To What Extent is the Idea of the 'Soul' Useful, or not, in Philosophical Understanding?

[Sy Borg]

They caught what I think of as "the philosopher's disease", where obviously real phenomena are declared "an illusion".

😆

I think there is a 'disease' with which philosophers can become 'infected'. Its primary symptom involves the fabrication of emotional and arbitrary 'justifications'. Misstating of evidence, especially exaggeration-for-effect, is characteristically symptomatic. This condition is diagnosed when the existence of possibly real phenomena is declared "obvious", "self-evident" or "certain".

There is no known cure.

😉

I see. Based on the above, you completely agree with Dennett and Skinner that consciousness does not exist, that it is merely an illusion. The above also argues that most scientists and philosophers as delusional for thinking that the apparent reality around us is actually real, and this is a mental problem for which there is no cure.

Your inconsistency is showing.

[Belindi]

Consciousness is composed of memory: plus information from the environment: plus orientation forwards in time.

The above definition of consciousness includes living systems and excludes non living systems. Anomalies are AI and viruses which have memories and absorb incoming information but lack orientation forwards in time (otherwise known as intentions or purposes).

[Pattern-chaser]

They caught what I think of as "the philosopher's disease", where obviously real phenomena are declared "an illusion".

I think there is a 'disease' with which philosophers can become 'infected'. Its primary symptom involves the fabrication of emotional and arbitrary 'justifications'. Misstating of evidence, especially exaggeration-for-effect, is characteristically symptomatic. This condition is diagnosed when the non-existence of possibly real phenomena is declared "obvious", "self-evident" or "certain".

There is no known cure.

[I corrected my own typo. My intended meaning wasn't too compromised by it, but I corrected it anyway.]

I see. Based on the above, you completely agree with Dennett and Skinner that consciousness does not exist, that it is merely an illusion. The above also argues that most scientists and philosophers as delusional for thinking that the apparent reality around us is actually real, and this is a mental problem for which there is no cure.

Your inconsistency is showing.

My "inconsistency"? Hmm. I can't see it, but I suppose that's par for the course with such things. I hope your observation is incorrect...



Straw-man #1: "Based on the above, you completely agree with Dennett and Skinner that consciousness does not exist, that it is merely an illusion."
Straw-man #2: "most scientists and philosophers [are] delusional for thinking that the apparent reality around us is actually real".

I assert my opinion that both of the above straw-men are incorrect. I also assert my opinion, which I hope is correct, that I have not said either of those two things. What makes you think that I did, other than your wish to 'win' this exchange?

[Sy Borg]

Seriously? Sure, you can 'win" if you want it enough to bother thinking in those terms. Whatever allows the thread back on track.

I have already made clear my disdain for the clichéd overuse of the word "illusion" many times. No one wants to read the same recycled debate.

[JackDaydream]

Consciousness is composed of memory: plus information from the environment: plus orientation forwards in time.

The above definition of consciousness includes living systems and excludes non living systems. Anomalies are AI and viruses which have memories and absorb incoming information but lack orientation forwards in time (otherwise known as intentions or purposes).

Memory does seem central to living beings and the nature of consciousness. A1 has memory but no sense of narrative identity and this may be connected to not having a childhood or life events, leading to self-awareness. Viruses are more like parasites rather than living forms.

The idea of memory in nature is also expressed in Rupert Sheldrake's idea of morphic resonance which is about pattern duplication and energy fields. This is consistent with quantum physicists' understanding of mind and matter.

The particular bearing which it has on understanding consciousness and the concept of the 'soul' is a different and more fluid understanding of the mind and matter spectrum, especially in relation to thinking about energy fields.

Western philosophy is still dominated by an understanding of mind as contained within a body. Materialism does not destroy this picture but simply reduces it to the body and the brain as the primary factor. Eastern philosophy, especially some perspectives in Buddhist metaphysics, has a far more fluid understanding of the nature of the physical and nonphysical aspects of experience. In particular, there is the idea of the subtle body which incorporates a more dynamic view of the energetic nature of consciousness, with fields of awarenes, as expressed in the chakras. This is also captured in the Chinese system of meridians..If 'soul' is considered in relation to the more subtle understanding of mind and body relationship, it is less of an entity and more of a lifeforce.

