What about hunting?
-
- Posts: 2138
- Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm
What about hunting?
Why do I bring this up?
One of my friends has a deer license, and tomorrow is opening day. It so happens I have a deer rifle: a .700 Remington magnum and about 80 rounds of ammunition. I inherited them when my son's step father (who was a hunter) died. My son has two little kids, so he didn't want the rifle, but thought he might want it in the future. So I kept it for him. I stored it separately from the ammo in the rafters of my house -- so that if my house was burglarized, nobody would find it. I don't know how to load or shoot it (although I'm sure I could figure it out).
My friend doesn't own a rifle, but has experience with firearms. He's stopping by in an hour or so, and we're going to the range to sight in the rifle. Then we'll have to decide whether to wake up at 4:00 am tomorrow and try for a buck.
I've already told him I'm glad to go hunting, but I hope we don't kill anything. Partly, I'd like to go because I haven't hung out with this guy for several months and he's a good friend (I was in Europe and then he was in Bali and Thailand). Also, I have no idea what to do with a deer if we do shoot one. I did eat many a venison (and elk) steak that my son's step father bagged.
So I have to make a decisison by tomorrow. Any feedback?
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
So much to unpack here.Ecurb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2022, 1:47 pm I've never hunted game. However, as a life long outdoorsman, I sometimes think I've missed out on one of the visceral outdoor activities that binds us to our ancestors abnd explores our traditional relationship with the natural world. Also, I'm a Hemmingway fan.
Why do I bring this up?
One of my friends has a deer license, and tomorrow is opening day. It so happens I have a deer rifle: a .700 Remington magnum and about 80 rounds of ammunition. I inherited them when my son's step father (who was a hunter) died. My son has two little kids, so he didn't want the rifle, but thought he might want it in the future. So I kept it for him. I stored it separately from the ammo in the rafters of my house -- so that if my house was burglarized, nobody would find it. I don't know how to load or shoot it (although I'm sure I could figure it out).
My friend doesn't own a rifle, but has experience with firearms. He's stopping by in an hour or so, and we're going to the range to sight in the rifle. Then we'll have to decide whether to wake up at 4:00 am tomorrow and try for a buck.
I've already told him I'm glad to go hunting, but I hope we don't kill anything. Partly, I'd like to go because I haven't hung out with this guy for several months and he's a good friend (I was in Europe and then he was in Bali and Thailand). Also, I have no idea what to do with a deer if we do shoot one. I did eat many a venison (and elk) steak that my son's step father bagged.
So I have to make a decisison by tomorrow. Any feedback?
In no particular order:
Shooting firearms is fun for many. Doesn't matter at what, target shooting is fine. (Bring ear protection).
Being able to hit what you're aiming at, especially at distance, is a skill. Not one that is easily or quickly acquired. This is the reason NOT to go hunting tomorrow. If you are going to shoot at an animal, you have an (moral) obligation to perform a clean (humane) kill, by being reasonably able to hit the part of the animal that is going to result in a rapid (if not instaneous) death. Otherwise you are most likely going to wound the animal who will likely run off beyond your ability to track it, to die a prolonged and gruesome death.
Having said that, target shooting to acquire that skill can be very fun and rewarding. Once you have that skill, hunting animals CAN become an ethical option. Other, (non gun related) issues then come into play.
Most on this Forum think of guns through a single lens, namely mass murder. I'm not really worried about you in this area.
-
- Posts: 2138
- Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm
Re: What about hunting?
I was pretty accurate on the range, hitting a target about 10 inches in diameter every time from 100 yards. Most of my shots were in ideal conditions though, steadying the rifle against a rest. I'm reasonably confident in my accuracy. My friend will probably carry the rifle most of the time and (if we do see a deer) do the shooting. I did manage to cut my eyebrow when the scope recoiled against it.
Deer are actually overpopulated in this area, so although some may think hunting is cruel, it is environmentally sound. I'll report back (probably to say we didn't see any deer). I'm going out of town shortly, so I'll leave the rifle with my firend if he wants to do more hunting with it.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
Have fun, good shooting and don't shoot until you are 100% certain of what you are sighting on (don't mock, it totally happens). And dress to maximize your visibility on opening day, as there is a higher percentage of beer fueled yahoos that day.Ecurb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2022, 7:14 pm I just got back from target shooting and making sure the rifle's scope was adjusted properly, and my friend is picking me up at 4:30 tomnorrow morning. Deer are active at night, and at dawn and dusk. We'll drive about 40 minutes to get to a spot recommended by the guys at the shooting range.
