How could there be options in a deterministic world?

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Bahman
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Bahman »

Ecurb wrote: March 25th, 2023, 4:02 pm
Bahman wrote: March 25th, 2023, 1:08 pm
Ecurb wrote: March 25th, 2023, 11:19 am
Bahman wrote: March 25th, 2023, 8:36 am
I am not talking about the decision made in the past but the decision we make now. Do you believe that options are real when we are making a decision? Do you believe in determinism?
As I've clearly stated, I believe options are real regardless of whether the universe is deterministic. I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand. I used the example of the past tense because options made in the past are clearly "determined", yet the word is still used appropriately.
As I defined determinism in OP there can be only one outcome (one option) in a deterministic world so you cannot possibly have options. Let's, put it this way, there is a system in the state of X and this system changes to the state of Y. X uniquely defines Y in a deterministic world. What happens when there are options: The system is in the state of X and there are at least two possible outcomes (options), let's call them Y and Z. So in a deterministic world there is only one outcome possible which is different from when there are options.
Did you read my post? I clearly stated that although the outcome is destined, "option" is still a meaningful and reasonable word describing the process of choosing by an individual. It describes the mental processes of the chooser. Of course, now I'm merely repeating myself. If you didn't get it the first time, you probably won't get it now. When "opted" is used in the past tense, only one outcome is possible. Yet we still use the word. Are people who use the past tense "opted" irrational idiots? I don't think so.
How all options (options not only one option) could be real if one of them is destined?
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Ranvier
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Ranvier »

Bahman wrote: March 25th, 2023, 4:15 pm Have you ever seen a falling apple stop from falling, pause for while (because it might face an extra option rather than falling), and then fall again?
Inanimate objects don't have many options. Drop a bird instead. Yes, bird may pause for a while, then perhaps decide to land. Does this answer your question better?
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Sculptor1
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ranvier wrote: March 25th, 2023, 2:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:54 pm How do you make a choice?
Do you make choices or is it all deterministic?
Eh?
You make determined choices obviously.
But I was asking HOW he did it, which ought to be reveraling.

Maybe you should try to answer that question too?
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Ranvier
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Ranvier »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 7:14 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 25th, 2023, 2:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:54 pm How do you make a choice?
Do you make choices or is it all deterministic?
Eh?
You make determined choices obviously.
But I was asking HOW he did it, which ought to be reveraling.
You didn't answer my question. Do you make choices at all? What are "determined choices"?
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Ranvier
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Ranvier »

Your answer should begin with "I".
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Sculptor1
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ranvier wrote: March 25th, 2023, 7:30 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 7:14 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 25th, 2023, 2:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:54 pm How do you make a choice?
Do you make choices or is it all deterministic?
Eh?
You make determined choices obviously.
But I was asking HOW he did it, which ought to be reveraling.
You didn't answer my question. Do you make choices at all? What are "determined choices"?
There you see I did answer your question; I make determined choices.

When someone has the courage to answer my question we can move the discussion on.
I make choices all the time. They are assessments of what might be the outcome of action, they involve my predetermined preferences, education, needs, wants, volition.. Each unique situation gives perfectly unique choices and I weigh my need with possibilities.
Sometimes I simply react and reflexively chose. I'll have chocolate!
But whether or not the choice is made with due deliberation or it is made reactively or reflexively at no time do I transgress the laws of cause and effect since when the choice is offered the precedent conditions are set. I cannot change who and what I am at that moment.
There is no place outside reality I can observe and reverse time. My choice is not capricious but based on what and how I am at that moment.
HOW?? How could it be any other way. In what way could it be "free". Free of what exactly? No, the choice would be meaningless if I were able to ignore all these determining factors that have come to bear upon the decision. What good would be any choice that was made without regard to my education and volition? Free from reason, free from what made me who I am?
With each choice a new chain of causality is formed. SOme of these decisions can be momentous. Do I attend university? If so which one? And such decisions can only be determined by other questions such as Can I afford it? What subjects have I already studied? Which course shall I follow and how do previous choices of studied determine which I shall chose. But again to make a freely chosen decision have to include determination of the facts, and consequences.
Even "I'll have chocolate" can lead to "never again", if the chocolate makes me feel sick. Whatever has determined my body's rejection causes the next choice to be different.
value
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by value »

value wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:46 pmThere is no need for an individual to know any information in the cosmos when it would be 'given' to them by a cosmos that fundamentally pre-exists intrinsically relative to the observer. This same argument renders conscious observation - and the cosmos with it - fundamentally meaningless.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:53 pmI understood "fundamentally meaningless"
The rest does not makes sense and was not a response to my post.
Assertion in our discussion: With determinism it is posed that consciousness is a product of an intrinsic existing cosmos that is bound by laws. As a result any 'option' is predetermined.