[JackDaydream]

It does seem that there is a lot in common amongst individuals and this may be due to the basic aspects of what a human being is. In some ways, each person is unique and part of the collective blueprint of being a human being. Attachment to other people, material objects, one's own body and to anything is problematic as nothing is permanent.

The commonality is, in part, being human, but it's mostly just natural variation. Some people will be more alike than others and some, by small chance, will be remarkably alike. I worked in personnel for a long time and met many, many people. Every now and then you would run into someone who would be remarkably like someone you know, to the point where it can be difficult at first not to treat them like that other person.

Out of eight billion, chances are that we all have some mental "clones" somewhere.

One idea which I have come across is the idea that homosexuality and transsexualism occur because people have experienced of different lives in both genders. That would mean that the soul itself is not any specific gender but has trace memories from previous lives, based on attachments in a former lifetime. Some have argued that ties between individuals go back to previous lifetimes at the level of soul connections. I have met people who view some of their relationships, especially ones in the family, in such a way. If I think about my own family experience, I would probably say that it would probably be my mother who I would see as the one who stands out in that way, but this may be down to me being an only child. It is hard to know how much is flights of fantasy.

How would that work? Do we exist in a dimension that we didn't know existed? It's speculative. I would not even bet my car on that, let alone my life, and I drive an ancient Corolla from the 20th century.

I know what you mean about resemblances because I notice them too. However, it is hard to know to what extent they are real or about our own associations. For example, I know that when I have made comparisons between people in conversation another person may see it differently. This is because they are interpretations in one's inner vision and interpretations. Also, even if a person may appear in many ways to have a similar life and nature to another the inner consciousness of the two may be very different.

True, when I was stuck by the similarity between people, some agreed and some didn't. I have had plenty of people say I look like someone else.

Still, perceptual variations aside, logic makes clear that, with eight billion people, there will be strong commonalities, especially with the more usual personality types (eg. ESFJ). At times I have had some quirky thoughts but a web search finds that thousands of other have had the same thought, even sometimes with close to the same wording.

Somewhere out there, you will have some quasi-doppelgangers. Further, if you took every wolf in the world and examined its personality traits, there would be a wolf that is the most similar to you, and the least similar. The Jack of the pack, you might say

Further, if you take all of the space rock forming in the early solar system, one of them would be most like you. Consider the properties of those rocks. There will be the dominant entities, plus small ones caught in the big ones' gravity. They will consume, destroy, capture or eject any smaller object that nears it. Some rocks will always be in clusters while others will be out on the fringes, interacting rarely. Some will acts as catalysts between other rocks, and so on. These dynamics apply in almost all variable groups of things.

As I know you are interested in the idea of doppelganger I found an interesting news story today. Two individuals, one who clearly resembles Bono and the other as The Edge. They also perform U2's music publically as buskers and people are convinced that they are the real band members. I also know that Ed Sheeran has a look alike who gets approached for autographs all the time.

Each of us may have a doppelganger but this person is probably not famous. I often have people who think that I am someone else or have met me before. I often wonder if the person who I am compared to is one or many various individuals. I know that I have been called Michael several times in Bedford and people have often thought in London, that they had met me in other hospitals too. It would be interesting to meet the doppelgangers in order to see and think about the parallels and comparisons, and whether the connections go beyond the physical ones.

[Sy Borg]

The commonality is, in part, being human, but it's mostly just natural variation. Some people will be more alike than others and some, by small chance, will be remarkably alike. I worked in personnel for a long time and met many, many people. Every now and then you would run into someone who would be remarkably like someone you know, to the point where it can be difficult at first not to treat them like that other person.

Out of eight billion, chances are that we all have some mental "clones" somewhere.



How would that work? Do we exist in a dimension that we didn't know existed? It's speculative. I would not even bet my car on that, let alone my life, and I drive an ancient Corolla from the 20th century.

I know what you mean about resemblances because I notice them too. However, it is hard to know to what extent they are real or about our own associations. For example, I know that when I have made comparisons between people in conversation another person may see it differently. This is because they are interpretations in one's inner vision and interpretations. Also, even if a person may appear in many ways to have a similar life and nature to another the inner consciousness of the two may be very different.

