The Conundrum of Suicide: What are the Underlying Philosophical Issues?

[JackDaydream]

My friend just committed suicide.
I do not think there are philosophical issues to explain this.
He made a choice.

Do you wish to share more, or leave it there? You are probably in shock, especially if it is really recent.It is indeed a choice, made at a particular moment in time. Sometimes, philosophy opinions may be too prominent. I haven't created the thread to seek hard, black and white answers, and it is a thread intended for reflection.

I'd lost contact with his over the pandemic, as we used to work together in a sculpture studio which had to close.
It was mostly a shock because I found out on Facebook - people saying "RIP". Right there in front of me. I had to message a stranger to find out.

He had a small child. and was busy with art about to have an exhibition. I'd thought he was doing well. So quite a shock.

I can imagine that it must have been horrible shock finding out, especially finding out in that way. It also leads me to think about friends who I have lost contact with, especially in the last few years and since I stopped working. The last few years have been particularly challenging in so many ways, in the loss of so many work environments and financial worries. The life of artists may not be the easiest path to follow.

Also, I have found when people I have known have committed suicide I am left in the dark about that final moment of turmoil that the person was going through.

[Pattern-chaser]

I laughed at "negative charisma" because it is so true. It's an odd thing to be the kind of child that others actively dislike, with no idea why that is so. You think you are nice, but the world tells you that you are somehow defective. Still, if our schools had managed to evolve from the 19th century model, things may have been better for those of us on the spectrum. Put a many children together in the way that schools do, and the strong will take out the weak and reduce competition for mates and resources. Trouble is, the "weak" are often those with brains and morality, who could be good societal contributors, but whose capacity to contribute can be severely limited by PTSD.

Ultimately, the ultimate point of bullying is to eliminate competition. A victim's suicide is ultimately a success for bullies. I remember the kidds at school trying to actively get me to commit suicide because they knew how depressed they made me, chanting 'Do it! Do it! Do it!' - and the teachers and other students did nothing to help. At least these days there would probably be a fuss about such psychopathic behaviour.

I really want to contribute some more to this sub-thread, but you put this (above) so beautifully, I don't want to post anything that might detract from what you wrote, or the way you wrote it. I find myself quite emotional as I write this, and I'm surprised to discover that this is so...

I am heartily in agreement with what you say.

[JackDaydream]

I do appreciate the difficulties of autism and stigma, but there is are so many aspects of difference and bullying. I can remember being called ET which implied that I was a strange little alien. There are so many forms of bullying too, ranging from insults to physical assaults. For some reason, one particular boy was punching and kicking me for months daily and he must have been projecting so much onto me.

The whole spectrum of differences is so vast. I can remember in the LGBTIQ community there was almost a hierarchy of the most disadvantaged. This may miss the subjective nature of the impact of bullying. Some may be able to brush aside so much intentional cruelty and part of this may depend on social support. However, in relation to feeling suicidal there may be no real objective measures because some may find that their sense of self is disrupted more easily. In this way, ego fragility and solidity are important and each of us has different developments of defense mechanisms and sensitivities.

I laughed at "negative charisma" because it is so true. It's an odd thing to be the kind of child that others actively dislike, with no idea why that is so. You think you are nice, but the world tells you that you are somehow defective. Still, if our schools had managed to evolve from the 19th century model, things may have been better for those of us on the spectrum. Put a many children together in the way that schools do, and the strong will take out the weak and reduce competition for mates and resources. Trouble is, the "weak" are often those with brains and morality, who could be good societal contributors, but whose capacity to contribute can be severely limited by PTSD.

Ultimately, the ultimate point of bullying is to eliminate competition. A victim's suicide is ultimately a success for bullies. I remember the kidds at school trying to actively get me to commit suicide because they knew how depressed they made me, chanting 'Do it! Do it! Do it!' - and the teachers and other students did nothing to help. At least these days there would probably be a fuss about such psychopathic behaviour.

I am surprised that it ever went as far as children realising that they made you feel suicidal and saying, Do it! Do it! Do it!' I wonder what would have happened if you really had killed yourself. I have known adults say that to others, and I have felt that I have come across more intentional malice in adults. Even though I got bullied at school I didn't really feel the hatred was there as such, when my school briefcase was hidden or when my geography book was covered in graffiti, but there is a fine line between humour and malice. I have been more surprised by the way I have felt in adulthood that I have people who choose to have seen me as an enemy. When that happens it does seem that one poses a threat to another in a deep seated psychological way.