The issue that I am addressing is the fact that the described situation implies that 'any information' in the cosmos is pre-known to any conscious observer or 'option'.

It implies that consciousness derives its 'meaning' as a product of the information within the intrinsic existing cosmos. That is nonsensical because it implies that the act of observing is applied to the pre-existing information that underlays that act of observing.

It would render consciousness meaningless and that is not justified because one is obligated to explain consciousness.

Conclusion: a proper addressing of the why question of consciousness prohibits the claim that consciousness is a deterministic product of the cosmos, because that would render the act of observing - and the cosmos with it - fundamentally meaningless.
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Sculptor1
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Sculptor1 »

value wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:24 am
value wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:46 pmThere is no need for an individual to know any information in the cosmos when it would be 'given' to them by a cosmos that fundamentally pre-exists intrinsically relative to the observer. This same argument renders conscious observation - and the cosmos with it - fundamentally meaningless.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 25th, 2023, 12:53 pmI understood "fundamentally meaningless"
The rest does not makes sense and was not a response to my post.
Assertion in our discussion: With determinism it is posed that consciousness is a product of an intrinsic existing cosmos that is bound by laws. As a result any 'option' is predetermined.
No. There is no PRE-determination. I am atheist. Only a god can know the future. Maybe this is where we differ.
As individuals we are causal agents, able to reflect. Change is not only possible but determinedly so, both responsive and relevant. The problem would be that if free choice were possible regardless of cause and effect and regardless of antecedent truth.

The issue that I am addressing is the fact that the described situation implies that 'any information' in the cosmos is pre-known to any conscious observer or 'option'.
But that is absurd.
DO you believe in God or something?

It implies that consciousness derives its 'meaning' as a product of the information within the intrinsic existing cosmos. That is nonsensical because it implies that the act of observing is applied to the pre-existing information that underlays that act of observing.
no and no.
What you are saying is not making any sense. It is not even wrong.

It would render consciousness meaningless and that is not justified because one is obligated to explain consciousness.
What is the "it" in this sentence? It is often an indication of loss of reason when an "it" is inserted in lieu of an actual established idea.
So this thing renders consciousness meaningless. Why?
Consciousness is our means of agency. It is the decisive process between thought and action. It lies between the causes of the world and the operation of our nervous system. These causes determine the outcome.
That is my obligation to explain the role of consciousness fulfilled.

Conclusion: a proper addressing of the why question of consciousness prohibits the claim that consciousness is a deterministic product of the cosmos, because that would render the act of observing - and the cosmos with it - fundamentally meaningless.
You seem to be arguing from adverse consequences. It can't be right because you can't figure it out.
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Sculptor1
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Sculptor1 »

There is talk of meaninglessness. By those refusing to answer a simply question."How are choices made?".

If a choice were "free" would we not be flouting the most basic fabric of the universe by being able to ignore cause and effect?
If we could reset the previous moment of time presumably the "free will" would be able to make a different choice? If this is the case then this could only render our choices meaningless, even random.
A choice can only make sense to us and the universe if it is determined by the conditions of the moment, else it would be meaningless and capricious.
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Ranvier
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Ranvier »

Sculptor1

I asked: "Do you make choices or is it all deterministic?"
You wrote: "You make determined choices obviously". I didn't ask how I make a choice but how do you make choices.
You corrected yourself but still didn't answer what are the "determined choices". Perhaps "informed choices" would be better, given your university decision making process. Otherwise, if it were a "determined choice", it would mean that all your research about different universities and everything else is meaningless, as your choice is already "determined" (Destined).
Then you write: "I cannot change who and what I am at that moment". Oh contraire, of course you can. Do you speak the same way in your role as a "father" to your "wife? It would be very strange, unless the marriage is into that kind of thing. This entire thread is quite meaningless, as most of the discussion is about different conceptualization of words. People just talk about different things using same or similar words but everyone has different comprehension of these words. We all might as well write in different languages.
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Ranvier
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

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Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:41 am There is talk of meaninglessness. By those refusing to answer a simply question."How are choices made?".