True, when I was stuck by the similarity between people, some agreed and some didn't. I have had plenty of people say I look like someone else.

Still, perceptual variations aside, logic makes clear that, with eight billion people, there will be strong commonalities, especially with the more usual personality types (eg. ESFJ). At times I have had some quirky thoughts but a web search finds that thousands of other have had the same thought, even sometimes with close to the same wording.

Somewhere out there, you will have some quasi-doppelgangers. Further, if you took every wolf in the world and examined its personality traits, there would be a wolf that is the most similar to you, and the least similar. The Jack of the pack, you might say :)

Further, if you take all of the space rock forming in the early solar system, one of them would be most like you. Consider the properties of those rocks. There will be the dominant entities, plus small ones caught in the big ones' gravity. They will consume, destroy, capture or eject any smaller object that nears it. Some rocks will always be in clusters while others will be out on the fringes, interacting rarely. Some will acts as catalysts between other rocks, and so on. These dynamics apply in almost all variable groups of things.

As I know you are interested in the idea of doppelganger I found an interesting news story today. Two individuals, one who clearly resembles Bono and the other as The Edge. They also perform U2's music publicly as buskers and people are convinced that they are the real band members. I also know that Ed Sheeran has a look alike who gets approached for autographs all the time.

Each of us may have a doppelganger but this person is probably not famous. I often have people who think that I am someone else or have met me before. I often wonder if the person who I am compared to is one or many various individuals. I know that I have been called Michael several times in Bedford and people have often thought in London, that they had met me in other hospitals too. It would be interesting to meet the doppelgangers in order to see and think about the parallels and comparisons, and whether the connections go beyond the physical ones.

Yes, the similarities may be physical, mental or both to some extent. In another time, quasi-doppelgangers of different generations would have been said to be reincarnations. Yet, only the tiniest percentage of people have claimed to remember their last lives. Thus, the death of their prior incarnation is effectively final. The continuation is not of the individual consciousness (which goes to sleep), but the type of consciousness.

As for the children studied by Ian Stephenson, that's tricky because he was apparently highly rigorous. He was aware that the controversial nature of his work meant that even the slightest shoddiness would arouse suspicion. The question would still remain, why them and not others? Further, does it make any difference? The children soon lose those apparent precarnation memories, so they might as well be a completely new individual, and the old one is gone.

Still, the potential metaphysical implications of Stephenson's work in India are awesome. Maybe there is some other dimension, after all? But does it do us any good if we are recycled unaware? That leads us to the Buddhist and Hindu idea of escaping the cycle of death and rebirth by right thoughts and actions.

Presumably, once one escapes the cycle one goes to the aforesaid other dimension. It's supposed to be terrific there, but everyone is so damn holy (which is why they are there) that they spend all their time selflessly trying to help us lesser souls to join them. That seems rather boring to me, so I'm certainly not ready for any such ascension :)

[JackDaydream]

I know what you mean about resemblances because I notice them too. However, it is hard to know to what extent they are real or about our own associations. For example, I know that when I have made comparisons between people in conversation another person may see it differently. This is because they are interpretations in one's inner vision and interpretations. Also, even if a person may appear in many ways to have a similar life and nature to another the inner consciousness of the two may be very different.

True, when I was stuck by the similarity between people, some agreed and some didn't. I have had plenty of people say I look like someone else.

Still, perceptual variations aside, logic makes clear that, with eight billion people, there will be strong commonalities, especially with the more usual personality types (eg. ESFJ). At times I have had some quirky thoughts but a web search finds that thousands of other have had the same thought, even sometimes with close to the same wording.

Somewhere out there, you will have some quasi-doppelgangers. Further, if you took every wolf in the world and examined its personality traits, there would be a wolf that is the most similar to you, and the least similar. The Jack of the pack, you might say

Further, if you take all of the space rock forming in the early solar system, one of them would be most like you. Consider the properties of those rocks. There will be the dominant entities, plus small ones caught in the big ones' gravity. They will consume, destroy, capture or eject any smaller object that nears it. Some rocks will always be in clusters while others will be out on the fringes, interacting rarely. Some will acts as catalysts between other rocks, and so on. These dynamics apply in almost all variable groups of things.