To really wish another to kill themselves is something else entirely, and may be a manifestation of deep seated hatred of oneself projected on to another. The hatred of the self and others may be interconnected, such as when Hitler committed atrocities and, then killed himself.

There may be even a spectrum of suicide intentions ranging from the difficulty of endurance of extreme suffering, physically and emotionally to the sense of deep seated loathing of oneself. The latter may be far more toxic, but it may be that some people cannot even separate it out, especially in despair. For example, as a teenager the loathing may come due to self image about the body, which may be all encompassing, but it may not be as extreme as if one thinks one is a terrible person. There may be different levels of ego fragility, even though at times they may become blurred in what has been called in psychoanalysis, the sense of 'the nameless dread'.

I like that - 'the nameless dread'. Yes, various issues blend together to become generalised anxiety.

Ultimately, if there is a foreseeable end to suffering, it's better to tough it out than to fold. If the suffering has no end, as with certain illnesses, then it probably comes down to how one's family feels. It would help if there was a better word than 'suicide' to describe people killing themselves for logical reasons, due to the stigma around the term. Ultimately, it's 'controlled death' rather than suicide, which semantically refers to death via emotional torment.

The terminally ill can (theoretically) control the last stages of death or they can let nature take it course, but this is a risk which could end up being akin to being sentenced to endure Mediaeval torture for months, or even years.

The term suicide is so loaded to describe so many complex situational choices surrounding the end of life. In the case of the terminally ill, euthanasia may be more appropriate although that would probably involve another partaking in the decision. Even though you say there are logical reasons in the case of the terminally ill, it may be that those who do decide to commit suicide feel at that moment that there is no hope at all, in the words which are attributed to Van Gogh, 'the misery will never end.'

[Sy Borg]

I laughed at "negative charisma" because it is so true. It's an odd thing to be the kind of child that others actively dislike, with no idea why that is so. You think you are nice, but the world tells you that you are somehow defective. Still, if our schools had managed to evolve from the 19th century model, things may have been better for those of us on the spectrum. Put a many children together in the way that schools do, and the strong will take out the weak and reduce competition for mates and resources. Trouble is, the "weak" are often those with brains and morality, who could be good societal contributors, but whose capacity to contribute can be severely limited by PTSD.

Ultimately, the ultimate point of bullying is to eliminate competition. A victim's suicide is ultimately a success for bullies. I remember the kidds at school trying to actively get me to commit suicide because they knew how depressed they made me, chanting 'Do it! Do it! Do it!' - and the teachers and other students did nothing to help. At least these days there would probably be a fuss about such psychopathic behaviour.

I am surprised that it ever went as far as children realising that they made you feel suicidal and saying, Do it! Do it! Do it!' I wonder what would have happened if you really had killed yourself. I have known adults say that to others, and I have felt that I have come across more intentional malice in adults. Even though I got bullied at school I didn't really feel the hatred was there as such, when my school briefcase was hidden or when my geography book was covered in graffiti, but there is a fine line between humour and malice. I have been more surprised by the way I have felt in adulthood that I have people who choose to have seen me as an enemy. When that happens it does seem that one poses a threat to another in a deep seated psychological way.

To really wish another to kill themselves is something else entirely, and may be a manifestation of deep seated hatred of oneself projected on to another. The hatred of the self and others may be interconnected, such as when Hitler committed atrocities and, then killed himself.

There may be even a spectrum of suicide intentions ranging from the difficulty of endurance of extreme suffering, physically and emotionally to the sense of deep seated loathing of oneself. The latter may be far more toxic, but it may be that some people cannot even separate it out, especially in despair. For example, as a teenager the loathing may come due to self image about the body, which may be all encompassing, but it may not be as extreme as if one thinks one is a terrible person. There may be different levels of ego fragility, even though at times they may become blurred in what has been called in psychoanalysis, the sense of 'the nameless dread'.

I like that - 'the nameless dread'. Yes, various issues blend together to become generalised anxiety.

Ultimately, if there is a foreseeable end to suffering, it's better to tough it out than to fold. If the suffering has no end, as with certain illnesses, then it probably comes down to how one's family feels. It would help if there was a better word than 'suicide' to describe people killing themselves for logical reasons, due to the stigma around the term. Ultimately, it's 'controlled death' rather than suicide, which semantically refers to death via emotional torment.

