Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8265
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 7th, 2023, 9:24 amThere is a very common human perspective that basically says "I am right; you are wrong". Argument by (unfounded) assertion. In one word: intolerance.

If it is me that is right, then I would be correct to assert so. But what if I am wrong? What if it's someone else that is in the right? They seem to be as persuaded of their own correctness as I am...

In my life, I have discovered myself to be wrong on many occasions. I have seen others make the same discovery too, also many times. What are the chances, in this case, or some other, that it's me that is right, and the other fellow that is wrong?

Perhaps the answer is to offer my own ideas — and the reasons why I think they have merit and value — for consideration, and to consider the ideas of others in that same way? Perhaps tolerance is a good starting point? Instead of combative argument, would it be worth trying co-operative discussion?

Please don't misunderstand what I say as a prelude to declaring that 'everyone is right', as some would accuse post-modernists of saying. It is no such thing. We can reach conclusions — valid and worthwhile conclusions — by co-operative discussion. Even when we fail to reach a conclusion, we might have a better understanding of where we disagree, and this may direct our future thinking in positive ways.

In contrast, the conclusion of a combative argument is often nothing more than the exchange of insults. Rarely are agreed conclusions reached.

So will we make a real attempt at learning and understanding, or will we just shout "I am right, and you are wrong, you piece of 💩" at each other?
Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 12:39 pm Well let me offer the argument that a man cannot be a woman - for example, are you willing to tolerate and discuss that opinion?
I am willing to tolerate your opinion, of course. And to discuss it too. But you don't seem to want that:
Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 12:39 pm Because there are people banned from various social media sites, people doxed and threatened, people driven from their jobs for expressing that opinion. Is that tolerance? The so called tolerance of political correctness is all in one direction. You demand I tolerate your identity and opinion, but it's not reciprocated. You demand I tiptoe around for fear of causing offence, but feel absolutely free to offend against my culture, identity, sex, and sexual orientation - because I'm a straight white male, and therefore an oppressor. I'm convinced the idea of gender self identification has gone from undergraduate essay to political policy without any peer review worth a damn because everyone's terrified of being twitter mobbed and ruined. Without freedom of speech there is no tolerance; free expression and the competition of ideas, is tolerance! And so what if people disagree, and insult and offend eachother? The strongest ideas will prevail if they are given a full and robust voice!
You seem not to want to express your opinion, but to complain about the actions of others when presented with opinions similar to your own.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Mercury
Posts: 377
Joined: December 17th, 2013, 6:36 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:59 pm J.K. Rowling was not invited by HBO to the Harry Potter anniversary reunion. Why not?
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 8th, 2023, 8:57 am Profit.

So many people were upset enough by JKR's outpourings that sales of Harry Potter merchandise (etc) fell. To maximise any remaining profits from the Potterverse, JKR was not invited.
So are you saying HBO crunched the numbers, and identified a demographic whose decision on whether or not to continue a boycott of the Harry Potter franchise depended on whether or not J.K. Rowling was invited to the reunion?
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Mercury
Posts: 377
Joined: December 17th, 2013, 6:36 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:59 pm
JackDaydream wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:00 pm
Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 6:43 pm

I raised this issue in passing, as an example of the distortion of social progress by the inability to openly discuss ideas - and suddenly, it's the whole thread. Gender politics has stalled our discussion of social progress! How ironic!!

I'm happy to find, somewhat to my surprise, I'm not alone in finding it concerning - but in the UK, in Scotland, the devolved government want to adopt gender self identification as policy. Who will speak against it, and immediately invite a barrage of abuse, doxing, threats from trans activists of the kind
J.K. Rowling experienced when she voiced her scepticism in 2020?
More recently, Rowling - who lives in Edinburgh I believe, announced she was opening a rape crisis center for biological women only. She was attacked again - and you say the moral outrage is projected onto trans people? Could you provide an example? Because it seems to me that the outrage is being projected by, or on behalf of trans people, onto anyone who questions gender politics dogma.
When I wrote the thread outpost it didn't occur to me that the trans issue would come up but it an interesting example of one of the conflicts in the dilemmas of progress in the twentieth first century. From what I have understood of various things JK Rowling's ideas have been blown out of proportion. I think that there is a lot of projection on both sides, from those who are for or against trans issues. It is not exclusive to one side and both sides can become extremely heated. As far as the projection onto trans people, it is often in the form of overt hostility. I was once working alongside a healthcare professional who was transitioning from male to female and another member of staff stated, 'If any of my family were in hospital I wouldn't want them touched by someone like that'. I also know transgender people who have been bullied and experienced extreme physical violence. But, I do realise that it happens on both sides.

