What is the meaning of All life?

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Paul91
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

Post by Paul91 »

Sy Borg wrote: October 16th, 2022, 4:58 pm Without death, how much meaning would life have?
From an ending can arise a new beginning. We experience this daily.

I can't see how life would have any meaning if an individual's experience came to an ultimate conclusion. Who is trying to survive and why?

Do we wish to have a rich life experience, because we "may as well"? Yes, there may be an end to your identity and place in this world, but for your consciousness to be cut off?
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Paul91 wrote: October 16th, 2022, 7:05 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 16th, 2022, 4:58 pm Without death, how much meaning would life have?
From an ending can arise a new beginning. We experience this daily.

I can't see how life would have any meaning if an individual's experience came to an ultimate conclusion. Who is trying to survive and why?

Do we wish to have a rich life experience, because we "may as well"? Yes, there may be an end to your identity and place in this world, but for your consciousness to be cut off?
My consciousness shuts off every night, as does yours and everyone else's.

I think our identities are only important on a local level, to us and those with whom we have bonded. When I am gone, there will be others to think the thoughts I would have thought, and some people will do the things I would have done. So we are always present in that sense, being a representative of enduring attributes within a larger whole, like sentient cells.
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

Post by Mercury »

DNA replicates by dividing down the middle and attracting chemicals from its environment to rebuild the corresponding half. This is the fundamental nature of the relation between the organism and reality. One can consider it a truth relation; in that the organism must be true to reality to survive. This plays out on every level of evolution - the physiological, the behavioural - and in us, the intellectual. Our purpose, following from our nature is to know what's true of reality - and act accordingly. We are failing in this purpose, and will likely soon be rendered extinct as a consequence.

It's strange though; because we are far from a stupid species. It's almost as if we are too smart for our own good; too capable of lying to ourselves and eachother for truth to ever emerge as offering maximal utility. A slower species would likely cling to what little truth they are able to discern like a life raft; but we humans - oh, we have such a facility for discerning truth, we can look beyond to a self serving lie based upon it - and play all this out in a quadratic equation of power relations, deceiving A to have B effect on C's conduct with regard to D - and so on and on. We are smart enough to be wicked - but still too dumb to survive! If we were really smart; we wouldn't believe our own lies!

If we were really, really smart the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action, and the validity of outcome within a causal reality - would be obvious, and would discern against the lies for which we have such facility. But it seems, while smart enough to be capable of lying, we are also gullible enough to believe lies that flatter us or confirm our prejudices. We fail to comprehend the relation between truth, behaviour and outcome, and so do not employ the utility of truth as a filter that would naturally bring us back to accord with reality were we deceived. Instead, we believe the lie; filter apparent facts to confirm the lie, and resist truth in protection of our ego! We are a very strange organism - but not for long!
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Mercury wrote: October 16th, 2022, 10:59 pm If we were really, really smart the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action, and the validity of outcome within a causal reality - would be obvious, and would discern against the lies for which we have such facility. But it seems, while smart enough to be capable of lying, we are also gullible enough to believe lies that flatter us or confirm our prejudices. We fail to comprehend the relation between truth, behaviour and outcome, and so do not employ the utility of truth as a filter that would naturally bring us back to accord with reality were we deceived. Instead, we believe the lie; filter apparent facts to confirm the lie, and resist truth in protection of our ego! We are a very strange organism - but not for long!
Hi Mercury,

Do you think our "sense of self" or ego is what turns our attention inward towards selfish reaction, as opposed to an outward-looking altruistic cooperation in an ego-less state?
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: October 16th, 2022, 10:59 pm If we were really, really smart the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action, and the validity of outcome within a causal reality - would be obvious, and would discern against the lies for which we have such facility. But it seems, while smart enough to be capable of lying, we are also gullible enough to believe lies that flatter us or confirm our prejudices. We fail to comprehend the relation between truth, behaviour and outcome, and so do not employ the utility of truth as a filter that would naturally bring us back to accord with reality were we deceived. Instead, we believe the lie; filter apparent facts to confirm the lie, and resist truth in protection of our ego! We are a very strange organism - but not for long!
Paul91 wrote: October 16th, 2022, 11:12 pmHi Mercury,

Do you think our "sense of self" or ego is what turns our attention inward towards selfish reaction, as opposed to an outward-looking altruistic cooperation in an ego-less state?
Good question; and I can only point to the dynamics of the individual within the hunter gatherer tribe - where there is often a direct conflict of interest between the self and the group - for example, the danger of injury to the self defending the tribe from attack, sharing food, mutual grooming and so on.