The terminally ill can (theoretically) control the last stages of death or they can let nature take it course, but this is a risk which could end up being akin to being sentenced to endure Mediaeval torture for months, or even years.

The term suicide is so loaded to describe so many complex situational choices surrounding the end of life. In the case of the terminally ill, euthanasia may be more appropriate although that would probably involve another partaking in the decision. Even though you say there are logical reasons in the case of the terminally ill, it may be that those who do decide to commit suicide feel at that moment that there is no hope at all, in the words which are attributed to Van Gogh, 'the misery will never end.'

Yes, lack of hope that things will improve. Being terminally ill is a bad enough situation without do-gooders interfering with their ability to deal with the situation.

[Sy Borg]

I laughed at "negative charisma" because it is so true. It's an odd thing to be the kind of child that others actively dislike, with no idea why that is so. You think you are nice, but the world tells you that you are somehow defective. Still, if our schools had managed to evolve from the 19th century model, things may have been better for those of us on the spectrum. Put a many children together in the way that schools do, and the strong will take out the weak and reduce competition for mates and resources. Trouble is, the "weak" are often those with brains and morality, who could be good societal contributors, but whose capacity to contribute can be severely limited by PTSD.

Ultimately, the ultimate point of bullying is to eliminate competition. A victim's suicide is ultimately a success for bullies. I remember the kidds at school trying to actively get me to commit suicide because they knew how depressed they made me, chanting 'Do it! Do it! Do it!' - and the teachers and other students did nothing to help. At least these days there would probably be a fuss about such psychopathic behaviour.

I really want to contribute some more to this sub-thread, but you put this (above) so beautifully, I don't want to post anything that might detract from what you wrote, or the way you wrote it. I find myself quite emotional as I write this, and I'm surprised to discover that this is so...

I am heartily in agreement with what you say.

Thanks, but there were, ultimately, too many "ultimatelys" (ultimatelies?) for my liking.

Seriously, it's a strange thing to be noticeably different to one's peers, especially when you don't know anything about those differences. I always knew something odd was going on with me and the world, but I had zero understanding, just an animal sense of discord. In that sense, the ADHD diagnosis in middle age was a relief. This difference turned out to be a known thing. I felt like I'd finally learned the name of the bat that had been flying around in my belfry.

Apparently, people on the spectrum are four times more likely to commit suicide than the general populace. The number who have considered suicide but didn't follow through may be significant. I feel like the sensitivity, gormlessness and timidity of my autism actually helped me not go through with my suicidal thoughts when I was at school. It was all too difficult and overwhelming, and the effect it would have on family made it pretty well untenable.

[JackDaydream]

I am surprised that it ever went as far as children realising that they made you feel suicidal and saying, Do it! Do it! Do it!' I wonder what would have happened if you really had killed yourself. I have known adults say that to others, and I have felt that I have come across more intentional malice in adults. Even though I got bullied at school I didn't really feel the hatred was there as such, when my school briefcase was hidden or when my geography book was covered in graffiti, but there is a fine line between humour and malice. I have been more surprised by the way I have felt in adulthood that I have people who choose to have seen me as an enemy. When that happens it does seem that one poses a threat to another in a deep seated psychological way.

To really wish another to kill themselves is something else entirely, and may be a manifestation of deep seated hatred of oneself projected on to another. The hatred of the self and others may be interconnected, such as when Hitler committed atrocities and, then killed himself.

There may be even a spectrum of suicide intentions ranging from the difficulty of endurance of extreme suffering, physically and emotionally to the sense of deep seated loathing of oneself. The latter may be far more toxic, but it may be that some people cannot even separate it out, especially in despair. For example, as a teenager the loathing may come due to self image about the body, which may be all encompassing, but it may not be as extreme as if one thinks one is a terrible person. There may be different levels of ego fragility, even though at times they may become blurred in what has been called in psychoanalysis, the sense of 'the nameless dread'.

I like that - 'the nameless dread'. Yes, various issues blend together to become generalised anxiety.

Ultimately, if there is a foreseeable end to suffering, it's better to tough it out than to fold. If the suffering has no end, as with certain illnesses, then it probably comes down to how one's family feels. It would help if there was a better word than 'suicide' to describe people killing themselves for logical reasons, due to the stigma around the term. Ultimately, it's 'controlled death' rather than suicide, which semantically refers to death via emotional torment.

