Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

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JDBowden
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Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by JDBowden »

I remember the first time we had exposure to the subject, it was an elective in high school. I believe, if my memory does not fail me, starting in the 10th or 11th grade. I also remember that they struggled to keep the program open as no one was signing up for it.

Furthermore, I went decades without philosophy, and have (fairly) recently dove into the subject.

So, should it be taught as part of the curriculum, or kept as an elective? I know underwater basket weaving classes must be kept on the curriculum and cannot be removed ::cough:: politically motivated grooming.
ernestm
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by ernestm »

Well, I thought so, and I asked about it in 2015. I got a hell of alot of complaints from philosophy teachers. They said it was impossible to teach people how to think if they don't want to. I was very upset about that, but since Trump won the Presidency ive seen far too much evidence they were right, sadly.
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Ecurb »

Perhaps kids should learn how to read, write and perform basic arithmetic before diving into Philosophy.

Also, isn't studying philosophy in grade school a recipe for teachers (untrained in the discipline) to promote their own brand of propaganda?
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JDBowden wrote: November 5th, 2022, 7:16 am So, should [philosophy] be taught as part of the curriculum, or kept as an elective?
My view is that serious, considered, thought — which is what philosophy is — should be taught at all levels of education, along with other subjects. Why would/should we not?
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Ecurb wrote: November 5th, 2022, 10:14 am Also, isn't studying philosophy in grade school a recipe for teachers (untrained in the discipline) to promote their own brand of propaganda?
This is a post-truth response. Distrust of experts, and the right not only to one's opinions, but for one's opinions to be right (correct) too.

Will we close our schools because paedophiles, who are drawn to any job that allows access to children, are likely to try to become teachers? No, we simply try to ensure that our teachers aren't paedophiles, and we trust the rest of them to educate our children.

At some point, trust in others becomes necessary and essential. Philosophy teachers would teach philosophy, just as maths teachers teach maths without brainwashing their pupils into a sinister affinity with algebra.
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ernestm
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by ernestm »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 5th, 2022, 11:13 am
Ecurb wrote: November 5th, 2022, 10:14 am Also, isn't studying philosophy in grade school a recipe for teachers (untrained in the discipline) to promote their own brand of propaganda?
This is a post-truth response. Distrust of experts, and the right not only to one's opinions, but for one's opinions to be right (correct) too.

Will we close our schools because paedophiles, who are drawn to any job that allows access to children, are likely to try to become teachers? No, we simply try to ensure that our teachers aren't paedophiles, and we trust the rest of them to educate our children.

At some point, trust in others becomes necessary and essential. Philosophy teachers would teach philosophy, just as maths teachers teach maths without brainwashing their pupils into a sinister affinity with algebra.
Well that's what what I thought at first, and I argued with philosophy teachers about it for several years, but the fact is, Trump demonstrates empirically that people are incapable of learning how to think if they don't want to. So it might be advocated as a post-truth necessary fact, which is definitely wrong, but as a justified belief, I'd have to say they are right.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by JackDaydream »

I would have liked philosophy to be on the school curriculum, but it wasn't, so I ended up only having religious studies as the nearest possibility. An exercise in sixth form was writing a 'spiritual autobiography' and this, alongside delving into all kinds of philosophy was the nearest I experienced. Howeve, I do know a couple of people who did study philosophy at school and they don't appear to have questioned the ideas(Catholic or Muslim) which they were taught as children. I am not saying that one has to rebel necessarily, but that which goes under the topic of 'philosophy' may be as important as whether or not philosophy is part of the curriculum as an official school subject, or even as the related field of critical thinking, Critical thinking may offer the scope and tools for analysing concepts.
Ecurb
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 5th, 2022, 11:13 am
This is a post-truth response. Distrust of experts, and the right not only to one's opinions, but for one's opinions to be right (correct) too.

Will we close our schools because paedophiles, who are drawn to any job that allows access to children, are likely to try to become teachers? No, we simply try to ensure that our teachers aren't paedophiles, and we trust the rest of them to educate our children.

At some point, trust in others becomes necessary and essential. Philosophy teachers would teach philosophy, just as maths teachers teach maths without brainwashing their pupils into a sinister affinity with algebra.
Here in the U.S., grade school teachers have degrees in education. Most of them have never taken a Philosophy course in their life. So my distrust is not for experts, but of ignorance. (Grade school in the U.S. is grades 1-6, students are 6-11 years old.)