I was pretty accurate on the range, hitting a target about 10 inches in diameter every time from 100 yards. Most of my shots were in ideal conditions though, steadying the rifle against a rest. I'm reasonably confident in my accuracy. My friend will probably carry the rifle most of the time and (if we do see a deer) do the shooting. I did manage to cut my eyebrow when the scope recoiled against it.
Deer are actually overpopulated in this area, so although some may think hunting is cruel, it is environmentally sound. I'll report back (probably to say we didn't see any deer). I'm going out of town shortly, so I'll leave the rifle with my firend if he wants to do more hunting with it.
Good luck.
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: What about hunting?
I wouldn't kill a mammal or bird (unless it was attacking me) but I do fish --- mostly catch-and-release, but if I'm camping at the creek always keep a couple to roast over the campfire that night (if I'm lucky enough to catch any). In your position I'd go along, take my camera, maybe get some wildlife photos while my friend did the hunting.Ecurb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2022, 1:47 pm
I've already told him I'm glad to go hunting, but I hope we don't kill anything. Partly, I'd like to go because I haven't hung out with this guy for several months and he's a good friend (I was in Europe and then he was in Bali and Thailand). Also, I have no idea what to do with a deer if we do shoot one. I did eat many a venison (and elk) steak that my son's step father bagged.
So I have to make a decisison by tomorrow. Any feedback?
Recreational hunting (as opposed to subsistence hunting) is inconsistent with my own private morality. But I'm not sure prohibiting it can be derived from a rational public morality. Hence to each his own.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
Well he did say he lives where there are too many deer. Almost certainly because of the human impact on their predators, so it is an ethical human responsibility to step in and perform the predator role for the benefit of the entire ecosystem. At least until the predators can be reintroduced.GE Morton wrote: ↑September 30th, 2022, 9:24 pmI wouldn't kill a mammal or bird (unless it was attacking me) but I do fish --- mostly catch-and-release, but if I'm camping at the creek always keep a couple to roast over the campfire that night (if I'm lucky enough to catch any). In your position I'd go along, take my camera, maybe get some wildlife photos while my friend did the hunting.Ecurb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2022, 1:47 pm
I've already told him I'm glad to go hunting, but I hope we don't kill anything. Partly, I'd like to go because I haven't hung out with this guy for several months and he's a good friend (I was in Europe and then he was in Bali and Thailand). Also, I have no idea what to do with a deer if we do shoot one. I did eat many a venison (and elk) steak that my son's step father bagged.
So I have to make a decisison by tomorrow. Any feedback?
Recreational hunting (as opposed to subsistence hunting) is inconsistent with my own private morality. But I'm not sure prohibiting it can be derived from a rational public morality. Hence to each his own.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: What about hunting?
In simple terms, it is not easy to see guns as anything other than weapons of destruction and death. This is not the whole story, admittedly, but it is the headline, and it seems difficult to counter, in general terms.
Yes, subsistence hunting, as you call it, would seem to be different — morally, and maybe otherwise too — but hunting does not necessarily require the use of firearms.
So, although I am guilty of seeing guns through that "single lens" that LuckyR refers to, I see some strong arguments for this perspective.
"Who cares, wins"
-
- Posts: 502
- Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am
Re: What about hunting?
I think you are talking about not all guns but assault rifles. They are associated with mass murder and poor sportsmanship on the part of hunters who need to spray their intended target in hopes of hitting it.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 8:07 amIn simple terms, it is not easy to see guns as anything other than weapons of destruction and death. This is not the whole story, admittedly, but it is the headline, and it seems difficult to counter, in general terms.
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: What about hunting?
If by "assault rifle" you mean the semi-auto rifles so mis-named by the gun banners, they don't "spray." They are not full-auto rifles. Most modern rifles sold in the US, and virtually all handguns, are semi-auto.AverageBozo wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 11:08 am
I think you are talking about not all guns but assault rifles. They are associated with mass murder and poor sportsmanship on the part of hunters who need to spray their intended target in hopes of hitting it.
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: What about hunting?