Sometimes, the ideology and the psychological get muddled up. Most transgender people are not activists and often just want to blend in. I know of male to female transsexuals who have wished to transition because they love women so much, and they identify as lesbian. The issue of transgender people in certain single sex spaces is complicated because, depending on how much treatment they have had and how they look will determine whether they look out of place in public toilets, for example, and their confidence because most would not wish to be seen in the 'wrong' place and subjected to ridicule or abuse.

But, in the past gay issues were often focused upon but now it is transgender which is in the spotlight. When I was studying, I did a year module in gender and sexuality. When the uexternal university modulators marked the exam papers, they queried why all the students, especially the makes were arguing from from a feminist perspective and queried whether the tutors were indoctrinated us. That is probably because in most instances so many take feminist perspectives on board, whereas the political issues of transgender are the ones which stand out. It is partly about medical technology although within feminism there has been the controversy over abortion and in some groups, especially Catholicism, there is still a lot of moral outrage towards women who choose to have abortions.
You seem so uncomfortable discussing this, it's like you're turning around and around inside your own skin. Your generally non-committal style has reached new heights of hedging and waffle. And still you will not acknowledge that you feel under any sort of compulsion from the redolent practice of social exclusion of those with 'unacceptable opinions.' J.K. Rowling was not invited by HBO to the Harry Potter anniversary reunion. Why not? You understand perfectly well the dictatorial compulsion to either agree or keep quiet; and it seems to me you're doing both here - finding as much to agree with as you can, and keeping quiet about what you dare not talk about. We were discussing social progress, and I'm saying that kind of compulsion is not good; it distorts social progress by undermining the organic development of civilisation through the open competition of ideas.

Other than that, I've said all I have to say about the misleading, poisoning and butchery of confused children; the open invitation into women's private spaces for perverts self-identifying as women, I've said all I want to about fairness in sports, and rape in women's prisons - that follow from a policy the sole supposed purpose of which is not to cause offence. Epic fail in that regard, you're just too afraid of the monster you've created to admit these things are offensive!

Maybe, somehow, you can steer back to the concept of how we define progress. If you recall I suggested: Chronologically, epistemically and sociologically. The passage of time, the increase of knowledge, and improvements in living standards. You suggested something is lost, but I don't think you were ever definitive as to what. I accept there are very few people who can shoe a horse, or repair a stained glass window these days. Is that what you meant?
JackDaydream wrote: January 8th, 2023, 9:57 amYou accuse me of waffle and if I do, you probably do so too. Some people write one line answers and others write lengthy ones. It is hard to get the right balance for those who like chit chat and those who want academic or intricate discussion. Also, many people regard philosophy itself as waffle.

I do want to move on from the issue of transgender, especially as there are discussions of it in many threads. The one quibble I do have though is your use of the word 'pervert' which I think should be avoided and thrown into the unprogressive philosophy dustbin. It arose in a previous era and is extremely loaded and morally judgemental.

On the philosophy of progress, it is not that I am wishing to disregard the wonderful aspects of our time. I love the alternative music from the 1960s to the present time for inspiration and without it my life would be different entirely. Also, l love being able to read and exchange ideas across the world on my mobile phone. What I am querying is the way people see history of endless progress in a linear fashion. It may more about cycles. Also, there is the question of where it has ended up, as conveyed in the title of a book by James Hillman, 'We have Had a 100 Years of Therapy but the World is Getting Worse.' Many people even look upon the history of psychotherapy as antideluvian in the light of neuroscience, but perhaps it is not that simple.
Is the world getting worse? Odd someone into cycles would say so! I think the world is getting better but people still kinda suck; no more nor less than ever they did. Time has passed, we know more than we did, and living standards have improved; that's progress. Yet we remain a miserable bunch, and are no happier for the hugely improved health, prosperity and leisure we enjoy relative to someone 100 years ago.