As I know you are interested in the idea of doppelganger I found an interesting news story today. Two individuals, one who clearly resembles Bono and the other as The Edge. They also perform U2's music publicly as buskers and people are convinced that they are the real band members. I also know that Ed Sheeran has a look alike who gets approached for autographs all the time.

Each of us may have a doppelganger but this person is probably not famous. I often have people who think that I am someone else or have met me before. I often wonder if the person who I am compared to is one or many various individuals. I know that I have been called Michael several times in Bedford and people have often thought in London, that they had met me in other hospitals too. It would be interesting to meet the doppelgangers in order to see and think about the parallels and comparisons, and whether the connections go beyond the physical ones.

Yes, the similarities may be physical, mental or both to some extent. In another time, quasi-doppelgangers of different generations would have been said to be reincarnations. Yet, only the tiniest percentage of people have claimed to remember their last lives. Thus, the death of their prior incarnation is effectively final. The continuation is not of the individual consciousness (which goes to sleep), but the type of consciousness.

As for the children studied by Ian Stephenson, that's tricky because he was apparently highly rigorous. He was aware that the controversial nature of his work meant that even the slightest shoddiness would arouse suspicion. The question would still remain, why them and not others? Further, does it make any difference? The children soon lose those apparent precarnation memories, so they might as well be a completely new individual, and the old one is gone.

Still, the potential metaphysical implications of Stephenson's work in India are awesome. Maybe there is some other dimension, after all? But does it do us any good if we are recycled unaware? That leads us to the Buddhist and Hindu idea of escaping the cycle of death and rebirth by right thoughts and actions.

Presumably, once one escapes the cycle one goes to the aforesaid other dimension. It's supposed to be terrific there, but everyone is so damn holy (which is why they are there) that they spend all their time selflessly trying to help us lesser souls to join them. That seems rather boring to me, so I'm certainly not ready for any such ascension

Ì find it hard to know how much issues of inner reality is symbolic or literal, especially in the realm of reincarnation and unusual experiences. That is probably why I keep reading many books and creating such threads. I get to the point where I think are all the strange connections symbolic and, then, at another time begin to think is it something more.

Getting back to doppelgangers, especially appearance it does involves the issue of how much is about perception itself? One experience which is more about extrasensory perception and premonitions is that on many occasions I have been out in the street and think I see someone I know and when I get close I discover that it is not that person but a short while later on see the person who I mistook the person for. I am not sure if it is pure coincidence but it has happened on many occasions and it is probably best described as synchronicities. It may be a process of tuning into patterns as reflections, like aspects of a hologram.

With reincarnation it is hard to know how linear connections occur in linear time. It may be that we are all composite parts within space and time relationships. Perhaps, we are all one soul system. One idea within theosophy is that apart from souls being reborn the various kingdoms evolve. The mineral kingdom becomes the next plant one, which in turn becomes the animal world and that becomes the human kingdom, which, evolves into the spiritual kingdom. It involves mutations at the 'soul' level. But, I do realise it is possible to get carried away and that it may be more of a symbolic understanding of the cycles and processes of evolution.

[Sy Borg]

True, when I was stuck by the similarity between people, some agreed and some didn't. I have had plenty of people say I look like someone else.

Still, perceptual variations aside, logic makes clear that, with eight billion people, there will be strong commonalities, especially with the more usual personality types (eg. ESFJ). At times I have had some quirky thoughts but a web search finds that thousands of other have had the same thought, even sometimes with close to the same wording.

Somewhere out there, you will have some quasi-doppelgangers. Further, if you took every wolf in the world and examined its personality traits, there would be a wolf that is the most similar to you, and the least similar. The Jack of the pack, you might say :)

Further, if you take all of the space rock forming in the early solar system, one of them would be most like you. Consider the properties of those rocks. There will be the dominant entities, plus small ones caught in the big ones' gravity. They will consume, destroy, capture or eject any smaller object that nears it. Some rocks will always be in clusters while others will be out on the fringes, interacting rarely. Some will acts as catalysts between other rocks, and so on. These dynamics apply in almost all variable groups of things.

