Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

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JackDaydream
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Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by JackDaydream »

I am not asking about ideas which you dislike, although beliefs and philosophies are viewed subjectively as well as in a more analytical way. The specific focus which I am considering is about the consequences of applying philosophy to life. It is partly linked to the way in which ideas may become ideologies. It is also about the moral responsibilities connected to knowledge.

The following quote by Max Stirner, a philosopher of egoism is worth thinking about:
'Do I write out of love to men. No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from the seed of thought_ I would nevertheless scatter it.'
Stirner' s viewpoint is stark in the way that it does not involve any concern on the ripple effects of ideas.'

It can be asked about how Nietzsche's ideas were used to support Nazism. It is unlikely that he meant his philosophy to be interpreted in such a way. There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history. Also, Marx developed his political critique but it can be asked to what extent were the forms of socialism were what he intended or foresaw occurring in response to his writings?

Philosophy is about understanding, but is it about 'truth' at all costs? Are some ideas dangerous intrinsically and, how important is it to think about the potential applications pragmatically and ethically in personal, social and political life?
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by LuckyR »

JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am I am not asking about ideas which you dislike, although beliefs and philosophies are viewed subjectively as well as in a more analytical way. The specific focus which I am considering is about the consequences of applying philosophy to life. It is partly linked to the way in which ideas may become ideologies. It is also about the moral responsibilities connected to knowledge.

The following quote by Max Stirner, a philosopher of egoism is worth thinking about:
'Do I write out of love to men. No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from the seed of thought_ I would nevertheless scatter it.'
Stirner' s viewpoint is stark in the way that it does not involve any concern on the ripple effects of ideas.'

It can be asked about how Nietzsche's ideas were used to support Nazism. It is unlikely that he meant his philosophy to be interpreted in such a way. There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history. Also, Marx developed his political critique but it can be asked to what extent were the forms of socialism were what he intended or foresaw occurring in response to his writings?

Philosophy is about understanding, but is it about 'truth' at all costs? Are some ideas dangerous intrinsically and, how important is it to think about the potential applications pragmatically and ethically in personal, social and political life?
There was a time when it was more common to observe one's surroundings, the interactions of individuals and groups, ponder these and come up with a Philosophy. Now it is more common to have a goal, then shop amongst Philosophies until you find one that supports what you want to promote (typically for your personal benefit), then broadcast that Philosophy in order to gain power and wealth.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by Sy Borg »

It may be a matter of context. Some ideas will be inspiring to some and misleading for others, eg. when a star says, 'You can do anything you set your mind to'. Some ideas that work in societies with vast populations will be harmful to those with smaller populations, akin to cracking a nut with a sledgehammer eg. authoritarianism.
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by heracleitos »

JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history.
I wish someone had told Paul, the false apostle, the apostate from the law, to please shut up, before it would be too late:
Paul the Heresiarch wrote: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law", Galatians 3:10-14
That is incredibly nonsensical.

About the crucifixion episode he says:
Paul the Heresiarch wrote: Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree, Galatians 3:13
In his epistles, Paul goes on, and on, about how there should be no law:
Paul the Heresiarch wrote: You are not under law but under grace, Romans 6:14
They should have burned Paul at the stake. Could someone go back and please do it? I would be most grateful!
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?
In the context of this topic, would you say that a religious or a political ideology is a "philosophy"? I'm not trying a derail, along the lines of 'if you don't define your terms, I refuse to participate!' I'm just not sure if (for example) Christianity or Capitalism are suitable subjects here?
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by JackDaydream »

LuckyR wrote: October 1st, 2022, 1:54 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am I am not asking about ideas which you dislike, although beliefs and philosophies are viewed subjectively as well as in a more analytical way. The specific focus which I am considering is about the consequences of applying philosophy to life. It is partly linked to the way in which ideas may become ideologies. It is also about the moral responsibilities connected to knowledge.