I allude to this in my thread 'Do Humans Want to be Doomed?' in which I describe my efforts to bring to public attention a technological approach to the climate and ecological crisis that has gone ignored by left and right alike these past 40 years, despite promising a hugely prosperous and sustainable future. A rational creature, a utility maximiser, or species driven by the pleasure principle would surely leap at it!

Are you able to explain the Buddhist concept of seeking non-existence, perhaps with reference to the Freudian death drive? Are they conceptually similar? Don't worry if not - I'll get around to it, probably, sometime before the end of the world! Progress! But where to? Interesting how often post apocalypse type futures are featured in film, as opposed to prosperous and sustainable futures. People are weird!
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
User avatar
JackDaydream
Posts: 3218
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by JackDaydream »

Mercury wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:50 pm
Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:59 pm
JackDaydream wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:00 pm
Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 6:43 pm

I raised this issue in passing, as an example of the distortion of social progress by the inability to openly discuss ideas - and suddenly, it's the whole thread. Gender politics has stalled our discussion of social progress! How ironic!!

I'm happy to find, somewhat to my surprise, I'm not alone in finding it concerning - but in the UK, in Scotland, the devolved government want to adopt gender self identification as policy. Who will speak against it, and immediately invite a barrage of abuse, doxing, threats from trans activists of the kind
J.K. Rowling experienced when she voiced her scepticism in 2020?
More recently, Rowling - who lives in Edinburgh I believe, announced she was opening a rape crisis center for biological women only. She was attacked again - and you say the moral outrage is projected onto trans people? Could you provide an example? Because it seems to me that the outrage is being projected by, or on behalf of trans people, onto anyone who questions gender politics dogma.
When I wrote the thread outpost it didn't occur to me that the trans issue would come up but it an interesting example of one of the conflicts in the dilemmas of progress in the twentieth first century. From what I have understood of various things JK Rowling's ideas have been blown out of proportion. I think that there is a lot of projection on both sides, from those who are for or against trans issues. It is not exclusive to one side and both sides can become extremely heated. As far as the projection onto trans people, it is often in the form of overt hostility. I was once working alongside a healthcare professional who was transitioning from male to female and another member of staff stated, 'If any of my family were in hospital I wouldn't want them touched by someone like that'. I also know transgender people who have been bullied and experienced extreme physical violence. But, I do realise that it happens on both sides.

Sometimes, the ideology and the psychological get muddled up. Most transgender people are not activists and often just want to blend in. I know of male to female transsexuals who have wished to transition because they love women so much, and they identify as lesbian. The issue of transgender people in certain single sex spaces is complicated because, depending on how much treatment they have had and how they look will determine whether they look out of place in public toilets, for example, and their confidence because most would not wish to be seen in the 'wrong' place and subjected to ridicule or abuse.

But, in the past gay issues were often focused upon but now it is transgender which is in the spotlight. When I was studying, I did a year module in gender and sexuality. When the uexternal university modulators marked the exam papers, they queried why all the students, especially the makes were arguing from from a feminist perspective and queried whether the tutors were indoctrinated us. That is probably because in most instances so many take feminist perspectives on board, whereas the political issues of transgender are the ones which stand out. It is partly about medical technology although within feminism there has been the controversy over abortion and in some groups, especially Catholicism, there is still a lot of moral outrage towards women who choose to have abortions.
You seem so uncomfortable discussing this, it's like you're turning around and around inside your own skin. Your generally non-committal style has reached new heights of hedging and waffle. And still you will not acknowledge that you feel under any sort of compulsion from the redolent practice of social exclusion of those with 'unacceptable opinions.' J.K. Rowling was not invited by HBO to the Harry Potter anniversary reunion. Why not? You understand perfectly well the dictatorial compulsion to either agree or keep quiet; and it seems to me you're doing both here - finding as much to agree with as you can, and keeping quiet about what you dare not talk about. We were discussing social progress, and I'm saying that kind of compulsion is not good; it distorts social progress by undermining the organic development of civilisation through the open competition of ideas.

Other than that, I've said all I have to say about the misleading, poisoning and butchery of confused children; the open invitation into women's private spaces for perverts self-identifying as women, I've said all I want to about fairness in sports, and rape in women's prisons - that follow from a policy the sole supposed purpose of which is not to cause offence. Epic fail in that regard, you're just too afraid of the monster you've created to admit these things are offensive!