The terminally ill can (theoretically) control the last stages of death or they can let nature take it course, but this is a risk which could end up being akin to being sentenced to endure Mediaeval torture for months, or even years.

The term suicide is so loaded to describe so many complex situational choices surrounding the end of life. In the case of the terminally ill, euthanasia may be more appropriate although that would probably involve another partaking in the decision. Even though you say there are logical reasons in the case of the terminally ill, it may be that those who do decide to commit suicide feel at that moment that there is no hope at all, in the words which are attributed to Van Gogh, 'the misery will never end.'

Yes, lack of hope that things will improve. Being terminally ill is a bad enough situation without do-gooders interfering with their ability to deal with the situation.

The momentary aspects of loss of hope can sometimes obscure judgements. I have known a few people who have made suicide attempts after a romance going wrong, as it was 'the end of the world'. Sometimes, with bad experiences in general it is hard to know the full impact at the time. There have been times when I have had some unpleasant social drama and 24 hours later it seems insignificant and other times where the problem may have long term consequences.

I like to give myself some reflective space and often go out meandering around. I can remember a few years ago I was walking round and round in HMV music shop to the point where a member of staff queried what I was looking for. Unwinding is important and I always find listening to music to be one of the best ways and, see it as being one of the best antidotes for feelings of deep despair. I even have an album by Slipknot titled, 'When All Hope is Gone'. I don't play it that often as it is terribly heavy, but I have my Slipknot and nu metal blues moments, and even days when The Doors are so cathartic.

Even with some people who are on the point of dying with terminal illness there may be some transformational moments. I believe that hospice care works with that assumption, although it may be idealistic in some ways. There is, of course, the Timothy Leary option of psychedelic transformation at the borderlands of death, but it may intensify pain, so it may be more hazardous rather than helpful.

[Sy Borg]

I like that - 'the nameless dread'. Yes, various issues blend together to become generalised anxiety.

Ultimately, if there is a foreseeable end to suffering, it's better to tough it out than to fold. If the suffering has no end, as with certain illnesses, then it probably comes down to how one's family feels. It would help if there was a better word than 'suicide' to describe people killing themselves for logical reasons, due to the stigma around the term. Ultimately, it's 'controlled death' rather than suicide, which semantically refers to death via emotional torment.

The terminally ill can (theoretically) control the last stages of death or they can let nature take it course, but this is a risk which could end up being akin to being sentenced to endure Mediaeval torture for months, or even years.

The term suicide is so loaded to describe so many complex situational choices surrounding the end of life. In the case of the terminally ill, euthanasia may be more appropriate although that would probably involve another partaking in the decision. Even though you say there are logical reasons in the case of the terminally ill, it may be that those who do decide to commit suicide feel at that moment that there is no hope at all, in the words which are attributed to Van Gogh, 'the misery will never end.'

Yes, lack of hope that things will improve. Being terminally ill is a bad enough situation without do-gooders interfering with their ability to deal with the situation.

The momentary aspects of loss of hope can sometimes obscure judgements. I have known a few people who have made suicide attempts after a romance going wrong, as it was 'the end of the world'. Sometimes, with bad experiences in general it is hard to know the full impact at the time. There have been times when I have had some unpleasant social drama and 24 hours later it seems insignificant and other times where the problem may have long term consequences.

I like to give myself some reflective space and often go out meandering around. I can remember a few years ago I was walking round and round in HMV music shop to the point where a member of staff queried what I was looking for. Unwinding is important and I always find listening to music to be one of the best ways and, see it as being one of the best antidotes for feelings of deep despair. I even have an album by Slipknot titled, 'When All Hope is Gone'. I don't play it that often as it is terribly heavy, but I have my Slipknot and nu metal blues moments, and even days when The Doors are so cathartic.

Even with some people who are on the point of dying with terminal illness there may be some transformational moments. I believe that hospice care works with that assumption, although it may be idealistic in some ways. There is, of course, the Timothy Leary option of psychedelic transformation at the borderlands of death, but it may intensify pain, so it may be more hazardous rather than helpful.

I admit to laughing at the idea of giving trips to dying people. OMG isn't dying weird and psychedelic enough without going all out? Still, I would not deny it (or anything ) to those who are dying and request it. Personally, if I was in that situation, and euthanasia was off the table, I'd want painkillers delivered to the point of either stopping the pain or unconsciousness, whichever comes first. Plus a mountain of weed, which can achieve some of what psychedelics do, but without the weirdness.