The following quote by Max Stirner, a philosopher of egoism is worth thinking about:
'Do I write out of love to men. No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from the seed of thought_ I would nevertheless scatter it.'
Stirner' s viewpoint is stark in the way that it does not involve any concern on the ripple effects of ideas.'

It can be asked about how Nietzsche's ideas were used to support Nazism. It is unlikely that he meant his philosophy to be interpreted in such a way. There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history. Also, Marx developed his political critique but it can be asked to what extent were the forms of socialism were what he intended or foresaw occurring in response to his writings?

Philosophy is about understanding, but is it about 'truth' at all costs? Are some ideas dangerous intrinsically and, how important is it to think about the potential applications pragmatically and ethically in personal, social and political life?
There was a time when it was more common to observe one's surroundings, the interactions of individuals and groups, ponder these and come up with a Philosophy. Now it is more common to have a goal, then shop amongst Philosophies until you find one that supports what you want to promote (typically for your personal benefit), then broadcast that Philosophy in order to gain power and wealth.
The internet is probably making ideas become like a marketplace, especially in the time of pluralism. It is important to think about how people may choose a philosophy on the basis of its benefits for them, especially psychological ones. Many people may not be aware of how they may do this, because it may be done subconsciously. I prefer to be conscious of my own choices of beliefs and philosophies rather than being in denial. Perhaps, the examination of one's own motives may lead to a greater consciousness of discrepancies in ideas held as a starting point for deeper reflection on values and knowledge with greater clarity of gaps in personal understanding of why ideas work and why.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by JackDaydream »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 1st, 2022, 9:33 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?
In the context of this topic, would you say that a religious or a political ideology is a "philosophy"? I'm not trying a derail, along the lines of 'if you don't define your terms, I refuse to participate!' I'm just not sure if (for example) Christianity or Capitalism are suitable subjects here?
The overlap between religion and politics with philosophy is complicated because some thinkers combined these. For example, Augustine and Aquinas drew on Greek philosophy and Kantian thinking is a mixture of the two. It may be that the various disciplines were combined more in the past and specialisation has lead to them diverging so much. It could be that philosophy is the one which looks to the various disciplines, including religion, politics, science and the humanities because it is the one which focuses on ideas in particular.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: October 1st, 2022, 2:07 am It may be a matter of context. Some ideas will be inspiring to some and misleading for others, eg. when a star says, 'You can do anything you set your mind to'. Some ideas that work in societies with vast populations will be harmful to those with smaller populations, akin to cracking a nut with a sledgehammer eg. authoritarianism.
It may be that ideas evolve in connection with needs as Oliver Sacks described as "cultural climate change'. One aspect which I have thought about is how ideas about life after death may have certain values. In particular, I have come across many people who were contemplating suicide and the fear of what may be on the other side of death was a protective factor which stopped them from killing themselves..

Of course, that is not to say that belief in life after death is one which is always positive. It may have been interconnected with the idea of hope of another life rather than this lifetime in the here and now. This negative aspect was one which I saw as problematic and influential when I have been puzzling over the issue of life after death..

In addition, one negative way in which life after death comes in is that some extremist terrorists believe that the act of killing enemies and oneself in terrorist acts will mean that they go straight to heaven.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by JackDaydream »

heracleitos wrote: October 1st, 2022, 5:41 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history.
I wish someone had told Paul, the false apostle, the apostate from the law, to please shut up, before it would be too late:
Paul the Heresiarch wrote: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law", Galatians 3:10-14
That is incredibly nonsensical.

About the crucifixion episode he says:
Paul the Heresiarch wrote: Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree, Galatians 3:13
In his epistles, Paul goes on, and on, about how there should be no law:
Paul the Heresiarch wrote: You are not under law but under grace, Romans 6:14
They should have burned Paul at the stake. Could someone go back and please do it? I would be most grateful!
I have struggled with the ideas of Paul, in his various writings, and his significance in the formation of early Christianity. So much of Christian belief comes down to his writings and my understanding is that his writings were the only ones which are likely to have been by the name of the author. He was younger, but it is an interesting story because Paul began as someone who was so opposed to Christ until he was struck down in a conversion experience, that is if the story is genuine. However, the account of Paul is one involving a complete turn around in his outlook. The reason why Paul's influence is viewed negatively by many, including myself, is that there is so much emphasis on sin and, also, a strong emphasis on perfection as a goal, often in conjunction with puritanical goals.

