Taoism vs. Stoicism

[JDBowden]

I have recently read Tao Te Ching by Laozi (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it) and have noticed similarities between Taoism and Stoicism.

If Taoism uses various disciplines to achieve perfection through self-cultivation, how is this any different from acting in a way to obtain Stoic "Sage" status?

Heraclitus had the concept of "logos." A kind of universal law. Whereas Tao had the natural order of the universe. I find these concepts identical. Stoics in their writings, I find them always referring to the natural order of things.

I am not as familiar with Taoism as I am with Stoicism. Does anyone happen to be better versed in said topics to have more examples of similarities and differences between these two topics?

[ernestm]

I have recently read Tao Te Ching by Laozi (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it) and have noticed similarities between Taoism and Stoicism.

If Taoism uses various disciplines to achieve perfection through self-cultivation, how is this any different from acting in a way to obtain Stoic "Sage" status?

Heraclitus had the concept of "logos." A kind of universal law. Whereas Tao had the natural order of the universe. I find these concepts identical. Stoics in their writings, I find them always referring to the natural order of things.

I am not as familiar with Taoism as I am with Stoicism. Does anyone happen to be better versed in said topics to have more examples of similarities and differences between these two topics?

Well, that's a very good start to understanding modern Chinese thought. It mostly starts about a thousand years ago with Zhu Xi, or however you want to write it in English. He compounded the concept of Taoist Yin and Yang with the Confucianist concepts of Xi and Qi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi

As Confucianism is fairly more sophisticated than Taoism, the result is called neo-Confucianism rather than neo-Taoism.
What will interest you most is STILL the most influential doctrine in China loosely called [YANGMINISM/b], based on a couple of philosophers at the turn of the 16th century. Passages from their writing still appear in current Chinese law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangmingism

As you may know yourself, Stoicism as it is now at least has a great deal to offer on rational ethics, on which there is a very large forum on Facebook. Smaller ones come and go:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/645867029123044

[Pattern-chaser]

I have recently read Tao Te Ching by Laozi (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it) and have noticed similarities between Taoism and Stoicism.

If Taoism uses various disciplines to achieve perfection through self-cultivation, how is this any different from acting in a way to obtain Stoic "Sage" status?

Heraclitus had the concept of "logos." A kind of universal law. Whereas Tao had the natural order of the universe. I find these concepts identical. Stoics in their writings, I find them always referring to the natural order of things.

I am not as familiar with Taoism as I am with Stoicism. Does anyone happen to be better versed in said topics to have more examples of similarities and differences between these two topics?

Well, that's a very good start to understanding modern Chinese thought. It mostly starts about a thousand years ago with Zhu Xi, or however you want to write it in English. He compounded the concept of Taoist Yin and Yang with the Confucianist concepts of Xi and Qi. As Confucianism is fairly more sophisticated than Taoism...

One thing that has always impressed me about Chinese philosophy — particularly the religion-like philosophies of Taoism, (Zen) Buddhism, and Confucianism — is that they tend to be inclusive, unlike the exclusive perspectives offered by (for example) the Western Abrahamic religions. E.g., a committed Taoist will respect, read, and even quote from, the texts and ideas of other (Chinese) philosophies. Mutual respect, not mutual antagonism. This attitude earns my personal admiration, and respect too.

[ernestm]

I have recently read Tao Te Ching by Laozi (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it) and have noticed similarities between Taoism and Stoicism.

If Taoism uses various disciplines to achieve perfection through self-cultivation, how is this any different from acting in a way to obtain Stoic "Sage" status?

Heraclitus had the concept of "logos." A kind of universal law. Whereas Tao had the natural order of the universe. I find these concepts identical. Stoics in their writings, I find them always referring to the natural order of things.

I am not as familiar with Taoism as I am with Stoicism. Does anyone happen to be better versed in said topics to have more examples of similarities and differences between these two topics?

Well, that's a very good start to understanding modern Chinese thought. It mostly starts about a thousand years ago with Zhu Xi, or however you want to write it in English. He compounded the concept of Taoist Yin and Yang with the Confucianist concepts of Xi and Qi. As Confucianism is fairly more sophisticated than Taoism...

One thing that has always impressed me about Chinese philosophy — particularly the religion-like philosophies of Taoism, (Zen) Buddhism, and Confucianism — is that they tend to be inclusive, unlike the exclusive perspectives offered by (for example) the Western Abrahamic religions. E.g., a committed Taoist will respect, read, and even quote from, the texts and ideas of other (Chinese) philosophies. Mutual respect, not mutual antagonism. This attitude earns my personal admiration, and respect too.

Well that's true. It makes it quite a bit of work to get to modern views, but I think the four philosophers i cited above are the most important ones in the last 2000 years.

[JDBowden]

I have recently read Tao Te Ching by Laozi (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it) and have noticed similarities between Taoism and Stoicism.

If Taoism uses various disciplines to achieve perfection through self-cultivation, how is this any different from acting in a way to obtain Stoic "Sage" status?

Heraclitus had the concept of "logos." A kind of universal law. Whereas Tao had the natural order of the universe. I find these concepts identical. Stoics in their writings, I find them always referring to the natural order of things.

I am not as familiar with Taoism as I am with Stoicism. Does anyone happen to be better versed in said topics to have more examples of similarities and differences between these two topics?