Music is probably underused in medical and psychological treatments. It's well-known that dementia patients can show remarkable enlivening when played their favourite songs. For whatever reason, we humans simply enjoy air molecules sculpted by vibrations. But Slipknot would only make me seek a faster exit

[JackDaydream]

The term suicide is so loaded to describe so many complex situational choices surrounding the end of life. In the case of the terminally ill, euthanasia may be more appropriate although that would probably involve another partaking in the decision. Even though you say there are logical reasons in the case of the terminally ill, it may be that those who do decide to commit suicide feel at that moment that there is no hope at all, in the words which are attributed to Van Gogh, 'the misery will never end.'

Yes, lack of hope that things will improve. Being terminally ill is a bad enough situation without do-gooders interfering with their ability to deal with the situation.

The momentary aspects of loss of hope can sometimes obscure judgements. I have known a few people who have made suicide attempts after a romance going wrong, as it was 'the end of the world'. Sometimes, with bad experiences in general it is hard to know the full impact at the time. There have been times when I have had some unpleasant social drama and 24 hours later it seems insignificant and other times where the problem may have long term consequences.

I like to give myself some reflective space and often go out meandering around. I can remember a few years ago I was walking round and round in HMV music shop to the point where a member of staff queried what I was looking for. Unwinding is important and I always find listening to music to be one of the best ways and, see it as being one of the best antidotes for feelings of deep despair. I even have an album by Slipknot titled, 'When All Hope is Gone'. I don't play it that often as it is terribly heavy, but I have my Slipknot and nu metal blues moments, and even days when The Doors are so cathartic.

Even with some people who are on the point of dying with terminal illness there may be some transformational moments. I believe that hospice care works with that assumption, although it may be idealistic in some ways. There is, of course, the Timothy Leary option of psychedelic transformation at the borderlands of death, but it may intensify pain, so it may be more hazardous rather than helpful.

I admit to laughing at the idea of giving trips to dying people. OMG isn't dying weird and psychedelic enough without going all out? Still, I would not deny it (or anything ) to those who are dying and request it. Personally, if I was in that situation, and euthanasia was off the table, I'd want painkillers delivered to the point of either stopping the pain or unconsciousness, whichever comes first. Plus a mountain of weed, which can achieve some of what psychedelics do, but without the weirdness.

Music is probably underused in medical and psychological treatments. It's well-known that dementia patients can show remarkable enlivening when played their favourite songs. For whatever reason, we humans simply enjoy air molecules sculpted by vibrations. But Slipknot would only make me seek a faster exit

I am definitely aware of the transformational effects of music for people who have dementia. That is because I have run activities in elderly mental health care and found that listening to music seemed to have such a profound role with people who have dementia and emotional difficulties, especially songs which they knew at earlier stages in their lives. It probably lies in brain wiring of memory and neurochemistry.

At one stage, when I was studying art therapy, I went through such a big phase of nu metal and 'emo' music. I used to go and see live bands in Camden a couple of times a week and even went to a 'Kerrang' magazine metal festival. I was really upset when the lead singer of Linkin Park committed suicide. I still have some of the discs from that time but don't play them very often. I saw that exploration as being my own working with my 'shadow' side. I do also really like Kurt Cobain's Nirvana but, intuitively, feel that it is probably not best to listen to such music all the time, for its subliminal effects.

Music has such a profound effect on the mind. Even though it is a little bit too classical for me I have seen the sound healer, Tim Wheater, perform. A few times I was at music festivals where there were dream machines, which involved headphones and goggles which affected brain waves, equivalent to deep meditation and I found this an amazing experience.

As far as psychedelic experience goes, psyche rock ranging from the 60s to the current time is probably my favourite genre, and I find that enough to be mind expanding, and probably enough without any hallucinogenic substances. The last few times I tried weed it wasn't that wonderful for me, especially as I don't smoke and smoking it seems to give me a sore throat. The one over the counter herbal tablet which I find particularly relaxing is Passiflora. I tried tablets containing Valerian a few times and they made me feel terrible and I have read that the drug Valerian is chemically related to Valium. But, music may have power equal to medicines in the transformation and healing of emotions, including the depths of despair. Meditation may also have important potential, even though it may be an art which has to be learned.

[Sy Borg]

Yes, lack of hope that things will improve. Being terminally ill is a bad enough situation without do-gooders interfering with their ability to deal with the situation.