Nevertheless, I do like to look at various perspectives and came across an unusual one in a book, 'Paul's New Moment: Continental Philosophy and the Future of Christian Theology', by John Milbank, Slavoj Zizek and Creston Davis(2010). These authors do look at the assumptions which Paul makes, especially how his approach is linked to the belief in Jesus's resurrection and that of everyone in the future. However, the line of thinking in the book is an unusual one because it traces some interest in Paul's writings in the continent amongst atheist and agnostic philosophers. This is that Paul's ideas are seen as a contrast to Western liberalism, as a starting point for the value of loving and caring for others as a foundation for ethics. Of course, the emphasis on loving one's neighbour was also the central message of Jesus and many other spiritual leaders. But, in the book the authors connect the traditional of theology with some emergence of ideas within European theology..l
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am I am not asking about ideas which you dislike, although beliefs and philosophies are viewed subjectively as well as in a more analytical way. The specific focus which I am considering is about the consequences of applying philosophy to life. It is partly linked to the way in which ideas may become ideologies. It is also about the moral responsibilities connected to knowledge.

The following quote by Max Stirner, a philosopher of egoism is worth thinking about:
'Do I write out of love to men. No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from the seed of thought_ I would nevertheless scatter it.'
Stirner' s viewpoint is stark in the way that it does not involve any concern on the ripple effects of ideas.'

It can be asked about how Nietzsche's ideas were used to support Nazism. It is unlikely that he meant his philosophy to be interpreted in such a way. There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history. Also, Marx developed his political critique but it can be asked to what extent were the forms of socialism were what he intended or foresaw occurring in response to his writings?

Philosophy is about understanding, but is it about 'truth' at all costs? Are some ideas dangerous intrinsically and, how important is it to think about the potential applications pragmatically and ethically in personal, social and political life?
Philosophy as such is either useless (best case) or toxic (worst case).
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by JackDaydream »

stevie wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 1:07 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am I am not asking about ideas which you dislike, although beliefs and philosophies are viewed subjectively as well as in a more analytical way. The specific focus which I am considering is about the consequences of applying philosophy to life. It is partly linked to the way in which ideas may become ideologies. It is also about the moral responsibilities connected to knowledge.

The following quote by Max Stirner, a philosopher of egoism is worth thinking about:
'Do I write out of love to men. No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from the seed of thought_ I would nevertheless scatter it.'
Stirner' s viewpoint is stark in the way that it does not involve any concern on the ripple effects of ideas.'

It can be asked about how Nietzsche's ideas were used to support Nazism. It is unlikely that he meant his philosophy to be interpreted in such a way. There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history. Also, Marx developed his political critique but it can be asked to what extent were the forms of socialism were what he intended or foresaw occurring in response to his writings?

Philosophy is about understanding, but is it about 'truth' at all costs? Are some ideas dangerous intrinsically and, how important is it to think about the potential applications pragmatically and ethically in personal, social and political life?
Philosophy as such is either useless (best case) or toxic (worst case).
The thread isn't aimed at making generalisations about philosophy as a whole, but at particular ideas which have negative consequences. Are there any specific ideas or systems of thought which you identify as being toxic?
heracleitos
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by heracleitos »

JackDaydream wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 4:27 am Are there any specific ideas or systems of thought which you identify as being toxic?
Antinomianism is highly toxic:
Wikipedia on "antinomianism" wrote: Antinomianism (Ancient Greek: ἀντί [anti] "against" and νόμος [nomos] "law") is any view which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms (Latin: mores), or is at least considered to do so.
In modern lingo:
Don't worry because Jesus still loves you!
Embrace promiscuity as sex positivity and gluttony as fat positivity because it is preferable to embrace and indulge in the problem than to do something about it!

