Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

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GrayArea
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by GrayArea »

Amadeus7 wrote: March 9th, 2023, 10:10 pm I just wanted to share my thoughts on what consciousness may be in hopes of getting feedback on how plausible this idea is.

Short Explanation - Consciousness arises when an electric field changes.

Long Explanation - Our brains are filled with neurons, these neurons fire electrical charges, this causes changes in the electric fields in the brain. When we are alive our brains have electrical activity, when we are dead they don't.

This leads me to believe that our conscious experience is tied to a change in an electric field.

If this is true then how do we experience so many unique subjective experiences? It's simple actually, an electric field can have many shapes based on the surrounding disturbances which gives rise to the wide variety of conscious experiences we have.

Does my conscious experience come from one field or multiple fields? I believe your own conscious experience is tied to a single field. It cannot be more than one because theoretically each of those fields could be moved into separate brains.

If this idea is true, then that would mean that the dead could theoretically be brought back to life if their field is once again in a changing state.

Looking forward to your responses :D
Agent Smyth wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:47 am In a physicalist's eyes, the OP makes complete sense. After all, to adherents of physicalism consciousness is simply an electrochemical phenomenon that takes place in the brain. It can't be anything else now can it?
One can always try to describe consciousness in a physical way—but is consciousness / Qualia itself really physical? How can the firings of neurons be translated into pain, color, smell, sound, emotions, etc?

Explaining these subjective attributes with the language of physicalism is different from explaining why these things "can be possible" with the language of physicalism—to me, physicalist viewpoints only allow one to be capable of the latter. We all know that the brain makes consciousness "possible", but we don't yet know how what happens in the brain translates to consciousness. We don't even yet fully know what happens in the brain to begin with.

Here's what I personally believe: I think consciousness is not physical (in a third-person sense where you point at a tree and think "that tree is a physical thing.")
But rather, what it "feels like" or what it "means to be" physical—so more of a first-person sense of "being a physical object yourself". Which in this case, the physical object being the brain and the nervous system.

These perspectives on their own are not physical. They're just the "act of assigning". But what these perspectives get assigned to, what these perspectives attach to, are indeed physical.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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GrayArea
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by GrayArea »

...But it would be those perspectives that ultimately create the concept of the self.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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GrayArea
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by GrayArea »

+ I also believe the physical objects inherently possess their own "perspectives" (sort of a yin-yang relationship where one creates another while also depending on another), but are still not conscious simply because they lack self-awareness of their "perspectives".
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Agent Smyth
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Agent Smyth »

GrayArea wrote: March 31st, 2023, 6:36 pm
Amadeus7 wrote: March 9th, 2023, 10:10 pm I just wanted to share my thoughts on what consciousness may be in hopes of getting feedback on how plausible this idea is.

Short Explanation - Consciousness arises when an electric field changes.

Long Explanation - Our brains are filled with neurons, these neurons fire electrical charges, this causes changes in the electric fields in the brain. When we are alive our brains have electrical activity, when we are dead they don't.

This leads me to believe that our conscious experience is tied to a change in an electric field.

If this is true then how do we experience so many unique subjective experiences? It's simple actually, an electric field can have many shapes based on the surrounding disturbances which gives rise to the wide variety of conscious experiences we have.

Does my conscious experience come from one field or multiple fields? I believe your own conscious experience is tied to a single field. It cannot be more than one because theoretically each of those fields could be moved into separate brains.

If this idea is true, then that would mean that the dead could theoretically be brought back to life if their field is once again in a changing state.

Looking forward to your responses :D
Agent Smyth wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:47 am In a physicalist's eyes, the OP makes complete sense. After all, to adherents of physicalism consciousness is simply an electrochemical phenomenon that takes place in the brain. It can't be anything else now can it?
One can always try to describe consciousness in a physical way—but is consciousness / Qualia itself really physical? How can the firings of neurons be translated into pain, color, smell, sound, emotions, etc?

Explaining these subjective attributes with the language of physicalism is different from explaining why these things "can be possible" with the language of physicalism—to me, physicalist viewpoints only allow one to be capable of the latter. We all know that the brain makes consciousness "possible", but we don't yet know how what happens in the brain translates to consciousness. We don't even yet fully know what happens in the brain to begin with.

Here's what I personally believe: I think consciousness is not physical (in a third-person sense where you point at a tree and think "that tree is a physical thing.")
But rather, what it "feels like" or what it "means to be" physical—so more of a first-person sense of "being a physical object yourself". Which in this case, the physical object being the brain and the nervous system.