Well, that's a very good start to understanding modern Chinese thought. It mostly starts about a thousand years ago with Zhu Xi, or however you want to write it in English. He compounded the concept of Taoist Yin and Yang with the Confucianist concepts of Xi and Qi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi

As Confucianism is fairly more sophisticated than Taoism, the result is called neo-Confucianism rather than neo-Taoism.
What will interest you most is STILL the most influential doctrine in China loosely called [YANGMINISM/b], based on a couple of philosophers at the turn of the 16th century. Passages from their writing still appear in current Chinese law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangmingism

As you may know yourself, Stoicism as it is now at least has a great deal to offer on rational ethics, on which there is a very large forum on Facebook. Smaller ones come and go:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/645867029123044

Some good links. I do not have Facebook and cannot join; although, it looks like a good spot.

Is there a reason where Confucianism is more sophisticated than Taoism?

[ernestm]

I have recently read Tao Te Ching by Laozi (if you have not read it, I highly recommend it) and have noticed similarities between Taoism and Stoicism.

If Taoism uses various disciplines to achieve perfection through self-cultivation, how is this any different from acting in a way to obtain Stoic "Sage" status?

Heraclitus had the concept of "logos." A kind of universal law. Whereas Tao had the natural order of the universe. I find these concepts identical. Stoics in their writings, I find them always referring to the natural order of things.

I am not as familiar with Taoism as I am with Stoicism. Does anyone happen to be better versed in said topics to have more examples of similarities and differences between these two topics?

Well, that's a very good start to understanding modern Chinese thought. It mostly starts about a thousand years ago with Zhu Xi, or however you want to write it in English. He compounded the concept of Taoist Yin and Yang with the Confucianist concepts of Xi and Qi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Xi

As Confucianism is fairly more sophisticated than Taoism, the result is called neo-Confucianism rather than neo-Taoism.
What will interest you most is STILL the most influential doctrine in China loosely called [YANGMINISM/b], based on a couple of philosophers at the turn of the 16th century. Passages from their writing still appear in current Chinese law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangmingism

As you may know yourself, Stoicism as it is now at least has a great deal to offer on rational ethics, on which there is a very large forum on Facebook. Smaller ones come and go:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/645867029123044

Some good links. I do not have Facebook and cannot join; although, it looks like a good spot.

Is there a reason where Confucianism is more sophisticated than Taoism?

Well, on metaphysics really that is more of a personal opinion, but his ethics are much more detailed and also political, compared to the broad-brush approach of more personal ethics in Taoism. ONe should bear in mind that Taoism became famous during the era of the hundred kingdoms when national boundaries changed so much and so frequently, parents and sons found themselves facing each other in battle for multiple different rulers in their own lives, which led to alot of nihilism and despair, to which Taoism provided comfort. On the other hand, while Confucius had to contend with the same problem, he ran his own school that practiced pacifism, so he was not so much concerned with political conflict as maintaining discipline within political harmony. Not so easy, he had alot of arguments about it which are recorded in the analects at length.

Id refer to the five constants and four virtues, this has the lists and some initial description of them,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucian ... and_ethics

[LovelyLau]

Stoicism is utter rubbish
That is what I have to feel guilty for not being a stoic in trauma and when sick...every single day or my life will be ruined.
I hate it how could anyone make you feel like you should just suck it up and be strong in a really hard situation when sick.
It is too painful and it hurts to try to be and then you have to blame yourself when not.
It breaks me

[Pattern-chaser]

Stoicism is utter rubbish
That is what I have to feel guilty for not being a stoic in trauma and when sick...every single day or my life will be ruined.
I hate it how could anyone make you feel like you should just suck it up and be strong in a really hard situation when sick.
It is too painful and it hurts to try to be and then you have to blame yourself when not.
It breaks me

I think you might be confused as to what stoicism teaches, and why.

[LovelyLau]

Stoicism is utter rubbish
That is what I have to feel guilty for not being a stoic in trauma and when sick...every single day or my life will be ruined.
I hate it how could anyone make you feel like you should just suck it up and be strong in a really hard situation when sick.
It is too painful and it hurts to try to be and then you have to blame yourself when not.
It breaks me

I think you might be confused as to what stoicism teaches, and why.

I am not confused by it. Some philosophy of it is more gentle and is just something that speaks to a person more like being grateful for what you have.
It has many different philosophies and angles but some are so hard, others make a bit more practical sense.
Also...
The harsh ones are way too harsh if you know what I mean and who could follow them?
Some are true in a painful sense but still difficult like keep your secrets to yourself then no-one can use them against you.
Anyway it has many different beliefs and values.
But I have not studied the whole thing but I have watched a few different YouTube videos but I know from them some of the philosophy it teaches.

[Pattern-chaser]

Stoicism is utter rubbish
That is what I have to feel guilty for not being a stoic in trauma and when sick...every single day or my life will be ruined.
I hate it how could anyone make you feel like you should just suck it up and be strong in a really hard situation when sick.
It is too painful and it hurts to try to be and then you have to blame yourself when not.
It breaks me

I think you might be confused as to what stoicism teaches, and why.

I am not confused by it. Some philosophy of it is more gentle and is just something that speaks to a person more like being grateful for what you have.
It has many different philosophies and angles but some are so hard, others make a bit more practical sense.
Also...
The harsh ones are way too harsh if you know what I mean and who could follow them?
Some are true in a painful sense but still difficult like keep your secrets to yourself then no-one can use them against you.
Anyway it has many different beliefs and values.
But I have not studied the whole thing but I have watched a few different YouTube videos but I know from them some of the philosophy it teaches.

I am far from an expert on Stoicism. But I do know that the everyday impression of it, as a philosophy of indifference to upset and trauma, displaying no reaction to bad or hurtful things, is wildly inaccurate. It does counsel us not to get upset about things that are out of our control, but simply to accept them. Perhaps this is what you're getting at?