If a choice were "free" would we not be flouting the most basic fabric of the universe by being able to ignore cause and effect?
If we could reset the previous moment of time presumably the "free will" would be able to make a different choice? If this is the case then this could only render our choices meaningless, even random.
A choice can only make sense to us and the universe if it is determined by the conditions of the moment, else it would be meaningless and capricious.
"How are choices made?" This is one of the most profound questions about "consciousness". You continue to ask this question, "simply", as it's something obvious in your mind, as we all should somehow "know" what "consciousness" actually is. That would be just fine, except what your proposed: "determined choice" doesn't make sense.

"If a choice were "free" would we not be flouting the most basic fabric of the universe by being able to ignore cause and effect?"
How so? How would "free Will" violate cause and effect, when your Will is the "cause"?
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ranvier wrote: March 26th, 2023, 10:21 am
Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:41 am There is talk of meaninglessness. By those refusing to answer a simply question."How are choices made?".

If a choice were "free" would we not be flouting the most basic fabric of the universe by being able to ignore cause and effect?
If we could reset the previous moment of time presumably the "free will" would be able to make a different choice? If this is the case then this could only render our choices meaningless, even random.
A choice can only make sense to us and the universe if it is determined by the conditions of the moment, else it would be meaningless and capricious.
"How are choices made?" This is one of the most profound questions about "consciousness".
No it is not.
Maybe I should re-phrase? How do YOU make a choice?
I mean just in the ordinary day to day sense of the word. You made a choice. What was happening?
You continue to ask this question, "simply", as it's something obvious in your mind, as we all should somehow "know" what "consciousness" actually is. That would be just fine, except what your proposed: "determined choice" doesn't make sense.

"If a choice were "free" would we not be flouting the most basic fabric of the universe by being able to ignore cause and effect?"
How so? How would "free Will" violate cause and effect, when your Will is the "cause"?
If you could have chosen otherwise then none of our choices are valid.
If you have the option of chocolate or strawberry ice-cream, you cannot choses vanilla.
But the truth is that before you have the option your choice is already determined with as much surety as not having vanilla.
If your choice is chocolate then it does not matter how many times you could turn the clock back 5 seconds, your choice will remain chocolate for an infinite number of times. Now tell me, if you turned back the clock what would it mean for your choice to change to strawberry as you freely think you can? Would that not potentially invalidate every single choice you ever made? Surely given the circumstances of the moment chocolate was the choice based on your needs, desire, volition, taste. None of which you have control over; none.
And when you reached adolescence did you chose your sexual orientation? Did you chose to be gay or straight or trans? Do you chose to be born? Did you chose your body, your parents your school.
And when you did start to make your "free" choices - how do you do that, what did you base your conscious choices on?
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by Ranvier »

Sculptor1

I wrote: "How are choices made (Sculptor1)?" This is one of the most profound questions about "consciousness".
Your reply: "No it is not". That's it? You couldn't elaborate?
I find a very interesting pattern in Atheist minds, worth researching.

You: "Maybe I should re-phrase? How do YOU make a choice? I mean just in the ordinary day to day sense of the word. You made a choice. What was happening?"
I make a choice based on [Reason] and my human [reason], in my free Will most of the time the two align but sometimes my human [reason] overtakes my judgement. Pain often affects my [reason] the most.

You: "If you have the option of chocolate or strawberry ice-cream, you cannot choses vanilla.
But the truth is that before you have the option your choice is already determined with as much surety as not having vanilla
".

Again, it's interesting how the atheist mind works...
No, I can choose:
1. To not have any ice cream to maintain my physical fitness
2. I can go out and search for vanilla ice-cream
3. I can have chocolate or strawberry alone
4. I can try both and decide which one I like more
5. I can give in to gluttony and eat both chocolate & strawberry, then even go out and get more of vanilla ice-cream

You: "But the truth is that before you have the option your choice is already determined with as much surety as not having vanilla.
If your choice is chocolate then it does not matter how many times you could turn the clock back 5 seconds, your choice will remain chocolate for an infinite number of times. Now tell me, if you turned back the clock what would it mean for your choice to change to strawberry as you freely think you can? Would that not potentially invalidate every single choice you ever made? Surely given the circumstances of the moment chocolate was the choice based on your needs, desire, volition, taste. None of which you have control over; none
"
.