Maybe, somehow, you can steer back to the concept of how we define progress. If you recall I suggested: Chronologically, epistemically and sociologically. The passage of time, the increase of knowledge, and improvements in living standards. You suggested something is lost, but I don't think you were ever definitive as to what. I accept there are very few people who can shoe a horse, or repair a stained glass window these days. Is that what you meant?
JackDaydream wrote: January 8th, 2023, 9:57 amYou accuse me of waffle and if I do, you probably do so too. Some people write one line answers and others write lengthy ones. It is hard to get the right balance for those who like chit chat and those who want academic or intricate discussion. Also, many people regard philosophy itself as waffle.

I do want to move on from the issue of transgender, especially as there are discussions of it in many threads. The one quibble I do have though is your use of the word 'pervert' which I think should be avoided and thrown into the unprogressive philosophy dustbin. It arose in a previous era and is extremely loaded and morally judgemental.

On the philosophy of progress, it is not that I am wishing to disregard the wonderful aspects of our time. I love the alternative music from the 1960s to the present time for inspiration and without it my life would be different entirely. Also, l love being able to read and exchange ideas across the world on my mobile phone. What I am querying is the way people see history of endless progress in a linear fashion. It may more about cycles. Also, there is the question of where it has ended up, as conveyed in the title of a book by James Hillman, 'We have Had a 100 Years of Therapy but the World is Getting Worse.' Many people even look upon the history of psychotherapy as antideluvian in the light of neuroscience, but perhaps it is not that simple.
Is the world getting worse? Odd someone into cycles would say so! I think the world is getting better but people still kinda suck; no more nor less than ever they did. Time has passed, we know more than we did, and living standards have improved; that's progress. Yet we remain a miserable bunch, and are no happier for the hugely improved health, prosperity and leisure we enjoy relative to someone 100 years ago.

I allude to this in my thread 'Do Humans Want to be Doomed?' in which I describe my efforts to bring to public attention a technological approach to the climate and ecological crisis that has gone ignored by left and right alike these past 40 years, despite promising a hugely prosperous and sustainable future. A rational creature, a utility maximiser, or species driven by the pleasure principle would surely leap at it!

Are you able to explain the Buddhist concept of seeking non-existence, perhaps with reference to the Freudian death drive? Are they conceptually similar? Don't worry if not - I'll get around to it, probably, sometime before the end of the world! Progress! But where to? Interesting how often post apocalypse type futures are featured in film, as opposed to prosperous and sustainable futures. People are weird!
Freud's philosophy of the ongoing conflict between the life and death instincts, Eros and Thanatos, is important. Even though a lot of people dismiss psychoanalysis as being unscientific the philosophy of the conflict between the life and death instincts is relevant for thinking about how the destructive potential exists in spite of progress.

Also, Jung's idea of the shadow, as the inferior aspects of the human personality, represents an ominous potential, especially on a collective level in spite of sins to overcome evil. In his, 'Answer to Job' which looks at the dark potential which may be unleashed in the form of nuclear warfare. It does seem that the ecological crisis which has become so much more apparent, as well as ongoing war, such as the situation in Ukraine, represents the dark side of human nature and progress.
User avatar
JackDaydream
Posts: 3218
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by JackDaydream »

NiteOwl wrote: January 5th, 2023, 3:59 am It would seem that most people's idea of progress is a product of the culture they live in. The average westerner might have a different idea of progress than someone from China, or Saudi Arabia.

There is the idea that knowledge is the basis of progress, and what separates "1st worlders" from, say, hunter gatherers. More than likely, though, the hunter gatherers probably possessed as much knowledge as "1st worlders". The only difference is such knowledge was more focused on how to survive in their immediate environment. The "1st worlders" knowledge might cover a broader field of topics (although for some it might not), but contain just as much net information as the hunter gatherer, and is probably more focused on how to make money, the imaginary substance 1st worlders need to survive.

There is a danger to the idea of progress in that it can be used to extrapolate temporary trends far beyond the data set of such trends. An example would be those who see global warming as a good thing as it has helped us in the past, therefore it is defined (by them) as "progress" and should be welcomed with open arms, so keep pumping out those greenhouse gasses. Such rigid ideas of progress can turn into dogma and prevent humanity from changing course when danger emerges for fear of "going backwards to caveman".

