Superhero Obsession

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by UniversalAlien »

It is kind of weird - I mean some of the modern concepts of what makes a superhero.

There was the "Punisher" recently on Netflix who did really bad things to the bad guys - but he supposedly was really a good guy.

And then you have this politician who can do almost anything to almost anybody and his folowers are still willing to not only make
him out to be a superhero but virtually deify him as 'boss of bosses' - their idea of a superhero:

Image

The Blogs - The Times of Israel
Is Donald Trump a superhero or just insane? | Eli Kaufman | The Blogs


And you wonder why kids a so messed up now a days :?:
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Count Lucanor »

The Punisher relies on old tropes of fascist narratives. The hero is always an ex-cop, ex-marine, etc., exemplifying the virtues of patriotism. Usually a decent, humble, family man, personifying conservative values. He's always quiet, wants no trouble, because tough guys are masters of themselves, until the circumstances created by the bad guys force our hero to act and apply justice with a full license to kill without moral restrictions, while being applauded by an audience thirsty of revenge. The moral of the story is that you can go and kill children in Iraq, but you're still the good boy.

I'm not sure why or how Trump would fit the role of superhero. Born a rich kid that skipped military enrollment. Even only as the typical fascist leader, he seems to represent a very low standard. But it is the US, who knows.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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The Beast
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by The Beast »

When the dead awakens. The returning hero with a combination of despair and hope in a resurrection of the personality of the past, mutilated but awaiting the call to life. In the accounts of war “there is a marvelous shading from the indisputably proved horror to the horrors that are purely fantastic and that leave one with the greater fear because they cannot be pinned down to a certain meaning”. And what of the death or murders of the children? What of… “and then they lowered me into a tomb. There were bars at the window and padded walls, so that the shrieks from the tomb might not disturb those in the world above” When the dead are awakened, and the past is some dreadful dream of death, or some fragment told from the madhouse… from the ruins arise the superhero putting his love above all.
JDBowden
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by JDBowden »

Count Lucanor wrote: August 16th, 2022, 11:05 pm The archetypal hero has existed in art forms since the dawn of civilization. The hero is endowed with virtues and powers that set him apart from the common, mortal man. The modern superhero is in that sense not so much different than the old hero, except that the modern narratives of popular culture tend to emphazise the lowbrow character of the average, common man or woman, that lies beneath the hero's superpowers. In that way the modern consumers can look up to these superheroes as projections of themselves, they represent their desire to stand above the mediocrity of their lives.

Another element that makes the supehero's comic strips and movies so popular is the use of the iterative scheme, which Umberto Eco explains as the hunger and taste for redundance. As in most mass culture products, you basically get the same thing over and over, disguised every time as something new. That's what mass entertainment has always been about. And then you can also put these superhero movies under the "militainment" category, as in these narratives violence is combined with altruism and heroism to solve world problems, and often the supehero is a close collaborator of the police or the military, who are, of course, also members of the "good guys" club.
These heroes without a doubt have been around forever. Are we taking this thing too far though? Comicons, dress up, buying overpriced junk as props etc. I highly doubt the ancients played dress up in groups showing each other their ancient light sabers and paying fortunes to obtain them.

There is a line between admiration and taking things too far. With our topic of discussion here I am seeing it fall into the latter.
JDBowden
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by JDBowden »

UniversalAlien wrote: August 17th, 2022, 3:33 am It is kind of weird - I mean some of the modern concepts of what makes a superhero.

There was the "Punisher" recently on Netflix who did really bad things to the bad guys - but he supposedly was really a good guy.

And then you have this politician who can do almost anything to almost anybody and his folowers are still willing to not only make
him out to be a superhero but virtually deify him as 'boss of bosses' - their idea of a superhero:

Image

The Blogs - The Times of Israel
Is Donald Trump a superhero or just insane? | Eli Kaufman | The Blogs


And you wonder why kids a so messed up now a days :?:
What on earth does Trump have to do with, well, anything? Same can be said for our beloved Emperor Biden and right-hand-"man" Fauci. People worship the grounds these people walk on; regardless of political alignment right or left.
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LuckyR
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by LuckyR »

JDBowden wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:47 am
UniversalAlien wrote: August 17th, 2022, 3:33 am It is kind of weird - I mean some of the modern concepts of what makes a superhero.

