - Sometime crazy but always fascinating, a fantasy mixture of crime, espionage and sci-fi concepts
with the infamous master criminal manipulating the World by a mixture of genius, guts and ruthlessness.

A Superhero :?: - technically maybe not - But like James Bond his ability to triumph over impossible odds puts him
at least in the Superhuman category even if he is sometimes a super villain :!:
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Re: Superhero Obsession

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UniversalAlien wrote: October 15th, 2022, 4:19 pm So machine as superhero/super-villain and no more comments :?:

Yes, I can see the problem - What makes anyone think that an advanced AI capable of 'self' advancement will necessarily think as
the Humans who created him think :?:

Does a machine that possesses superiority over Humans consider terms like superhero or godlike, etc. :?: - Probably not



Now I want to consider other types of superheroes from fiction and film - Not possessing a necessarily supernatural power
- but having Human powers so advanced that they appear supernatural - Like 007 James Bond, who manages to dodge armies of
villainous assassins and ends up wining.

Or my new favorite superhero/super-villain Raymond Reddington from the now 10 year running series "The Blacklist"

I started watcing this last year and stopped 'cause I could not accept the premise that a master underworld criminal wanted by the
FBI for many years would suddenly turn himself in to the FBI - and then begin manipulating the FBI from within by giving them info
on other, and more dangerous criminals that they want - Thought it was ridiculous!

But I ran out of exciting sci-fi and my new favorite category espionage series so I deiced to give it another chance just for entertainment.

Now I can't stop watching it - Sometime crazy but always fascinating, a fantasy mixture of crime, espionage and sci-fi concepts
with the infamous master criminal manipulating the World by a mixture of genius, guts and ruthlessness.

A Superhero :?: - technically maybe not - But like James Bond his ability to triumph over impossible odds puts him
at least in the Superhuman category even if he is sometimes a super villain :!:
Fiction, of course can reflect whatever is in the author's imagination. As far as real life "villains" or what we call criminals, what makes for a super criminal is, of course power which is directly proportional to money. The power either is violent or through buying political power, which separates blue from white collar crime and criminals.

Since there are well appreciated and proven paths to money (drugs and financial shenanigans), having genius level intellect is not required.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by UniversalAlien »

LuckyR wrote:
Fiction, of course can reflect whatever is in the author's imagination. As far as real life "villains" or what we call criminals, what makes for a super criminal is, of course power which is directly proportional to money. The power either is violent or through buying political power, which separates blue from white collar crime and criminals.

Since there are well appreciated and proven paths to money (drugs and financial shenanigans), having genius level intellect is not required.
Genius :?: - Philosophical or academic genius can be measured by academic standards.

But how do you measure the cunning and skill of a super-criminal like 'El Chapo' the famous Mexican drug lord that brought the drug business in Mexico to a new peak - Or Pablo Escobar, famous drug dealer from Colombia who at one point was the most powerful man in the country :?:

The cute, and very over the top, thing about the fictional Raymond Reddington from 'the Blacklist' is he is just such a 'genius'.

Always giving comments that shows he knows all {'been there done that'} with bits of his philosophical views - Yes a super criminal and
philosopher to boot :!: Occasionally and in some episodes he actually kills people for moral or ethical reasons :roll:

But the idea of the contemporary superhero not being black and white is not limited to 'the Blacklist'
- Consider 'the Punisher', 'the Boys', Deadpool', etc.

Of course some purists might say I can't put 'James Bond' or Raymond Reddington in the superhero category because they do not have
supernatural powers - But I say being Superhuman is enough.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

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UniversalAlien wrote: October 16th, 2022, 8:47 pm LuckyR wrote:
Fiction, of course can reflect whatever is in the author's imagination. As far as real life "villains" or what we call criminals, what makes for a super criminal is, of course power which is directly proportional to money. The power either is violent or through buying political power, which separates blue from white collar crime and criminals.

Since there are well appreciated and proven paths to money (drugs and financial shenanigans), having genius level intellect is not required.
Genius :?: - Philosophical or academic genius can be measured by academic standards.