The only safe concept of progress would probably be open-endedness and flexibility, being able to expand our range of experience while avoiding dystopian traps.
User avatar
JackDaydream
Posts: 3218
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by JackDaydream »

NiteOwl wrote: January 5th, 2023, 3:59 am It would seem that most people's idea of progress is a product of the culture they live in. The average westerner might have a different idea of progress than someone from China, or Saudi Arabia.

There is the idea that knowledge is the basis of progress, and what separates "1st worlders" from, say, hunter gatherers. More than likely, though, the hunter gatherers probably possessed as much knowledge as "1st worlders". The only difference is such knowledge was more focused on how to survive in their immediate environment. The "1st worlders" knowledge might cover a broader field of topics (although for some it might not), but contain just as much net information as the hunter gatherer, and is probably more focused on how to make money, the imaginary substance 1st worlders need to survive.

There is a danger to the idea of progress in that it can be used to extrapolate temporary trends far beyond the data set of such trends. An example would be those who see global warming as a good thing as it has helped us in the past, therefore it is defined (by them) as "progress" and should be welcomed with open arms, so keep pumping out those greenhouse gasses. Such rigid ideas of progress can turn into dogma and prevent humanity from changing course when danger emerges for fear of "going backwards to caveman".

The only safe concept of progress would probably be open-endedness and flexibility, being able to expand our range of experience while avoiding dystopian traps.
Hello, I haven't interacted with you before, so I am pleased to do so. I only just found your post because it probably took a while to upload it and it got hidden on the first page.

Progress is definitely relative from culture to culture. Also, what is seen as progress probably changes so quickly. For example, my mother, who thought her mobile phone was great, was visited by a child who said to her how her phone looked out of date. There has been so much change in the last century that if a time traveller from a hundred years ago entered the present time the world would probably be unrecognisable. If the world continues to change at the same pace it is hard to imagine what it will be like, if many parts have not been devastated by ecological crises. There is the possibility that some may think that global warming has helped before so it will do so once again as a way of complacent acceptance. It's a bit like the way in which the idea of the survival of the fittest may be seen as a justification of the status quo and inequalities. There may be an emphasis on the need to go forward rather than backwards as if there will be endless progressive change and uncritical acceptance of the need for growth and the constant search for the 'new'.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Belindi »

Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 1:24 pm
Belindi wrote: January 7th, 2023, 10:06 am All stereotyping including allocation of biological sex is bad for individuals for whom freedom defines what it is to be human. If you want to grossly mutilate your own body I think you are making a mistake, and to mutilate someone else is evil.
I don't quite understand you here. Biological sex is not allocated. It's just a fact. Babies are born either male or female. In the vast majority of people, biological sex and psychological gender are aligned. There are a few people for whom that's not true - but they are rare. Genuine gender dysphoria does not explain the current trans craze. It's ideological; it's not a disordered relation between biological sex and psychological gender, but a fashion, a fad, a vogue - underpinned by politically correct gender politics. It's particularly damaging to young people; who may, as you say, inflict life-long changes on their bodies. But it's also a danger to women, to have men self-identifying as women, able to invade female only private spaces. It's a very bad policy - one that simply hasn't been thought through, because political correctness is anything but tolerant of the free expression of ideas, people are afraid to criticise.
All categories without exception are human concepts. No domestic or wild animal has any concept of biological sex. Humans are the only animals that think in abstract concepts.
'Male' and 'female' are concepts i.e. frames that are useful in some way. All known societies allocate sex and gender to individuals so that work and abilities can be most usefully allocated . This is why we have kinship rules, and special ceremonies for coming of age, and marriage.

There are physical differences between male and female bodies, true. However there are vastly more sorts of differences that may be used to stereotype individuals, differences such as red-haired v other skin and hair pigmentation or lack of, prognathous or regular jaw, eye colour, existence and position of birth marks, firstborn v other sibling relationship, age in years, number and violence level of childhood tantrums, lines on the palm of the hand, etc. We group people according to their primary and secondary sexual characteristics because we have learned to do so.

The concepts of biological sex and pyschological gender are normally aligned, and for sound reason and often ethical reason of social control.

I completely agree with you as to the faddishness of gender change most especially when the young person seeks to change their body by drugs or invasive surgery. I also recognise the fad's possibilities for increase in criminal activity. I am making the more general point that all concepts are social constructs.