These perspectives on their own are not physical. They're just the "act of assigning". But what these perspectives get assigned to, what these perspectives attach to, are indeed physical.
We need to go back to the basics. Get rid of, absit iniuria, all the junk that has accumulated over the years and reboot. Ask ourselves again, the simple question what is consciousness?
Never send a man to do a machine's job. 8)
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GrayArea
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by GrayArea »

Agent Smyth wrote: April 1st, 2023, 1:06 am
GrayArea wrote: March 31st, 2023, 6:36 pm
Amadeus7 wrote: March 9th, 2023, 10:10 pm I just wanted to share my thoughts on what consciousness may be in hopes of getting feedback on how plausible this idea is.

Short Explanation - Consciousness arises when an electric field changes.

Long Explanation - Our brains are filled with neurons, these neurons fire electrical charges, this causes changes in the electric fields in the brain. When we are alive our brains have electrical activity, when we are dead they don't.

This leads me to believe that our conscious experience is tied to a change in an electric field.

If this is true then how do we experience so many unique subjective experiences? It's simple actually, an electric field can have many shapes based on the surrounding disturbances which gives rise to the wide variety of conscious experiences we have.

Does my conscious experience come from one field or multiple fields? I believe your own conscious experience is tied to a single field. It cannot be more than one because theoretically each of those fields could be moved into separate brains.

If this idea is true, then that would mean that the dead could theoretically be brought back to life if their field is once again in a changing state.

Looking forward to your responses :D
Agent Smyth wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:47 am In a physicalist's eyes, the OP makes complete sense. After all, to adherents of physicalism consciousness is simply an electrochemical phenomenon that takes place in the brain. It can't be anything else now can it?
One can always try to describe consciousness in a physical way—but is consciousness / Qualia itself really physical? How can the firings of neurons be translated into pain, color, smell, sound, emotions, etc?

Explaining these subjective attributes with the language of physicalism is different from explaining why these things "can be possible" with the language of physicalism—to me, physicalist viewpoints only allow one to be capable of the latter. We all know that the brain makes consciousness "possible", but we don't yet know how what happens in the brain translates to consciousness. We don't even yet fully know what happens in the brain to begin with.

Here's what I personally believe: I think consciousness is not physical (in a third-person sense where you point at a tree and think "that tree is a physical thing.")
But rather, what it "feels like" or what it "means to be" physical—so more of a first-person sense of "being a physical object yourself". Which in this case, the physical object being the brain and the nervous system.

These perspectives on their own are not physical. They're just the "act of assigning". But what these perspectives get assigned to, what these perspectives attach to, are indeed physical.
We need to go back to the basics. Get rid of, absit iniuria, all the junk that has accumulated over the years and reboot. Ask ourselves again, the simple question what is consciousness?
I've answered my part.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Agent Smyth
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Agent Smyth »

GrayArea wrote: April 1st, 2023, 9:07 am
Agent Smyth wrote: April 1st, 2023, 1:06 am
GrayArea wrote: March 31st, 2023, 6:36 pm
Amadeus7 wrote: March 9th, 2023, 10:10 pm I just wanted to share my thoughts on what consciousness may be in hopes of getting feedback on how plausible this idea is.

Short Explanation - Consciousness arises when an electric field changes.

Long Explanation - Our brains are filled with neurons, these neurons fire electrical charges, this causes changes in the electric fields in the brain. When we are alive our brains have electrical activity, when we are dead they don't.

This leads me to believe that our conscious experience is tied to a change in an electric field.

If this is true then how do we experience so many unique subjective experiences? It's simple actually, an electric field can have many shapes based on the surrounding disturbances which gives rise to the wide variety of conscious experiences we have.

Does my conscious experience come from one field or multiple fields? I believe your own conscious experience is tied to a single field. It cannot be more than one because theoretically each of those fields could be moved into separate brains.

If this idea is true, then that would mean that the dead could theoretically be brought back to life if their field is once again in a changing state.

Looking forward to your responses :D
Agent Smyth wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:47 am In a physicalist's eyes, the OP makes complete sense. After all, to adherents of physicalism consciousness is simply an electrochemical phenomenon that takes place in the brain. It can't be anything else now can it?
One can always try to describe consciousness in a physical way—but is consciousness / Qualia itself really physical? How can the firings of neurons be translated into pain, color, smell, sound, emotions, etc?

Explaining these subjective attributes with the language of physicalism is different from explaining why these things "can be possible" with the language of physicalism—to me, physicalist viewpoints only allow one to be capable of the latter. We all know that the brain makes consciousness "possible", but we don't yet know how what happens in the brain translates to consciousness. We don't even yet fully know what happens in the brain to begin with.

Here's what I personally believe: I think consciousness is not physical (in a third-person sense where you point at a tree and think "that tree is a physical thing.")
But rather, what it "feels like" or what it "means to be" physical—so more of a first-person sense of "being a physical object yourself". Which in this case, the physical object being the brain and the nervous system.