The tribe tends to punish defectors and free riders - who act in their self interest to the exclusion of the interests of the tribe. One could argue that this is the origin of virtue; and evolution ingrained into the individual organism a social sense of moral obligation - wherein, a moral sensibility is an advantage to the individual within the tribe, and an advantage to the tribe composed of such moral individuals.

All the more surprising then that truth should not emerge more strongly as a moral obligation. Perhaps it can be related to what Nietzsche - in my view, identified but misunderstood - the transvaluation of values. He believed that man in a state of nature was a selfish and violent brute; but I think that's untrue. Certainly, man has always been capable of selfishness and violence, but it's unlikely his 'ubermensch' would have survived to raise offspring generation after generation.

Consequently, the transvaluation of values was not the weak fooling the strong; but rather hunter gather tribes joining together to form multi-tribal societies, and in need of a common authority for explicit moral codes of conduct in which belief has been required. God; an objective authority for moral law, but at the same time - the source of our socially mandated gullibility!

All that said, I'm not sure I answered your question. More directly, yes - that's accurate, but also the natural consequence of individual and group facets of identity.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Mercury wrote: October 16th, 2022, 11:59 pm The tribe tends to punish defectors and free riders - who act in their self interest to the exclusion of the interests of the tribe. One could argue that this is the origin of virtue; and evolution ingrained into the individual organism a social sense of moral obligation - wherein, a moral sensibility is an advantage to the individual within the tribe, and an advantage to the tribe composed of such moral individuals.

...

All that said, I'm not sure I answered your question. More directly, yes - that's accurate, but also the natural consequence of individual and group facets of identity.
From your understanding, yes, you answered my question. Thank you.

Sy Borg referred me to Robert Axelrod's 1980 computer tournament involving the iterated prisoner's dilemma game. Here's a slideshow summary: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1429470

The best strategy is to start with cooperation and respond in kind to your "opponent's" last move - "tit for tat". It fits with your understanding, I believe.
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Mercury wrote: October 16th, 2022, 11:59 pm The tribe tends to punish defectors and free riders - who act in their self interest to the exclusion of the interests of the tribe. One could argue that this is the origin of virtue; and evolution ingrained into the individual organism a social sense of moral obligation - wherein, a moral sensibility is an advantage to the individual within the tribe, and an advantage to the tribe composed of such moral individuals.

...

All that said, I'm not sure I answered your question. More directly, yes - that's accurate, but also the natural consequence of individual and group facets of identity.
Paul91 wrote: October 17th, 2022, 12:23 am From your understanding, yes, you answered my question. Thank you.

Sy Borg referred me to Robert Axelrod's 1980 computer tournament involving the iterated prisoner's dilemma game. Here's a slideshow summary: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1429470

The best strategy is to start with cooperation and respond in kind to your "opponent's" last move - "tit for tat". It fits with your understanding, I believe.
Game theory is interesting, but real life is so much more complex. In evolution, defectors may be excluded from the tribe - particularly if they are young males who may grow up to challenge the alpha male's monopoly on sexual opportunity and the principle share of food resources. This is unlike prisoner's dilemma, and also another key difference between a state of nature and civilisation.

Insofar as chimpanzees troops are an adequate socio-biological analogy, it may be assumed hunter gatherer tribes were fission societies - societies that would eject young pretenders to maintain homeostasis; whereas the multi-tribal social organisation of civilisation is a fusion society. In game theory - there's no getting ejected from the game; whereas in real life, even in a fusion society there are power relations, such that the opponent may have to take a long series of tats before he ventures a tit. Even in a fusion society social exclusion is still the practised; imprisonment for example, but more simply, refusal to acknowledge a truth that contradicts the socially accepted lie. i.e. magma energy. The opponent ignores your move.

The ultimate consequence of this is that it's very difficult to challenge the socially accepted lie; for the lie is advanced from a position of power and accepted because of the potential or actual consequences for refusing to accept the lie. The question then becomes; not tit for tat - but tit for tat, tat, tat, tat, and you have to ask yourself if it's worth it.