With the advent of genetic engineering we now need to face the fact that the concept of biological sex may be becoming dysfunctional.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8265
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:59 pm J.K. Rowling was not invited by HBO to the Harry Potter anniversary reunion. Why not?
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 8th, 2023, 8:57 am Profit.

So many people were upset enough by JKR's outpourings that sales of Harry Potter merchandise (etc) fell. To maximise any remaining profits from the Potterverse, JKR was not invited.
Mercury wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:15 pm So are you saying HBO crunched the numbers, and identified a demographic whose decision on whether or not to continue a boycott of the Harry Potter franchise depended on whether or not J.K. Rowling was invited to the reunion?
I am saying that HBO recognised a drop in sales and profit. I am also saying that HBO decided — perhaps on the basis of surveys and market research? — that this drop was due to their customers being alienated by JKR's views. And so they decided to distance their company from those views by not inviting JKR to the reunion. As I said: "To maximise any remaining profits from the Potterverse, JKR was not invited."
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Mercury
Posts: 377
Joined: December 17th, 2013, 6:36 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 1:24 pm
Belindi wrote: January 7th, 2023, 10:06 am All stereotyping including allocation of biological sex is bad for individuals for whom freedom defines what it is to be human. If you want to grossly mutilate your own body I think you are making a mistake, and to mutilate someone else is evil.
I don't quite understand you here. Biological sex is not allocated. It's just a fact. Babies are born either male or female. In the vast majority of people, biological sex and psychological gender are aligned. There are a few people for whom that's not true - but they are rare. Genuine gender dysphoria does not explain the current trans craze. It's ideological; it's not a disordered relation between biological sex and psychological gender, but a fashion, a fad, a vogue - underpinned by politically correct gender politics. It's particularly damaging to young people; who may, as you say, inflict life-long changes on their bodies. But it's also a danger to women, to have men self-identifying as women, able to invade female only private spaces. It's a very bad policy - one that simply hasn't been thought through, because political correctness is anything but tolerant of the free expression of ideas, people are afraid to criticise.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amAll categories without exception are human concepts. No domestic or wild animal has any concept of biological sex. Humans are the only animals that think in abstract concepts.
That's neither true nor relevant. Biological sex is the basis of reproduction across the animal kingdom; some animals are born male, and others female. In many species males compete with other males for sexual access to females.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 am'Male' and 'female' are concepts i.e. frames that are useful in some way.
No. Male and female are biological facts and independent of human conceptualisation.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amAll known societies allocate sex and gender to individuals so that work and abilities can be most usefully allocated . This is why we have kinship rules, and special ceremonies for coming of age, and marriage.
No. Sex is a biological fact. In most individuals psychological gender is aligned to biological sex. According to physchologists, in a very few individuals, this is not the case - and there's a genuine disordered relationship between biological sex and psychological gender.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amThere are physical differences between male and female bodies, true.
Oh, so you noticed that? Then could you explain how biological sex is a matter of human conceptualisation?
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amHowever there are vastly more sorts of differences that may be used to stereotype individuals, differences such as red-haired v other skin and hair pigmentation or lack of, prognathous or regular jaw, eye colour, existence and position of birth marks, firstborn v other sibling relationship, age in years, number and violence level of childhood tantrums, lines on the palm of the hand, etc. We group people according to their primary and secondary sexual characteristics because we have learned to do so.
But we're not talking about those. We're talking about sex and gender.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amThe concepts of biological sex and pyschological gender are normally aligned, and for sound reason and often ethical reason of social control.
Control by whom exactly? God? Evolution? Men?? I have no idea what you're saying here.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amI completely agree with you as to the faddishness of gender change most especially when the young person seeks to change their body by drugs or invasive surgery. I also recognise the fad's possibilities for increase in criminal activity. I am making the more general point that all concepts are social constructs.
Humans conceptualise reality, but they don't construct reality - they describe it. Biological sex is described - not constructed. According to Piaget, who did a lot of experiments on childhood development, boys and girls play differently - and this relates to physical differences. Females bear children, and prepare in infancy for this role. They prefer social games - whereas boys prefer games that rehearse hunting behaviour. Gender straddles the nature nurture divide - I'll go that far, and society can either reinforce a gendered division of roles, or seek not to - but gender is heavily based in biology. It's not a social construct.
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 9:18 amWith the advent of genetic engineering we now need to face the fact that the concept of biological sex may be becoming dysfunctional.
Please explain that, because again, I've no idea what you mean.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Mercury
Posts: 377
Joined: December 17th, 2013, 6:36 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: January 7th, 2023, 8:59 pm J.K. Rowling was not invited by HBO to the Harry Potter anniversary reunion. Why not?
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 8th, 2023, 8:57 am Profit.

