Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
User avatar
derrickfarnell
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: November 17th, 2022, 7:32 am

Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by derrickfarnell »

Hi

Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?

---

Compare these two claims:

1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.

2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.

If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.

But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.

2 can be slightly reworded as:

The claim It’s raining is a true claim.

And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.

Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.

2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
---
ernestm
Posts: 433
Joined: March 5th, 2018, 4:27 am

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by ernestm »

derrickfarnell wrote: November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi

Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?

---

Compare these two claims:

1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.

2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.

If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.

But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.

2 can be slightly reworded as:

The claim It’s raining is a true claim.

And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.

Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.

2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
---
Your first statement is simple. On observations of the material world, the method in formal logic is empirical truth evaluation: one looks at the material world to determine truth value.

The second simply states the above incompletely.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

derrickfarnell wrote: November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi

Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?

---

Compare these two claims:

1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.
Yes, statement 1 says "It is raining", which could be true or false. The second says that statement 1 is true. So the two are different/distinct, but closely related.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
GrayArea
Posts: 374
Joined: March 16th, 2021, 12:17 am

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by GrayArea »

Yes there may be, but that distinction can only be 100% made through saying either "X" or "X is true". Using any other words is not enough.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
User avatar
derrickfarnell
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: November 17th, 2022, 7:32 am

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by derrickfarnell »

Thanks for these comments! :)
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by LuckyR »

derrickfarnell wrote: November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi

Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?

---

Compare these two claims:

1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.

2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.

If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.

But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.

2 can be slightly reworded as:

The claim It’s raining is a true claim.

And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.

Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.

2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
---
I look at your question differently. Namely that X is implied to be truthful, regardless of whose observation is being referred to, whether the observer is intending to deceive, whether it is actually true or even if the question actually has a true answer. OTOH, "X is true" implies a second review of X which implies greater accuracy, though that is definitely not required. This is due to the difference (if any) between the implied truthfulness in X and the explicitly stated "true" in X is true.

Long story short, 1 and 2 technically mean the same thing (though are not identical), however commonly they are received as different, that is as a comment and a review of a comment.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by Sy Borg »

The first, 'It's raining' could be a subjective or objective impression.

The second, 'It's raining is true', is a claim of objective truth.

For example, it's sprinkling so lightly that those living in monsoonal zones would not consider it to be "raining", as such. Yet, one might record the tiny drops with an instrument to assert that, yes, it is actually raining, even if only barely.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by Sculptor1 »

derrickfarnell wrote: November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi

Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?

---

Compare these two claims:

1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.

2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.

If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.

But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.

2 can be slightly reworded as:

The claim It’s raining is a true claim.

And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.

Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.

2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
---
My claim is that 2 is true if 1 is true.

My next claim is that my claim (above) is true regardless of the truth of 1 or 2.

My next claim is that the above claim is true is also true, ad infinitem.
Dlaw
Posts: 474
Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?

Post by Dlaw »

To me, the question is a lot easier to deal with it we divide the concept of truth into facts in evidence and perceptions.

If I walk outside, my head gets wet, I hear water sprinkling, I see people with umbrellas, the birds and kitty cats are not outside, it just raining. There's no sensible argument that "raining" is anything other than a fact.

On the other hand, if any perception of "raining" contains rational and reasonable doubt OR is not not backed up by sufficient, independent and external evidence, then it's not a fact although it may be true and valid.

I THINK that the duality between perception and fact is the stronger duality here.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021