We have enough problems teaching basic literacy, arithmetic, and history. Do you really think rankly amateur philosophers should teach 6 year olds? Wouldn't most of the purported philosophy classes in the Bible Belt end up being Christian? Can ethics be divorced from religion (for many people), and if not is the separation of Church and State an issue?

Of course it's reasonable to teach the basics of logic and critical thinking. Beyond that, we're asking too much of both teachers and young students.
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by LuckyR »

Aspects of philosophy (logic) should be taught indirectly already. Philosophy courses should be offered if there is a teacher to teach it and students interested in taking it.
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Ecurb wrote: November 5th, 2022, 8:01 pm We have enough problems teaching basic literacy, arithmetic, and history.
There are few teachers with any philosophical education themselves, just as ignorance often exists also in — for example — science, maths and technology. I have even encountered some who express pride that they can't wire an electrical plug. Politically, and culturally too, this may be down to the fact that we don't value teachers, as shown by the relatively poor salaries they receive compared with many other occupations. But now I'm diversifying too much from the topic.

I have encountered very few people who are philosophically educated. These days, education is more and more centred on obtaining profitable employment. I think this is a shame. All education benefits all of us. It percolates throughout our societies. And perhaps philosophy — serious, considered, thought — should be one of the core subjects? I think it should.
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JDBowden
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by JDBowden »

Maybe I worded this incorrectly... By grade school I mean, high school... And perhaps not to dive head first into the subject but rather just simply knowing who some of the players were and what their personal viewpoint was. We all knew who Plato was, but knew nothing about the guy

Has anyone seen the show (it was on Netflix a couple yrs ago) Merlí? It was a Catalan/Spanish series about a philosophy teacher. Whereas some of the storyline was borderline weird, the basis of it was pretty good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merl%C3%AD_(TV_series)
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

I would want to see the curriculum before exposing any child to philosophy. It seems to me that academic philosophy feels it necessary to catalogue every bad idea along with every good one, without any guidance as to how to discern one from the other. The Hard Determinist, for example, would just as soon rob every child of their free will and undermine responsibility, by spreading the delusion that reliable cause and effect is some kind of prison that one must escape, but cannot. It's a forking horror story. And it is shameful to entrap children in that silly paradox with no logical ladder to climb out.
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 6th, 2022, 8:41 pm I would want to see the curriculum before exposing any child to philosophy. It seems to me that academic philosophy feels it necessary to catalogue every bad idea along with every good one, without any guidance as to how to discern one from the other. The Hard Determinist, for example, would just as soon rob every child of their free will and undermine responsibility, by spreading the delusion that reliable cause and effect is some kind of prison that one must escape, but cannot. It's a forking horror story. And it is shameful to entrap children in that silly paradox with no logical ladder to climb out.
Whether we are teachers, parents, or whatever, we pass our own beliefs on to our children. We would be morally derelict if we did not. For each one of us believes that our own beliefs are right, proper, useful, valuable, etc. Therefore, we are morally obliged to pass on these beliefs to the next generation.

In this overcrowded world, there are about 8,000,000,000 different sets of beliefs. How can we choose between them? We have no access to an independent and Objective Judge, to whose opinion we might agree to defer. So what? Shall we do as you suggest? Or maybe as I suggest? Or perhaps we should ask Bolsonaro, Putin, or Trump? There are opinions of every shade out there. How shall we choose which of them to pass on to our descendants?
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Alias »

Of course the basic principles of moral systems should be taught. And the foundation of ethics. And logic. Don't call it "philosophy" andstart with a bunch of foreign names and their weird schools of thought. Call it: Reason.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: Should philosophy be a mandatory study in grade school?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Alias wrote: November 8th, 2022, 12:16 am Of course the basic principles of moral systems should be taught. And the foundation of ethics. And logic. Don't call it "philosophy" andstart with a bunch of foreign names and their weird schools of thought. Call it: Reason.
Morals and ethics are culturally-defined, but they can still be taught, of course. "Reason"? Yes, that would do; my personal preference is for "serious, considered, thought". 👍
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