So many people were upset enough by JKR's outpourings that sales of Harry Potter merchandise (etc) fell. To maximise any remaining profits from the Potterverse, JKR was not invited.
Mercury wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:15 pm So are you saying HBO crunched the numbers, and identified a demographic whose decision on whether or not to continue a boycott of the Harry Potter franchise depended on whether or not J.K. Rowling was invited to the reunion?
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 9th, 2023, 10:48 amI am saying that HBO recognised a drop in sales and profit. I am also saying that HBO decided — perhaps on the basis of surveys and market research? — that this drop was due to their customers being alienated by JKR's views. And so they decided to distance their company from those views by not inviting JKR to the reunion. As I said: "To maximise any remaining profits from the Potterverse, JKR was not invited."
I simply do not believe there's a majority of people in favour of gender politics. I suspect most parents would be saddened if their children to grew up wanting to be the opposite sex - and do not want them encouraged to imagine they are. But political correctness very successfully exploits social exclusion; and people are afraid to be associated with ideas they can be criticised for - lest they be boycotted from social life, such that, the majority will not object, while the vocal minority will howl like banshees.
Consequently, HBO push this trans agenda on an audience smiling through gritted teeth - rather than give the audience what they really want. If they had done a survey, I think the vast majority of people would back JKR over the absolute nonsense Hermione is coming out with. And maybe Herminone is one of that vocal minority who will howl like a banshee if she doesn't get her own way. But then maybe she's terrified of social exclusion, and howls the appropriate noises for the sake of her career, and so it goes on! The monster we create devours us!
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Belindi »

Mercury, all human concepts are social constructs. If the lines on the palms of hands were deemed important to the survival and prosperity of the social group, then there would be a palms concept that divided people into one stereotype or another.

As far as we know other animals don't abstract concepts from their natural behaviours.
Mercury
Posts: 377
Joined: December 17th, 2013, 6:36 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Mercury »

Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 6:59 pm Mercury, all human concepts are social constructs. If the lines on the palms of hands were deemed important to the survival and prosperity of the social group, then there would be a palms concept that divided people into one stereotype or another.

As far as we know other animals don't abstract concepts from their natural behaviours.
I don't want to talk about this anymore. This thread is about social progress, and I was trying with Jack, to get back to that subject. I felt I owed you at least one response, but I'm not willing to engage in mutual contradiction - when it seems you're not able to make a simple distinction between an objective fact, and subjective understanding of that objective fact. Biological sex is not a concept. I think we should let Jack get back to his discussion of progress. If you want to pick this up in that thread in the philosophers lounge - we can do that, and oh no it isn't, oh yes it is until the cows come home. Or is that bulls?
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
User avatar
JackDaydream
Posts: 3218
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by JackDaydream »

Mercury wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:25 pm
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 6:59 pm Mercury, all human concepts are social constructs. If the lines on the palms of hands were deemed important to the survival and prosperity of the social group, then there would be a palms concept that divided people into one stereotype or another.

As far as we know other animals don't abstract concepts from their natural behaviours.
I don't want to talk about this anymore. This thread is about social progress, and I was trying with Jack, to get back to that subject. I felt I owed you at least one response, but I'm not willing to engage in mutual contradiction - when it seems you're not able to make a simple distinction between an objective fact, and subjective understanding of that objective fact. Biological sex is not a concept. I think we should let Jack get back to his discussion of progress. If you want to pick this up in that thread in the philosophers lounge - we can do that, and oh no it isn't, oh yes it is until the cows come home. Or is that bulls?
I know that gender is a complex area but in thinking about knowledge it is important to think how ideas such as male, female, good and evil, and all the opposites as well as concepts are constructed in human consciousness. Duality is an important aspect, just as all physical descriptions, such as colours, but it human beings who name these, with language being important in naming and the ongoing development of ideas. In addition there are visual images, with both the sensory aspects of experience and concepts being essential to the construction of ideas and as the underlying principles of human civilisation.
Mercury
Posts: 377
Joined: December 17th, 2013, 6:36 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by Mercury »

Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 6:59 pm Mercury, all human concepts are social constructs. If the lines on the palms of hands were deemed important to the survival and prosperity of the social group, then there would be a palms concept that divided people into one stereotype or another.