These perspectives on their own are not physical. They're just the "act of assigning". But what these perspectives get assigned to, what these perspectives attach to, are indeed physical.
We need to go back to the basics. Get rid of, absit iniuria, all the junk that has accumulated over the years and reboot. Ask ourselves again, the simple question what is consciousness?
I've answered my part.
Excelente! This is ultimately a question of Cronus, who is, by all accounts, shrouded in the mist of unknowing. The specter of catastrophic error, if you catch me drift, looms nevertheless and that too over some VIP's cephalus. Me, myself, hypothesis non fingo, beyond my ken, for better/worse.
Never send a man to do a machine's job. 8)
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psycho
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by psycho »

Amadeus7 wrote: March 9th, 2023, 10:10 pm I just wanted to share my thoughts on what consciousness may be in hopes of getting feedback on how plausible this idea is.

Short Explanation - Consciousness arises when an electric field changes.

Long Explanation - Our brains are filled with neurons, these neurons fire electrical charges, this causes changes in the electric fields in the brain. When we are alive our brains have electrical activity, when we are dead they don't.

This leads me to believe that our conscious experience is tied to a change in an electric field.

If this is true then how do we experience so many unique subjective experiences? It's simple actually, an electric field can have many shapes based on the surrounding disturbances which gives rise to the wide variety of conscious experiences we have.

Does my conscious experience come from one field or multiple fields? I believe your own conscious experience is tied to a single field. It cannot be more than one because theoretically each of those fields could be moved into separate brains.

If this idea is true, then that would mean that the dead could theoretically be brought back to life if their field is once again in a changing state.

Looking forward to your responses :D
People use the word conscience to refer to different concepts.

Consciousness is the phenomenon that results from the integration of our perceptions with previously acquired information.

Consciousness is to notice particularities of the circumstance in which we occur.

Consciousness is being aware of the antecedents and consequences of our actions or external phenomena.

Consciousness is the state that results from focusing perceptual and analytical attention on some aspect of reality.

Consciousness is what turns on when we wake up every morning.

Consciousness is the "self" at work or the "self" is consciousness at work.

The relationship between electricity and consciousness is not unlike the relationship between electricity and any other aspect of the physiology of living things.

What are the requirements to consider that something can have consciousness? Are there requirements? Anything can have consciousness?

On the other hand, it is not the same to be conscious as to be conscious that one is conscious.
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by psycho »

RJG wrote: March 24th, 2023, 6:55 pm
LuckyR wrote:Okay to translate, your definition of consciousness is similar to what many, if not most would call memory.
Very close. To be more specific -- Consciousness is the recognition (of physical bodily reactions) made possible by memory.

Without memory, there could be no recognition (nothing there to match up with!), and therefore no consciousness. Consciousness relies on memory. No memory = no consciousness.

The process of recognition converts non-conscious physical bodily reactions into conscious experiences via memory.


LuckyR wrote:And your use of reaction is what others might call decision making (or even consciousness).
No, physical bodily reactions are non-conscious events. The process of recognition converts these non-conscious physical bodily reactions into conscious experiences.
Can a person without memory feel pain?

Do you understand that pain is the same as the circumstance that produces the pain?

Pain is a state of consciousness caused by some aggression on the organism that experiences it.

One can have pain without any aggression and suffer organic destruction without any pain. Pain occurs only as part of consciousness.

Pain is not distinguished as information in memory. The pain is distinguished immediately. Our survival depends on it being instantly distinguished.
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by RJG »

psycho wrote:Can a person without memory feel pain?
No. Without memory there cannot be the "knowing" (awareness/consciousness/recognition) of a bodily pain. Although one's physical body can detect pain and react accordingly (in self-survival mode), those without memory can't know or feel the pain.

To put it simply, if one is not conscious (or knowing) of a bodily injury/pain, then one can't feel it.

psycho wrote:The pain is distinguished immediately. Our survival depends on it being instantly distinguished.
To clarify - the physical body auto-reacts/responds according to the applied stimuli. The consciousness (or knowing) of this bodily reaction is not necessary for survival.

Consciousness is just an after-effect. We don’t know what we do, or how our body reacts until after it reacts.

The ONLY thing we can be conscious of are our bodily reactions (sensory/thoughts/feelings). That's it. Nothing more. Period.

Consciousness is always after-the-fact. The knowing of our bodily reactions is always after the bodily reaction, never before. Therefore consciousness has no say-so in any of our bodily actions/reactions (or movements), and therefore has no effect or say-so in our survival.

***********
So contrary to popular indoctrination, we don’t actually consciously move our bodies about, we are only conscious of our bodies (reactively) moving about.
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psycho
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by psycho »

RJG wrote: April 3rd, 2023, 7:08 am
psycho wrote:Can a person without memory feel pain?
No. Without memory there cannot be the "knowing" (awareness/consciousness/recognition) of a bodily pain. Although one's physical body can detect pain and react accordingly (in self-survival mode), those without memory can't know or feel the pain.