The momentary aspects of loss of hope can sometimes obscure judgements. I have known a few people who have made suicide attempts after a romance going wrong, as it was 'the end of the world'. Sometimes, with bad experiences in general it is hard to know the full impact at the time. There have been times when I have had some unpleasant social drama and 24 hours later it seems insignificant and other times where the problem may have long term consequences.

I like to give myself some reflective space and often go out meandering around. I can remember a few years ago I was walking round and round in HMV music shop to the point where a member of staff queried what I was looking for. Unwinding is important and I always find listening to music to be one of the best ways and, see it as being one of the best antidotes for feelings of deep despair. I even have an album by Slipknot titled, 'When All Hope is Gone'. I don't play it that often as it is terribly heavy, but I have my Slipknot and nu metal blues moments, and even days when The Doors are so cathartic.

Even with some people who are on the point of dying with terminal illness there may be some transformational moments. I believe that hospice care works with that assumption, although it may be idealistic in some ways. There is, of course, the Timothy Leary option of psychedelic transformation at the borderlands of death, but it may intensify pain, so it may be more hazardous rather than helpful.

I admit to laughing at the idea of giving trips to dying people. OMG isn't dying weird and psychedelic enough without going all out? Still, I would not deny it (or anything ) to those who are dying and request it. Personally, if I was in that situation, and euthanasia was off the table, I'd want painkillers delivered to the point of either stopping the pain or unconsciousness, whichever comes first. Plus a mountain of weed, which can achieve some of what psychedelics do, but without the weirdness.

Music is probably underused in medical and psychological treatments. It's well-known that dementia patients can show remarkable enlivening when played their favourite songs. For whatever reason, we humans simply enjoy air molecules sculpted by vibrations. But Slipknot would only make me seek a faster exit

I am definitely aware of the transformational effects of music for people who have dementia. That is because I have run activities in elderly mental health care and found that listening to music seemed to have such a profound role with people who have dementia and emotional difficulties, especially songs which they knew at earlier stages in their lives. It probably lies in brain wiring of memory and neurochemistry.

At one stage, when I was studying art therapy, I went through such a big phase of nu metal and 'emo' music. I used to go and see live bands in Camden a couple of times a week and even went to a 'Kerrang' magazine metal festival. I was really upset when the lead singer of Linkin Park committed suicide. I still have some of the discs from that time but don't play them very often. I saw that exploration as being my own working with my 'shadow' side. I do also really like Kurt Cobain's Nirvana but, intuitively, feel that it is probably not best to listen to such music all the time, for its subliminal effects.

Music has such a profound effect on the mind. Even though it is a little bit too classical for me I have seen the sound healer, Tim Wheater, perform. A few times I was at music festivals where there were dream machines, which involved headphones and goggles which affected brain waves, equivalent to deep meditation and I found this an amazing experience.

As far as psychedelic experience goes, psyche rock ranging from the 60s to the current time is probably my favourite genre, and I find that enough to be mind expanding, and probably enough without any hallucinogenic substances. The last few times I tried weed it wasn't that wonderful for me, especially as I don't smoke and smoking it seems to give me a sore throat. The one over the counter herbal tablet which I find particularly relaxing is Passiflora. I tried tablets containing Valerian a few times and they made me feel terrible and I have read that the drug Valerian is chemically related to Valium. But, music may have power equal to medicines in the transformation and healing of emotions, including the depths of despair. Meditation may also have important potential, even though it may be an art which has to be learned.

Music therapy seems like a fascinating field. I wonder if people in sixty years' time will respond to music in that way in old age? Music was a huge element of young people's lives last century. Now it has been largely replaced by multimedia - videos and games. Then again, one would hope that by then there would be a cure, or preventive measures. Otherwise, those with dementia will be probably be played video clips and game sequences - that which was closest to their hearts in their teens.

[JackDaydream]

The momentary aspects of loss of hope can sometimes obscure judgements. I have known a few people who have made suicide attempts after a romance going wrong, as it was 'the end of the world'. Sometimes, with bad experiences in general it is hard to know the full impact at the time. There have been times when I have had some unpleasant social drama and 24 hours later it seems insignificant and other times where the problem may have long term consequences.

I like to give myself some reflective space and often go out meandering around. I can remember a few years ago I was walking round and round in HMV music shop to the point where a member of staff queried what I was looking for. Unwinding is important and I always find listening to music to be one of the best ways and, see it as being one of the best antidotes for feelings of deep despair. I even have an album by Slipknot titled, 'When All Hope is Gone'. I don't play it that often as it is terribly heavy, but I have my Slipknot and nu metal blues moments, and even days when The Doors are so cathartic.