As far as we know other animals don't abstract concepts from their natural behaviours.
Mercury wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:25 pmI don't want to talk about this anymore. This thread is about social progress, and I was trying with Jack, to get back to that subject. I felt I owed you at least one response, but I'm not willing to engage in mutual contradiction - when it seems you're not able to make a simple distinction between an objective fact, and subjective understanding of that objective fact. Biological sex is not a concept. I think we should let Jack get back to his discussion of progress. If you want to pick this up in that thread in the philosophers lounge - we can do that, and oh no it isn't, oh yes it is until the cows come home. Or is that bulls?
JackDaydream wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:35 pmI know that gender is a complex area but in thinking about knowledge it is important to think how ideas such as male, female, good and evil, and all the opposites as well as concepts are constructed in human consciousness. Duality is an important aspect, just as all physical descriptions, such as colours, but it human beings who name these, with language being important in naming and the ongoing development of ideas. In addition there are visual images, with both the sensory aspects of experience and concepts being essential to the construction of ideas and as the underlying principles of human civilisation.
Biological sex is not primarily a concept. It's primarily physiological. The physiological reality is independent of conceptualisation. An objective fact; not dependent upon ideas about it. You're blurring obvious epistemic distinctions in pursuit of an agenda. Stop lying to yourself. You know what you are saying is false. I'm not sure whether Belindi understands this or not, but I know you do.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
User avatar
JackDaydream
Posts: 3218
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: Human Culture: How May the Idea of 'Progress' in History, Knowledge and Civilisation be Analysed Philosophically?

Post by JackDaydream »

Mercury wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:56 pm
Belindi wrote: January 9th, 2023, 6:59 pm Mercury, all human concepts are social constructs. If the lines on the palms of hands were deemed important to the survival and prosperity of the social group, then there would be a palms concept that divided people into one stereotype or another.

As far as we know other animals don't abstract concepts from their natural behaviours.
Mercury wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:25 pmI don't want to talk about this anymore. This thread is about social progress, and I was trying with Jack, to get back to that subject. I felt I owed you at least one response, but I'm not willing to engage in mutual contradiction - when it seems you're not able to make a simple distinction between an objective fact, and subjective understanding of that objective fact. Biological sex is not a concept. I think we should let Jack get back to his discussion of progress. If you want to pick this up in that thread in the philosophers lounge - we can do that, and oh no it isn't, oh yes it is until the cows come home. Or is that bulls?
JackDaydream wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:35 pmI know that gender is a complex area but in thinking about knowledge it is important to think how ideas such as male, female, good and evil, and all the opposites as well as concepts are constructed in human consciousness. Duality is an important aspect, just as all physical descriptions, such as colours, but it human beings who name these, with language being important in naming and the ongoing development of ideas. In addition there are visual images, with both the sensory aspects of experience and concepts being essential to the construction of ideas and as the underlying principles of human civilisation.
Biological sex is not primarily a concept. It's primarily physiological. The physiological reality is independent of conceptualisation. An objective fact; not dependent upon ideas about it. You're blurring obvious epistemic distinctions in pursuit of an agenda. Stop lying to yourself. You know what you are saying is false. I'm not sure whether Belindi understands this or not, but I know you do.
I am not denying that biological gender exists but it is probably exaggerated so much culturally. For example, in clothes shops there are clear male and female sections, as well as sections of books and even birthday cards divided in such ways. There are even customs like coats doing up on the male and female sides. In addition, people frequently address people differently as'sir', 'madam', 'mate' and 'love' often and this goes beyond the reproductive aspects of gender, but the underlying subtext may be about sexuality. It is connected to reproduction but I it is more about the dynamics existing between men and women in cultural life. Sexual expression is a strong force underlying human interaction and so many aspects of civilisation and culture from antiquity to the present time.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021