But how do you measure the cunning and skill of a super-criminal like 'El Chapo' the famous Mexican drug lord that brought the drug business in Mexico to a new peak - Or Pablo Escobar, famous drug dealer from Colombia who at one point was the most powerful man in the country :?:

The cute, and very over the top, thing about the fictional Raymond Reddington from 'the Blacklist' is he is just such a 'genius'.

Always giving comments that shows he knows all {'been there done that'} with bits of his philosophical views - Yes a super criminal and
philosopher to boot :!: Occasionally and in some episodes he actually kills people for moral or ethical reasons :roll:

But the idea of the contemporary superhero not being black and white is not limited to 'the Blacklist'
- Consider 'the Punisher', 'the Boys', Deadpool', etc.

Of course some purists might say I can't put 'James Bond' or Raymond Reddington in the superhero category because they do not have
supernatural powers - But I say being Superhuman is enough.
Well as I said, fictional characters can even be omnipotent or omniscient (or both). Real criminals such as El Chapo and Pablo Escobar, aren't even powerful or smart enough to avoid being killed before age 45 and not spend time in prison, something that even I have accomplished.
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Re: Superhero Obsession

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LuckyR wrote:
Well as I said, fictional characters can even be omnipotent or omniscient (or both). Real criminals such as El Chapo and Pablo Escobar, aren't even powerful or smart enough to avoid being killed before age 45 and not spend time in prison, something that even I have accomplished.
Yes, but when you consider the 'super-criminal' {or super-villain] in the real world El Chapo and Escobar are not really good examples of
underworld success stories - Better examples would be Carlo Gambino one of the major bosses of the Five Families that used to rule
organized crime {Mafia} who died of old age in bed with the government never able pin any serious charges on him - And of course
there is the very famous Meyer Lansky who with Benjamin 'Bugsy' Segal helped create the modern world of gambling in Las Vegas.
[Lansky also died of old age in bed at 80 with the government never able to convict him of any serious charges - Bugsy Segal on the other hand was not so fortunate and died of what was probably a mob 'hit'}.

Of course most people would consider underworld characters, including the fictional Raymond Reddington from the the Blacklist series,
to be 'super-villians' and not Superheroes :idea:

Of course in the modern world where the crime of bootlegging has morphed into the legitimate alcohol business and gambling is accepted most everywhere, and even some drugs such as marijuana have become legal in many places,
can some villains be redeemed historically and end up as heroes :?: - Happens all the time doesn't it :?:
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by LuckyR »

UniversalAlien wrote: October 20th, 2022, 4:34 pm LuckyR wrote:
Well as I said, fictional characters can even be omnipotent or omniscient (or both). Real criminals such as El Chapo and Pablo Escobar, aren't even powerful or smart enough to avoid being killed before age 45 and not spend time in prison, something that even I have accomplished.
Yes, but when you consider the 'super-criminal' {or super-villain] in the real world El Chapo and Escobar are not really good examples of
underworld success stories - Better examples would be Carlo Gambino one of the major bosses of the Five Families that used to rule
organized crime {Mafia} who died of old age in bed with the government never able pin any serious charges on him - And of course
there is the very famous Meyer Lansky who with Benjamin 'Bugsy' Segal helped create the modern world of gambling in Las Vegas.
[Lansky also died of old age in bed at 80 with the government never able to convict him of any serious charges - Bugsy Segal on the other hand was not so fortunate and died of what was probably a mob 'hit'}.

Of course most people would consider underworld characters, including the fictional Raymond Reddington from the the Blacklist series,
to be 'super-villians' and not Superheroes :idea:

Of course in the modern world where the crime of bootlegging has morphed into the legitimate alcohol business and gambling is accepted most everywhere, and even some drugs such as marijuana have become legal in many places,
can some villains be redeemed historically and end up as heroes :?: - Happens all the time doesn't it :?:
Well you came up with El Chapo and Escobar as examples, not me. As for Lansky, he never led the mafia and retired to Florida in poverty (unable to pay for health care for his handicapped son, for example). Gambino spent time in prison as did his son, again something even I (and hopefully you) am smart enough to avoid.
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