With regard to magma energy; it's my view that there is nothing to lose - as we are certainly doomed if we do not act, and there's everything to gain from acting. But still there's resistance from the right who deny climate change for the sake of fossil fuel profits; and from the left who use sustainability as a weapon to advance an anti-capitalist political agenda. People lie.

I suppose what I'm saying is, prisoner's dilemma is in the mix - but there's no such simple trick to it. Defection disguises itself as cooperation; often so badly that you know it's defection, but are forced to respond - tit for tat, as if it were cooperation - because ultimately, power devolves to the ability to do violence. That so, what appears to be defection can actually be the ultimate in cooperation. People just don't understand the relation between the validity of the knowledge bases of action and outcome within a causal reality, but rest assured, if you're lying, you're dying!
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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I think it could have significant meaning, but that meaning would be quite different. As it is, life being temporary and ephemeral means that our view of it is unavoidably shaped by that non-permanence, as you observe (I think). 👍
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Sy Borg wrote: October 16th, 2022, 4:58 pm Without death, how much meaning would life have?
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 17th, 2022, 7:43 am I think it could have significant meaning, but that meaning would be quite different. As it is, life being temporary and ephemeral means that our view of it is unavoidably shaped by that non-permanence, as you observe (I think). 👍
Apologies. I didn't realise there were so many posts following Sy Borg's comment. Now you can see who I was replying to.
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Nietzsche and perspectivism say there are infinite "meanings of life", as many as there are lifeforms. Moreover, your desire to ascribe your meaning to others as also been analyzed by Nietzsche already. I'll leave such quotes as "truth is will to power" and "I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity."
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: October 17th, 2022, 7:46 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 16th, 2022, 4:58 pm Without death, how much meaning would life have?
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 17th, 2022, 7:43 am I think it could have significant meaning, but that meaning would be quite different. As it is, life being temporary and ephemeral means that our view of it is unavoidably shaped by that non-permanence, as you observe (I think). 👍
Apologies. I didn't realise there were so many posts following Sy Borg's comment. Now you can see who I was replying to.
Ah, that helps. My dog has just died and I am operating at a low level (euphemism).

Death both creates and negates meaning. Her final eversion from stem cell to ashes will probably be done today.

All existence (and probably the universe itself) is a process of eversion - parts of reality turning themselves inside out. Everything starts as a speck that, over time, attracts material from the outside. It grows and systematises, as it continues to draw more material from its environment than it loses. Over time, that dynamic stabilises and reverses, as the entity erodes and desystematises. In time it will dissipate, with its insides becoming the outside again.

I cannot imagine meaning without that dynamic. Imagine if everyone was immortal. What would they do?
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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kaleido wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:04 pm Nietzsche and perspectivism say there are infinite "meanings of life", as many as there are lifeforms. Moreover, your desire to ascribe your meaning to others as also been analyzed by Nietzsche already. I'll leave such quotes as "truth is will to power" and "I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity."
Do you mean me? 'My' desire to ascribe 'my' meaning?

I call it philosophy; and for me it's a process of taking in things from the world, seeing how they work and explaining it. The meaning is inherent to the thing; and insofar I'm doing my job correctly - nothing of me is imparted.

The Church's trial of Galileo was a mistake; it did result in an overemphasis on Cartesian subjectivity in Western philosophy, and Nietzsche's nihilism was the consequence.

In fact, human beings are moral creatures - morality is a sense ingrained into us by evolution in a tribal context, and religion is an expression of that innate moral sense. Nietzsche's individualistic ubermensch never existed; and truth is not truth because if it isn't I'll kick your teeth in. Because no matter the will or the power, truth is a cause and effect relation to reality, and reality will not be brooked.

This is simply descriptive.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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Mercury wrote: October 17th, 2022, 6:17 pm
kaleido wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:04 pm Nietzsche and perspectivism say there are infinite "meanings of life", as many as there are lifeforms. Moreover, your desire to ascribe your meaning to others has also been analyzed by Nietzsche already. I'll leave such quotes as "truth is will to power" and "I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity."
Do you mean me? 'My' desire to ascribe 'my' meaning?

I call it philosophy; and for me it's a process of taking in things from the world, seeing how they work and explaining it. The meaning is inherent to the thing; and insofar I'm doing my job correctly - nothing of me is imparted.

The Church's trial of Galileo was a mistake; it did result in an overemphasis on Cartesian subjectivity in Western philosophy, and Nietzsche's nihilism was the consequence.