To put it simply, if one is not conscious (or knowing) of a bodily injury/pain, then one can't feel it.

psycho wrote:The pain is distinguished immediately. Our survival depends on it being instantly distinguished.
To clarify - the physical body auto-reacts/responds according to the applied stimuli. The consciousness (or knowing) of this bodily reaction is not necessary for survival.

Consciousness is just an after-effect. We don’t know what we do, or how our body reacts until after it reacts.

The ONLY thing we can be conscious of are our bodily reactions (sensory/thoughts/feelings). That's it. Nothing more. Period.

Consciousness is always after-the-fact. The knowing of our bodily reactions is always after the bodily reaction, never before. Therefore consciousness has no say-so in any of our bodily actions/reactions (or movements), and therefore has no effect or say-so in our survival.

***********
So contrary to popular indoctrination, we don’t actually consciously move our bodies about, we are only conscious of our bodies (reactively) moving about.
The problem is not having defined what we consider consciousness.

For me, the conscious state integrates what is perceived in real time (in the form of a network of neural connections) with patterns stored from previous experiences.

Pain only exists if it is perceived. Pain cannot be independent of consciousness. Pain does not result from the interpretation of a memory.

It is one thing to understand and quite another to be aware of something.

One can be aware of what one does not understand.

It is true that one cannot understand without resorting to memory, but it is not true that one cannot notice without memory. If one cannot notice without memory, one would never have been able to create memories. :)

Noticing and understanding are not the same.

When a tooth hurts intensely, you don't understand that the tooth hurts. You notice that the tooth hurts. That pain is not something external to consciousness, which is considered by that consciousness, but a state of consciousness itself.


---

Regarding how something alive behaves, it seems to me that there are reaction systems and agency systems.

Reaction systems execute certain protocols according to some types of stimuli.

Agency in beings with nervous systems results from the production of certain neurotransmitters.
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Barkun »

We need a new word or group of words for specifically the experience-factor of mind experience, not just some pointer through something relative and a 'ness' suffix.

Being conscious is a state of mental well being attained through physical health that allows mind experience to be functional with the universe. It's not what that experience-factor is.
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Sy Borg »

Barkun wrote: April 22nd, 2023, 8:03 am We need a new word or group of words for specifically the experience-factor of mind experience, not just some pointer through something relative and a 'ness' suffix.
Not qualia?
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Barkun »

Sy Borg wrote: April 24th, 2023, 11:51 pm
Barkun wrote: April 22nd, 2023, 8:03 am We need a new word or group of words for specifically the experience-factor of mind experience, not just some pointer through something relative and a 'ness' suffix.
Not qualia?
I think qualia refers to frames or states of the receptive side of mind, not the experience factor. The experience factor would be regarding things like identity, framework, zone, etc.
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Sy Borg »

Barkun wrote: April 25th, 2023, 12:52 pm
Sy Borg wrote: April 24th, 2023, 11:51 pm
Barkun wrote: April 22nd, 2023, 8:03 am We need a new word or group of words for specifically the experience-factor of mind experience, not just some pointer through something relative and a 'ness' suffix.
Not qualia?
I think qualia refers to frames or states of the receptive side of mind, not the experience factor. The experience factor would be regarding things like identity, framework, zone, etc.
I always saw qualia as being the experience factor. The hard problem is basically, "Why, and how, do we experience?".

I would see identity as less basic than qualia. Snails have qualia, but seemingly not much in the way of a sense of identity. I'm not sure what you mean by framework and zone, though.
Barkun
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Re: Consciousness may not be as complex as we may think

Post by Barkun »

Sy Borg wrote: April 25th, 2023, 5:10 pm
Barkun wrote: April 25th, 2023, 12:52 pm
Sy Borg wrote: April 24th, 2023, 11:51 pm
Barkun wrote: April 22nd, 2023, 8:03 am We need a new word or group of words for specifically the experience-factor of mind experience, not just some pointer through something relative and a 'ness' suffix.
Not qualia?
I think qualia refers to frames or states of the receptive side of mind, not the experience factor. The experience factor would be regarding things like identity, framework, zone, etc.
I always saw qualia as being the experience factor. The hard problem is basically, "Why, and how, do we experience?".

I would see identity as less basic than qualia. Snails have qualia, but seemingly not much in the way of a sense of identity. I'm not sure what you mean by framework and zone, though.
I define consciousness as respondance only that leads to awareness but is not awareness and that is a mistake. I see awareness as a facet of mind, and the mental experience, of being aware and alert, is like something. This something has logical framework in my experience, it is a unique identity that may have similar framework to other people's 'something'. It is fitted in a specific position or way in contrast to it's vessel, I called this zone.
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