There was the "Punisher" recently on Netflix who did really bad things to the bad guys - but he supposedly was really a good guy.

And then you have this politician who can do almost anything to almost anybody and his folowers are still willing to not only make
him out to be a superhero but virtually deify him as 'boss of bosses' - their idea of a superhero:

Image

The Blogs - The Times of Israel
Is Donald Trump a superhero or just insane? | Eli Kaufman | The Blogs


And you wonder why kids a so messed up now a days :?:
What on earth does Trump have to do with, well, anything? Same can be said for our beloved Emperor Biden and right-hand-"man" Fauci. People worship the grounds these people walk on; regardless of political alignment right or left.
Really? Love him or hate him, most I know consider Biden to be a bureaucrat, not a hero nor villain.
"As usual... it depends."
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Count Lucanor »

JDBowden wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:45 am
Count Lucanor wrote: August 16th, 2022, 11:05 pm The archetypal hero has existed in art forms since the dawn of civilization. The hero is endowed with virtues and powers that set him apart from the common, mortal man. The modern superhero is in that sense not so much different than the old hero, except that the modern narratives of popular culture tend to emphazise the lowbrow character of the average, common man or woman, that lies beneath the hero's superpowers. In that way the modern consumers can look up to these superheroes as projections of themselves, they represent their desire to stand above the mediocrity of their lives.

Another element that makes the supehero's comic strips and movies so popular is the use of the iterative scheme, which Umberto Eco explains as the hunger and taste for redundance. As in most mass culture products, you basically get the same thing over and over, disguised every time as something new. That's what mass entertainment has always been about. And then you can also put these superhero movies under the "militainment" category, as in these narratives violence is combined with altruism and heroism to solve world problems, and often the supehero is a close collaborator of the police or the military, who are, of course, also members of the "good guys" club.
These heroes without a doubt have been around forever. Are we taking this thing too far though? Comicons, dress up, buying overpriced junk as props etc. I highly doubt the ancients played dress up in groups showing each other their ancient light sabers and paying fortunes to obtain them.

There is a line between admiration and taking things too far. With our topic of discussion here I am seeing it fall into the latter.
I'm not sure what you mean by "we". It's the entertainment industry, the whole point is to build a strong base of loyal fans that become loyal consumers. No different than soccer fans.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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JackDaydream
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by JackDaydream »

JDBowden wrote: August 14th, 2022, 1:05 pm Hey again

The majority of my friends go absolutely bananas when a new superhero movies comes out. The fight between DC vs. Marvel etc.
They just cannot get enough of the comic book characters.

Personally, I loved them too.... when I was 5....

I am kind of in the camp that this modern day fanaticism for superheros is a justification for a lack of a real-world role model. As in, they require something/someone to "look up to" vs. what is within themselves. The quintessential hero to save the day so to speak because they feel their lives are too boring/meager and do not have the "power" to confront difficulties; whether that be internal or external struggles.

Any comments for adults loving superheros to the point of playing literal dress up and buying fake props of top-dollar "limited edition" items? Is it because they lack something internally? Or perhaps something else?

jdb
The idea of superheroes likely goes back to the mythical hero, as described by Joseph Campbell. It is central to stories and quests. The cultural components of this are likely to incorporate media icons, on a fantasy level. I remember pretending to be all kinds of characters such as Galen from 'Planet Of the Apes'. Also, I used to draw rock stars and pretend to be various members of rock bands. I even longed for a drum kit as a child even though I never told anyone this.