In fact, human beings are moral creatures - morality is a sense ingrained into us by evolution in a tribal context, and religion is an expression of that innate moral sense. Nietzsche's individualistic ubermensch never existed; and truth is not truth because if it isn't I'll kick your teeth in. Because no matter the will or the power, truth is a cause and effect relation to reality, and reality will not be brooked.

This is simply descriptive.
Interpretation is subjective. Objectivity is an illusion. All lifeforms "give meaning" the the world. Some meanings are more objective than others. For example, 2+2=4 is true to every healthy human being. But some lifeforms may disagree that 2+2=4, and we healthy human beings promptly put some of these lifeforms in special schools. Because our truth is more powerful--and if you don't agree 2+2=4 you must be, to us, either insane or mentally challenged.

My point is that there is not ONE meaning to life. There are infinite meanings of life, because there are infinite lifeforms, each with their own interpretation of the world and consequently their own meaning of life.
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: October 17th, 2022, 6:17 pm
kaleido wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:04 pm Nietzsche and perspectivism say there are infinite "meanings of life", as many as there are lifeforms. Moreover, your desire to ascribe your meaning to others has also been analyzed by Nietzsche already. I'll leave such quotes as "truth is will to power" and "I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity."
Do you mean me? 'My' desire to ascribe 'my' meaning?

I call it philosophy; and for me it's a process of taking in things from the world, seeing how they work and explaining it. The meaning is inherent to the thing; and insofar I'm doing my job correctly - nothing of me is imparted.

The Church's trial of Galileo was a mistake; it did result in an overemphasis on Cartesian subjectivity in Western philosophy, and Nietzsche's nihilism was the consequence.

In fact, human beings are moral creatures - morality is a sense ingrained into us by evolution in a tribal context, and religion is an expression of that innate moral sense. Nietzsche's individualistic ubermensch never existed; and truth is not truth because if it isn't I'll kick your teeth in. Because no matter the will or the power, truth is a cause and effect relation to reality, and reality will not be brooked.

This is simply descriptive.
kaleido wrote: October 17th, 2022, 9:44 pmInterpretation is subjective. Objectivity is an illusion. All lifeforms "give meaning" the the world. Some meanings are more objective than others. For example, 2+2=4 is true to every healthy human being. But some lifeforms may disagree that 2+2=4, and we healthy human beings promptly put some of these lifeforms in special schools. Because our truth is more powerful--and if you don't agree 2+2=4 you must be, to us, either insane or mentally challenged.

My point is that there is not ONE meaning to life. There are infinite meanings of life, because there are infinite lifeforms, each with their own interpretation of the world and consequently their own meaning of life.
How is it, do you suppose that a bird builds a nest before it lays eggs? Are birds consciously aware that it's almost egg laying time, and plan ahead accordingly? No, they do not. They act instinctively. Their purpose is ingrained into them by the 'function or die' algorithm of evolution. Birds build nests before they lay eggs because all the birds that didn't do so are extinct.

There is no subjective interpretation informing the purpose of their existence. Such folly is reserved almost exclusively to homo sapiens. Some higher lifeforms exhibit degrees of subjective self awareness - but the cognitive abilities of even the least gifted human being are qualitatively distinct from these - a world away, and of a different order of magnitude.

To suggest equality of value between human and animal cognition in the interpretation of meaning is a conceit that follows from a false sensibility fostered by an over-emphasis on subjectivism in western philosophy. It's the same sensibility that feeds into critical theory, post modernism, neo marxism, and underlies "right-on" authoritarianism from limits to growth through to political correctness.

Objectivity is not an illusion. Objective reality exists, and we are able to establish valid knowledge of it. We can tell this because technology works - and works better the closer it embodies the scientific laws and principles upon which it is based. Those laws and principles must be valid knowledge of reality because technology based on those principles functions within a causal reality!
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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Re: What is the meaning of All life?

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There are no laws of nature. Nietzsche already explained this somewhere in his BGE. And even my quote above explains it. Just because a force appears to be an immutable law to you, because you've observed it for millennia, it does not mean that tomorrow it won't change. There is no certainty, there is only calculated guesses.

Animals function by instincts which were developed over millions of years by trial and error, via a process we call evolution.

Nietzsche: "All that is good is instinctive—and hence easy, necessary, free."

You should read more Nietzsche. He solved practically all the problems. He pretty much completed philosophy.
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