In that case the hunting is not entirely recreational.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 1:37 am
Well he did say he lives where there are too many deer. Almost certainly because of the human impact on their predators, so it is an ethical human responsibility to step in and perform the predator role for the benefit of the entire ecosystem. At least until the predators can be reintroduced.
-
- Posts: 2138
- Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm
Re: What about hunting?
I think that objections to hunting are more aesthetic than moral (for those of us who eat meat). It's a bit strange to say that it's more moral to have someone else do your killing for you, so you can buy your steaks pre-packaged at the supermarket and forget that they came from an animal. In fact, in many countries, meat is often sold looking more like dead animals than it does in the U.S. Here we don't like to be reminded of where it comes from.
Of course the aesthetic objections are reasonable; someone (I, for example) might find killing ugly and distasteful.
Our hunting tactics were mediocre. I knew the most effective way to hunt is to hunker down in some spot where deer are likely to pass by and wait. We tried that for about 30 minutes, and then got bored so we spent the rest of the day hiking about, looking around us, and talking loud enough to scare any deer away.
My only regret is that I wanted to say to my lady friends, "Welp, we got us some good middlin' meat for the women-folk." No such luck. I'm leaving my rifle with my licensed friend and going out of town in a couple of days.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
While you are correct that full auto assault rifles aren't legal, the large capacity magazines that the semi auto assault rifles use make them indistinguishable from true military assault rifles. Specifically, if a school shooter actually owned a full auto assault rifle, they would set the rifle to "semi auto" since "full auto" would burn through his ammo such that it would severely limit the number of individuals who would be engaged. That is rapidly putting 5 bullets into each target would limit the total targets per 30 round mag to 6, instead of 30 when on semi auto.GE Morton wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 11:20 amIf by "assault rifle" you mean the semi-auto rifles so mis-named by the gun banners, they don't "spray." They are not full-auto rifles. Most modern rifles sold in the US, and virtually all handguns, are semi-auto.AverageBozo wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 11:08 am
I think you are talking about not all guns but assault rifles. They are associated with mass murder and poor sportsmanship on the part of hunters who need to spray their intended target in hopes of hitting it.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
Few things in Real Life aren't multifactorial, if viewed in enough detail.GE Morton wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 11:22 amIn that case the hunting is not entirely recreational.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 1:37 am
Well he did say he lives where there are too many deer. Almost certainly because of the human impact on their predators, so it is an ethical human responsibility to step in and perform the predator role for the benefit of the entire ecosystem. At least until the predators can be reintroduced.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
Well played all the way around. What did you think about target shooting?Ecurb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 4:48 pm I'm back from the wilderness, and I didn't kill anything. We never saw a deer (fortunately for me).
I think that objections to hunting are more aesthetic than moral (for those of us who eat meat). It's a bit strange to say that it's more moral to have someone else do your killing for you, so you can buy your steaks pre-packaged at the supermarket and forget that they came from an animal. In fact, in many countries, meat is often sold looking more like dead animals than it does in the U.S. Here we don't like to be reminded of where it comes from.
Of course the aesthetic objections are reasonable; someone (I, for example) might find killing ugly and distasteful.
Our hunting tactics were mediocre. I knew the most effective way to hunt is to hunker down in some spot where deer are likely to pass by and wait. We tried that for about 30 minutes, and then got bored so we spent the rest of the day hiking about, looking around us, and talking loud enough to scare any deer away.
My only regret is that I wanted to say to my lady friends, "Welp, we got us some good middlin' meat for the women-folk." No such luck. I'm leaving my rifle with my licensed friend and going out of town in a couple of days.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What about hunting?
Guns fall into various functional categories. Many, especially handguns are purchased specifically for "self defense". They are generally either never fired or are fired at targets (in anticipation of it's defensive role which never occurs). Depending on the characteristics of the owner they may be involved in a suicide, accident or murder in descending order of frequency, though only a small minority of guns will. Other guns are acquired specifically to participate in the sport of target or skeet shooting. These firearms will almost never be used for anything else. There are hunting guns, typically rifles and shotguns. These are rarely used in criminal activities, though will be associated with some suicides and accidents. Lastly there are guns that resemble military assault rifles. The purchasers of which are willing to pay a premium to frankly appear as something that they generally aren't. Namely, courageous and/or bada55.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 8:07 amIn simple terms, it is not easy to see guns as anything other than weapons of destruction and death. This is not the whole story, admittedly, but it is the headline, and it seems difficult to counter, in general terms.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023