The heroes are mentors. When I grew up I still had rock heroes, like Bono from U2, and many stars from rock bands. However, it became deeper with writers, including William Blake, and even some philosophers. So, having heroes can be connected to images and glamour, but it may also be about role models and admiration for aspects of creative quests and even for examples of specific individuals who stand out amongst the human race, including spiritual leaders.
BrianKingofTrolls
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by BrianKingofTrolls »

they are a vacuous, low-dimensional replacement for a modern mythology. all religions are old as hell, many modern humans cannot relate, and so marvel and star wars is the closest thing they have to a spiritual tradition. which is really quite sad.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sy Borg »

There's a few that I enjoy - Thor Ragnarok was the best IMO because it was as much a satire of superheroes as a superhero movie, and very funny at times.

Ultimately, modern supermovie movies are exactly like modern pop music. Art reflects life and what we see is pop art being produced by machines, with ever less human input. This makes them economic, precise and highly professional. It also makes modern music and movies less sophisticated, lyrical, unpredictable and deep.

In music you can see it by comparing the chord charts (ie. harmonic content) of music up to the 80s and music since. Completely rationalised. In movies you can tell by the simplistic dialogue, as compared with the relative sophistication of earlier movies.

Welcome to the future - devised according to a formula, and built by programmers and the machines they make.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sculptor1 »

America has trivialised the whole concept of literary hero.
I much prefer heroes who stay within human limits.
Hector, Achilleus, and Odysseus were the first heroes of Western Literature, and they like all heroes of the Homeric age were by and large imaginable as real people. Even Demigods such as Herakles, though with super human strength had vulnerabilities and limits.
Humans who are remarkable are more admirable than any 20thC American superhero, who has a bunch tend to have stupid physics transgressing idiotic "powers" with the exception of The Batman.
So my favourite superhero is Sherlock Holmes whose superb qualities at observation, deduction and induction are qualities that we can all aspire to.
Initially the idea that Superman was powerful came from an idea that he enjoyed lower gravity than on Krypton. But at first he was only able to "leap tall buildings at a single bound" , like John Carter on Mars, but that skill soon turned to silly lengths - able to fly into space without expending any energy.
Ecurb
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Ecurb »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2022, 9:56 am America has trivialised the whole concept of literary hero.
I much prefer heroes who stay within human limits.
Hector, Achilleus, and Odysseus were the first heroes of Western Literature, and they like all heroes of the Homeric age were by and large imaginable as real people. Even Demigods such as Herakles, though with super human strength had vulnerabilities and limits.
Humans who are remarkable are more admirable than any 20thC American superhero, who has a bunch tend to have stupid physics transgressing idiotic "powers" with the exception of The Batman.
So my favourite superhero is Sherlock Holmes whose superb qualities at observation, deduction and induction are qualities that we can all aspire to.
Initially the idea that Superman was powerful came from an idea that he enjoyed lower gravity than on Krypton. But at first he was only able to "leap tall buildings at a single bound" , like John Carter on Mars, but that skill soon turned to silly lengths - able to fly into space without expending any energy.
I like Hector, Achilles and Odysseus as much as anyone. Sherlock Holmes, however, has not aged well, Many of the stories are racist (not surprising in 19th century England, where a common saying was, "The wogs begin in Calais"). Worse,by modern standards the mysteries are either manipulative or silly. Sometimes Conan Doyle hides a key element from the reader; at other times the mysteries are simply implausible. I can't give the details, because it's been a few decades since I've read Sherlock Holmes books, but when I revisited them as an adult, they were invariably disappointing.

I'll grant that Sherlock was influential, and helped create a new genre of novels. Also, Sherlock and Watson are interesting characters (and formed the archetype for the eccentric detective). But the stories themselves have not stood the test of time.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ecurb wrote: August 18th, 2022, 10:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2022, 9:56 am America has trivialised the whole concept of literary hero.
I much prefer heroes who stay within human limits.
Hector, Achilleus, and Odysseus were the first heroes of Western Literature, and they like all heroes of the Homeric age were by and large imaginable as real people. Even Demigods such as Herakles, though with super human strength had vulnerabilities and limits.
Humans who are remarkable are more admirable than any 20thC American superhero, who has a bunch tend to have stupid physics transgressing idiotic "powers" with the exception of The Batman.
So my favourite superhero is Sherlock Holmes whose superb qualities at observation, deduction and induction are qualities that we can all aspire to.
Initially the idea that Superman was powerful came from an idea that he enjoyed lower gravity than on Krypton. But at first he was only able to "leap tall buildings at a single bound" , like John Carter on Mars, but that skill soon turned to silly lengths - able to fly into space without expending any energy.
I like Hector, Achilles and Odysseus as much as anyone. Sherlock Holmes, however, has not aged well, Many of the stories are racist (not surprising in 19th century England, where a common saying was, "The wogs begin in Calais"). Worse, by modern standards the mysteries are either manipulative or silly. Sometimes Conan Doyle hides a key element from the reader; at other times the mysteries are simply implausible. I can't give the details, because it's been a few decades since I've read Sherlock Holmes books, but when I revisited them as an adult, they were invariably disappointing.