By the way, is Vladimir Putin right that the West has become Satanic, i.e. an instrument of the devil? He is definitely not the first or the only one to make that remark.
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by Quirelune »

I've heard that Sartre was excommunicated by the Pope and many philosophers shunned him afterwards and avoided the label of 'existentialist' at all costs, even if they were, by all accounts, existentialists. The reason was that he was an atheist. Too popular of an atheist, which is why the Pope himself took note of him and that his philosophy spread atheism among the masses.

A lot of philosophers have ideas that can be taken too far by their followers. Take Aristotle, he basically has an excuse for slavery in his philosophy. After all, everyone who doesn't live in a polis is not a human being, according to him, so they can be enslaved and it's even to their benefit. A similar slavery excuse can be found in Hegel, even though afaik he never openly endorsed slavery, but he can be interpreted as such: according to him, history begins from the State, so it can be argued that just like Aristotle, he doesn't consider people in various tribes fully human.

Hegel was taken in directions vastly other than he anticipated in different ways, though. For example, by Marx! For a smaller but telling example: during the lectures we were told that some Russian philosopher (can't remember the name), after reading Hegel, was immediately struck by the idea of necessity of revolution in Russia. But Hegel never wrote about revolutions, right? The reason was Hegel's insistence on Spirit being rational: there was nothing rational about the situation in Russia (which was basically medieval by that point), yet the Spirit cannot possibly have irrational designs, and so that philosopher became certain that the situation had to be changed from irrational to rational. We were told that he started spreading the idea of revolution all over Russia after reading Hegel.

I can't say if any of these were bad ideas or not, a revolution in a feudal society with 99% of its population being abused was likely not. Aristotle's excuse for slavery was definitely 'toxic', though. Anyway, those were just examples I know of when philosophers' ideas caused controversy or were interpreted in radical ways. I'm sure there are plenty more.
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by Samana Johann »

What ever way of thinking is based on wrong view, good householder, works for one's own misery and that of many.

And what is wrong thinking based on wrong view?
There is the case where a certain person is covetous. He covets the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: 'May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!' He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
And what is right thinking, based on right view, leading to one's own long term happiness and that of others:
There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
How one thinks, so one speaks, acts, good or bad.

In all cases good to always take on the safe bet and avoid association with people of wrong view..
stevie
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Re: Are There Philosophies Which Are Dangerous and What Has Made the Ideas Toxic?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 4:27 am
stevie wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 1:07 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2022, 12:54 am I am not asking about ideas which you dislike, although beliefs and philosophies are viewed subjectively as well as in a more analytical way. The specific focus which I am considering is about the consequences of applying philosophy to life. It is partly linked to the way in which ideas may become ideologies. It is also about the moral responsibilities connected to knowledge.

The following quote by Max Stirner, a philosopher of egoism is worth thinking about:
'Do I write out of love to men. No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from the seed of thought_ I would nevertheless scatter it.'
Stirner' s viewpoint is stark in the way that it does not involve any concern on the ripple effects of ideas.'

It can be asked about how Nietzsche's ideas were used to support Nazism. It is unlikely that he meant his philosophy to be interpreted in such a way. There is a difference between the teachings of Jesus and the practices of the Christianity through history. Also, Marx developed his political critique but it can be asked to what extent were the forms of socialism were what he intended or foresaw occurring in response to his writings?

Philosophy is about understanding, but is it about 'truth' at all costs? Are some ideas dangerous intrinsically and, how important is it to think about the potential applications pragmatically and ethically in personal, social and political life?
Philosophy as such is either useless (best case) or toxic (worst case).
The thread isn't aimed at making generalisations about philosophy as a whole, but at particular ideas which have negative consequences. Are there any specific ideas or systems of thought which you identify as being toxic?
Ackowledging the uselessness of philosophy no philosophical idea can be toxic.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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