Even with some people who are on the point of dying with terminal illness there may be some transformational moments. I believe that hospice care works with that assumption, although it may be idealistic in some ways. There is, of course, the Timothy Leary option of psychedelic transformation at the borderlands of death, but it may intensify pain, so it may be more hazardous rather than helpful.

I admit to laughing at the idea of giving trips to dying people. OMG isn't dying weird and psychedelic enough without going all out? Still, I would not deny it (or anything ) to those who are dying and request it. Personally, if I was in that situation, and euthanasia was off the table, I'd want painkillers delivered to the point of either stopping the pain or unconsciousness, whichever comes first. Plus a mountain of weed, which can achieve some of what psychedelics do, but without the weirdness.

Music is probably underused in medical and psychological treatments. It's well-known that dementia patients can show remarkable enlivening when played their favourite songs. For whatever reason, we humans simply enjoy air molecules sculpted by vibrations. But Slipknot would only make me seek a faster exit

I am definitely aware of the transformational effects of music for people who have dementia. That is because I have run activities in elderly mental health care and found that listening to music seemed to have such a profound role with people who have dementia and emotional difficulties, especially songs which they knew at earlier stages in their lives. It probably lies in brain wiring of memory and neurochemistry.

At one stage, when I was studying art therapy, I went through such a big phase of nu metal and 'emo' music. I used to go and see live bands in Camden a couple of times a week and even went to a 'Kerrang' magazine metal festival. I was really upset when the lead singer of Linkin Park committed suicide. I still have some of the discs from that time but don't play them very often. I saw that exploration as being my own working with my 'shadow' side. I do also really like Kurt Cobain's Nirvana but, intuitively, feel that it is probably not best to listen to such music all the time, for its subliminal effects.

Music has such a profound effect on the mind. Even though it is a little bit too classical for me I have seen the sound healer, Tim Wheater, perform. A few times I was at music festivals where there were dream machines, which involved headphones and goggles which affected brain waves, equivalent to deep meditation and I found this an amazing experience.

As far as psychedelic experience goes, psyche rock ranging from the 60s to the current time is probably my favourite genre, and I find that enough to be mind expanding, and probably enough without any hallucinogenic substances. The last few times I tried weed it wasn't that wonderful for me, especially as I don't smoke and smoking it seems to give me a sore throat. The one over the counter herbal tablet which I find particularly relaxing is Passiflora. I tried tablets containing Valerian a few times and they made me feel terrible and I have read that the drug Valerian is chemically related to Valium. But, music may have power equal to medicines in the transformation and healing of emotions, including the depths of despair. Meditation may also have important potential, even though it may be an art which has to be learned.

Music therapy seems like a fascinating field. I wonder if people in sixty years' time will respond to music in that way in old age? Music was a huge element of young people's lives last century. Now it has been largely replaced by multimedia - videos and games. Then again, one would hope that by then there would be a cure, or preventive measures. Otherwise, those with dementia will be probably be played video clips and game sequences - that which was closest to their hearts in their teens.

The arts as therapies, for appreciation and expression seems to me to be undervalued. Having studied art therapy, I became aware how they have lost so much funding, especially in mental health care. At the same time, I am aware of many, including those with ongoing suicidal ideas, often claim to find art expression especially helpful. But, art therapy is often replaced by cheaper solutions.

I am certainly not saying that psychodynamic based therapies, including art therapies, are superior in any way to those based on the cognitive-behavioral approach. It may come down to the actual therapist rather than the underlying model. However, a lot may come down to cost-effectiveness and there is an increasing move towards online tools. Some may find these tools helpful but it is a move towards the quantifiable and the 'tick box' culture emerging in healthcare.

As far as music appreciation, because I only listen to it and don't make music, it does seem that it is becoming much more shallow gradually, especially with video clips. I find that so many people only play songs on YouTube and don't listen to albums at all. Sometimes, people come to my room and see all my piles of CDs and say, 'Why don't you get rid of them and just stream on the computer.' These people often relate to music in a very different way to me, and usually don't see it as an art form in it's own right. When I am listening to music, I usually don't do anything else at the same time and, see it as a journey into the aesthetics of 'inner space'.