Given the 5 options I've provided, you have a strange relationship with the "truth" and the rest of your text doesn't make any sense, especially: "None of which you have control over; none".
value
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by value »

value wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:24 amAssertion in our discussion: With determinism it is posed that consciousness is a product of an intrinsic existing cosmos that is bound by laws. As a result any 'option' is predetermined.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:34 amNo. There is no PRE-determination. I am atheist. Only a god can know the future. Maybe this is where we differ.
As individuals we are causal agents, able to reflect. Change is not only possible but determinedly so, both responsive and relevant. The problem would be that if free choice were possible regardless of cause and effect and regardless of antecedent truth.
If an outcome cannot have been other than what it became due to an intrinsic existing cosmos of which consciousness is a deterministic product, then consciousness would fundamentally observe information that would PRE-exist (pre-known) on cosmos-level.

It would render the act of observing meaningless from the perspective of the cosmos.

value wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:24 amThe issue that I am addressing is the fact that the described situation implies that 'any information' in the cosmos is pre-known to any conscious observer or 'option'.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:34 amBut that is absurd.
DO you believe in God or something?
I am not religious and I am also not an atheist which is a religion in my opinion.

If consciousness is a product of an intrinsic existing cosmos then consciousness would be bound by causality within that cosmos and any information that is observed must have PRE-existed (pre-known) relative to consciousness.

value wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:24 amIt implies that consciousness derives its 'meaning' as a product of the information within the intrinsic existing cosmos. That is nonsensical because it implies that the act of observing is applied to the pre-existing information that underlays that act of observing.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:34 amno and no.
What you are saying is not making any sense. It is not even wrong.
1) the cosmos exists intrinsically by laws
2) consciousness is a product of that cosmos and is bound by the same causal laws

In this situation the cosmos existed independently BEFORE consciousness and that means that any information that consciousness could observe must have originated from the cosmos causally.

The described situation is nonsensical and that means that determinism - 'conscious options as a causal product of the cosmos' - cannot be true.

value wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:24 amIt would render consciousness meaningless and that is not justified because one is obligated to explain consciousness.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:34 amWhat is the "it" in this sentence? It is often an indication of loss of reason when an "it" is inserted in lieu of an actual established idea.
So this thing renders consciousness meaningless. Why?
Consciousness is our means of agency. It is the decisive process between thought and action. It lies between the causes of the world and the operation of our nervous system. These causes determine the outcome.
That is my obligation to explain the role of consciousness fulfilled.
'It' refers to the preceding assertion that information that is fundamentally pre-known from the perspective of the cosmos (as causal origin of consciousness) has no reason to be observed.

Determinism would imply that information of the cosmos would produce consciousness causally through laws, to look at that same information. That is absurd.

An analogy would be a fountain that has a conscious eye on top of it as a causal product of that fountain that would then look back at the stream of water from which that eye itself is made in the same time.

value wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:24 amConclusion: a proper addressing of the why question of consciousness prohibits the claim that consciousness is a deterministic product of the cosmos, because that would render the act of observing - and the cosmos with it - fundamentally meaningless.
Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:34 amYou seem to be arguing from adverse consequences. It can't be right because you can't figure it out.
No. The demand to answer the why question of consciousness - to explain its meaningfulness - is justified in my opinion and the preceding reasoning has shown that both consciousness and the cosmos would lose their meaningfulness when consciousness would be a deterministic product of the cosmos.
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Re: How could there be options in a deterministic world?

Post by value »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:41 am There is talk of meaninglessness. By those refusing to answer a simply question."How are choices made?".

If a choice were "free" would we not be flouting the most basic fabric of the universe by being able to ignore cause and effect?
If we could reset the previous moment of time presumably the "free will" would be able to make a different choice? If this is the case then this could only render our choices meaningless, even random.
A choice can only make sense to us and the universe if it is determined by the conditions of the moment, else it would be meaningless and capricious.
In my opinion a choice between options involves a moral reasoning component which depends on the act of valuing. The act of valuing doesn't concern a choice between good and bad but a valuation on behalf of good.

Moral reasoning cannot have an empirical origin and that would justify the consideration that choices are free of deterministic causality.

Meaning, in my opinion, is a priori to the empirical cosmos and it is moral reasoning or 'philosophy' that would fundamentally underlay the world. Consciousness would acquire meaningfulness by performing on behalf of meaning itself and the cosmos acquires meaningfulness through consciousness.
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