Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
- derrickfarnell
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Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?
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Compare these two claims:
1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.
2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.
If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.
But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.
2 can be slightly reworded as:
The claim It’s raining is a true claim.
And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.
Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.
2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
Your first statement is simple. On observations of the material world, the method in formal logic is empirical truth evaluation: one looks at the material world to determine truth value.derrickfarnell wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi
Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?
---
Compare these two claims:
1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.
2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.
If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.
But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.
2 can be slightly reworded as:
The claim It’s raining is a true claim.
And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.
Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.
2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
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The second simply states the above incompletely.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
Yes, statement 1 says "It is raining", which could be true or false. The second says that statement 1 is true. So the two are different/distinct, but closely related.derrickfarnell wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi
Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?
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Compare these two claims:
1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.
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- GrayArea
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
- derrickfarnell
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
- LuckyR
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
I look at your question differently. Namely that X is implied to be truthful, regardless of whose observation is being referred to, whether the observer is intending to deceive, whether it is actually true or even if the question actually has a true answer. OTOH, "X is true" implies a second review of X which implies greater accuracy, though that is definitely not required. This is due to the difference (if any) between the implied truthfulness in X and the explicitly stated "true" in X is true.derrickfarnell wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi
Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?
---
Compare these two claims:
1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.
2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.
If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.
But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.
2 can be slightly reworded as:
The claim It’s raining is a true claim.
And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.
Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.
2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
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Long story short, 1 and 2 technically mean the same thing (though are not identical), however commonly they are received as different, that is as a comment and a review of a comment.
- Sy Borg
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
The second, 'It's raining is true', is a claim of objective truth.
For example, it's sprinkling so lightly that those living in monsoonal zones would not consider it to be "raining", as such. Yet, one might record the tiny drops with an instrument to assert that, yes, it is actually raining, even if only barely.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
My claim is that 2 is true if 1 is true.derrickfarnell wrote: ↑November 17th, 2022, 7:38 am Hi
Could anyone give me feedback on the below part of the latest version of a blog post that I'm working on? This part argues that any claim, X, and the claim X is true are distinct claims. Do you find the argument convincing? If not, which steps do you think are problematic, and why?
---
Compare these two claims:
1) It’s raining.
2) The claim It’s raining is true.
2 can seem to be simply a different wording of 1, and therefore to be the same claim. However, 1 and 2 are actually distinct claims that merely imply each other.
If two sentences are just different wordings of the same claim, then, by definition, their content will be the same. And if the content of two sentences is the same, then, by definition, neither sentence will refer to something that the other doesn’t.
But whereas 1 simply refers to the current weather, 2 refers to a claim about the current weather – 1 – and to the concept of truth, and thereby also to the relationship between the referenced claim and reality. Hence 1 and 2 are distinct claims.
2 can be slightly reworded as:
The claim It’s raining is a true claim.
And it should now be more apparent that 1 and 2 are distinct claims that merely imply each other. That is, if it’s raining then the claim It’s raining is a true claim, and vice versa.
Therefore 2 is merely implicitly claiming 1.
2 can seem to be just a different wording of 1 because 1 follows so obviously from 2 that we can fail to notice the very basic logical step separating them.
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My next claim is that my claim (above) is true regardless of the truth of 1 or 2.
My next claim is that the above claim is true is also true, ad infinitem.
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Re: Is there a distinction between any claim, X, and the claim 'X is true'?
If I walk outside, my head gets wet, I hear water sprinkling, I see people with umbrellas, the birds and kitty cats are not outside, it just raining. There's no sensible argument that "raining" is anything other than a fact.
On the other hand, if any perception of "raining" contains rational and reasonable doubt OR is not not backed up by sufficient, independent and external evidence, then it's not a fact although it may be true and valid.
I THINK that the duality between perception and fact is the stronger duality here.
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