[Pattern-chaser]

Apparently, people on the spectrum are four times more likely to commit suicide than the general populace. The number who have considered suicide but didn't follow through may be significant. I feel like the sensitivity, gormlessness and timidity of my autism actually helped me not go through with my suicidal thoughts when I was at school. It was all too difficult and overwhelming, and the effect it would have on family made it pretty well untenable.

Yes, I thought at first our conversation here was off-topic, but it isn't. Autists die much earlier than the rest of the population:

...our life expectancies are much lower than yours (around 56!), especially if we are unlucky enough also to have 'special educational needs' (around 36!!!).

It's important to note here, for those who don't know or realise, that autism is not a terminal condition. It doesn't kill you.

So why is our life expectancy 20+ years less than the average neurotypical person, or 40+ if we're unlucky enough to have special educational needs, as many autistic and non-autistic people are? I have no figures to confirm this, but my guess is that the cause splits between suicide, brought on by the despair of lifelong rejection, and neglect (because we are rejected and disliked, we are widely ignored; they call it 'unconscious bias', but the effect is the same as if it wasn't unconscious). An autistic person complaining of a serious medical condition is much more likely than an NT person to be sent home with a paracetamol...

Whatever the reason(s) might actually be, the fact remains that our life expectancy is very far outside the expected norms. Suicide must surely contribute significantly to this surprising and frightening empirical fact?

[Sy Borg]

Apparently, people on the spectrum are four times more likely to commit suicide than the general populace. The number who have considered suicide but didn't follow through may be significant. I feel like the sensitivity, gormlessness and timidity of my autism actually helped me not go through with my suicidal thoughts when I was at school. It was all too difficult and overwhelming, and the effect it would have on family made it pretty well untenable.

Yes, I thought at first our conversation here was off-topic, but it isn't. Autists die much earlier than the rest of the population:

...our life expectancies are much lower than yours (around 56!), especially if we are unlucky enough also to have 'special educational needs' (around 36!!!).

It's important to note here, for those who don't know or realise, that autism is not a terminal condition. It doesn't kill you.

So why is our life expectancy 20+ years less than the average neurotypical person, or 40+ if we're unlucky enough to have special educational needs, as many autistic and non-autistic people are? I have no figures to confirm this, but my guess is that the cause splits between suicide, brought on by the despair of lifelong rejection, and neglect (because we are rejected and disliked, we are widely ignored; they call it 'unconscious bias', but the effect is the same as if it wasn't unconscious). An autistic person complaining of a serious medical condition is much more likely than an NT person to be sent home with a paracetamol...

Whatever the reason(s) might actually be, the fact remains that our life expectancy is very far outside the expected norms. Suicide must surely contribute significantly to this surprising and frightening empirical fact?

Yes, suicide and also behaviours linked to depression like self-neglect and addictions.

[JackDaydream]

If may be asked to what extent is suicide the most creative option in the face of despair?.) I am not trying to make any moral judgements here, but question the option of suicide in its existential dimensions, of life and death. I am not suggesting that those who commit suicide are making a 'wrong' choice morally, but thinking may involve many pragmatic aspects, especially that everyone is going to die oneday, with the possibilities being ending life now or carrying on. I am certainly not trying to moralise but it may be worth thinking about, if nothing else.

[Sy Borg]

Suicide is the least creative option, the equivalent of knocking down your whole Lego creation because it's not perfect.

I think that an underestimated reason might be to avoid bringing one's family into financial hardship. End-of-life care in lieu of sensible euthanasia laws, is not only fundamentally futile, but hugely expensive, adding to the pain of the bereaved (and the dying person!). With eight billion people, there's imply not enough resources to cover everyone's expenses, so some people leave early to avoid bringing financial ruin on their SOs.

[ReviewsByChristine]

I was recently confronted with this topic when the first of my family members chose to use medically assisted suicide. She was asked by one of the evaluating psychologist if she was religious and how she feels about her religion being against assisted suicide. She summed up the response perfectly in "well I would say I just have to do what is right for me".

Us living people initially have the responsibility to council and provide options. In the case of those experiencing mental health episodes we have a moral obligation to inform the authorities or health care personnel as appropriate. Other than that, it is everyone's own choice and our responsibility is to butt out and support.

Therefore, I see suicide and suicidality as an important topic in philosophy. What do you see to be the ethical issues, both for individuals who are contemplating it and the moral responsibility towards those who are suicidal? Also, what existential issues does it involve, including what makes life worth living?