I'll grant that Sherlock was influential, and helped create a new genre of novels. Also, Sherlock and Watson are interesting characters (and formed the archetype for the eccentric detective). But the stories themselves have not stood the test of time.
The stories were written as serials in the Newspaper. This accounts for their often choppy style.

Sherlock Holmes is monumental. It has spawned so many versions and copy-cats. Basically all fiction from that era is racist, but he's evolving.
In this century alone I can think of three major TV series: Elementary with Jonny Lee Miller, Sherlock with Benedict Cumberbatch, and House (with Hugh Laurie as a forensic doctor) and a stand alone film Mr Holmes and Robert Downey Jnr's two film directed by Guy Ritchie.

The Best SH is the portrayal of all time is by Jeremy Brett. If you ever get to see the ITV series. A role that basically killed him. No one ever played him with such grace, energy and intensity.- and no idiotic deerstalker hat.

If the concept is so bad then you have to ask why not write something new?

If racism is a problem then you might want to take a closer look at Homer, btw!
Ecurb
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Ecurb »

I've never seen any of the adaptations. Perhaps they improve the plots. Holmes is justly famous because the detective genre was almost unknown before Conan Doyle created it. Edgar Allen Poe is often credited with writing the first English language detective story, and Wilkie Collins's "The Woman in White" and "The Moonstone" might be the first mystery novels.

I can remember only a few of Conan Doyle's plots, but many of them strain credulity. IN "A case of Identity" Mary's fiance makes her promise to be faithful "no matter what". Then he disappears before the wedding. Holmes deduces that the fiance is actually Mary's step father in disguise, who wants her to remain single so he can control her inheritance. Huh? I don't care how good the disguise is, one would think Mary could recognize her own step father.

Silly disguises return in "the Man with the Twisted Lip", in which a fake suicide is uncovered and a beggar is charged with murder. It turns out that the beggar is, in fact, the supposedly murdered man in disguise, and has discovered that begging is actually more lucrative than his middle-class job.

These are two that I remember, but almost all of the plots are silly. I don't know if the movies and TV adaptations use the original plots or not.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Superhero Obsession

Post by Sy Borg »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2022, 9:56 amI much prefer heroes who stay within human limits.
Yes, I like movies where, if a person falls from a great height, they die, or if they fall from a moderate height, they would be hurt, as in early Star Trek. The worst offender was the Wachowski's Jupiter Ascending, which should have been called Jupiter Descending because the titular charcter spent half the movie falling from insane heights. Worse, if you are falling in an artificial city inside Jupiter, then you are moving at about 400m/s, which is about 1,400kph. So, when she throws out a hand to grasp a metal railing at that speed, just imagine what would happen to your arm if a metal bar flying through the air hit it at greater than the speed of sound.

Another gripe. When characters see something terrifying, most won't respond like machines and fearlessly leap into action, but freeze in shock (there was a great example of this in Stephen King's Dreamcatcher, regardless of its silliness at times).

I enjoyed Todd Phillips's Joker, with Joaquin Phoenix in scintillating form. I suppose it wasn't really a superhero movie, just loosely set in the Marvel Universe. Then again, I enjoyed Infinity Wars, where every single character was overpowered.

There's not much respect for physics and biology in modern movies, which perhaps reflects the US's growing tendency to embrace superstition, with an associated desire to escape physical reality.
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