As I know you are interested in the idea of doppelganger I found an interesting news story today. Two individuals, one who clearly resembles Bono and the other as The Edge. They also perform U2's music publicly as buskers and people are convinced that they are the real band members. I also know that Ed Sheeran has a look alike who gets approached for autographs all the time.

Each of us may have a doppelganger but this person is probably not famous. I often have people who think that I am someone else or have met me before. I often wonder if the person who I am compared to is one or many various individuals. I know that I have been called Michael several times in Bedford and people have often thought in London, that they had met me in other hospitals too. It would be interesting to meet the doppelgangers in order to see and think about the parallels and comparisons, and whether the connections go beyond the physical ones.

Yes, the similarities may be physical, mental or both to some extent. In another time, quasi-doppelgangers of different generations would have been said to be reincarnations. Yet, only the tiniest percentage of people have claimed to remember their last lives. Thus, the death of their prior incarnation is effectively final. The continuation is not of the individual consciousness (which goes to sleep), but the type of consciousness.

As for the children studied by Ian Stephenson, that's tricky because he was apparently highly rigorous. He was aware that the controversial nature of his work meant that even the slightest shoddiness would arouse suspicion. The question would still remain, why them and not others? Further, does it make any difference? The children soon lose those apparent precarnation memories, so they might as well be a completely new individual, and the old one is gone.

Still, the potential metaphysical implications of Stephenson's work in India are awesome. Maybe there is some other dimension, after all? But does it do us any good if we are recycled unaware? That leads us to the Buddhist and Hindu idea of escaping the cycle of death and rebirth by right thoughts and actions.

Presumably, once one escapes the cycle one goes to the aforesaid other dimension. It's supposed to be terrific there, but everyone is so damn holy (which is why they are there) that they spend all their time selflessly trying to help us lesser souls to join them. That seems rather boring to me, so I'm certainly not ready for any such ascension :)

Ì find it hard to know how much issues of inner reality is symbolic or literal, especially in the realm of reincarnation and unusual experiences. That is probably why I keep reading many books and creating such threads. I get to the point where I think are all the strange connections symbolic and, then, at another time begin to think is it something more.

Getting back to doppelgangers, especially appearance it does involves the issue of how much is about perception itself? One experience which is more about extrasensory perception and premonitions is that on many occasions I have been out in the street and think I see someone I know and when I get close I discover that it is not that person but a short while later on see the person who I mistook the person for. I am not sure if it is pure coincidence but it has happened on many occasions and it is probably best described as synchronicities. It may be a process of tuning into patterns as reflections, like aspects of a hologram.

With reincarnation it is hard to know how linear connections occur in linear time. It may be that we are all composite parts within space and time relationships. Perhaps, we are all one soul system. One idea within theosophy is that apart from souls being reborn the various kingdoms evolve. The mineral kingdom becomes the next plant one, which in turn becomes the animal world and that becomes the human kingdom, which, evolves into the spiritual kingdom. It involves mutations at the 'soul' level. But, I do realise it is possible to get carried away and that it may be more of a symbolic understanding of the cycles and processes of evolution.

Yes, a lot of metaphorical content of the ancients has been taken literally.

I always come back to Gunnery Sgt Emery from Full Metal Jacket saying, " Marines die. That's what we're here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever and that means you live forever". This notion is probably not far from what some of the ancients meant. Imagine someone from two thousand years in the future seeing that quote and believing that US Marines were truly immortal beings.

It's true that some might see a doppelganger between people while others see more differences. It's subjective. Still, not wanting to dismiss the importance of morphology (which I think is an underestimated aspect of consciousness), but I'm mostly interested in the roles entities play in relation to others. That is where the repetition lies. A dominant dies, another replaces him or her. Subordinates die and are replaced. Catalysts, destroyers, healers, insiders, fringe dwellers, exiles - all are replaced like employees in a company, or the ship of Theseus.

Theosophy is as speculative AF but kudos to any line of thought that gives consideration to the changing relationships between geology and the domains of biology, which I think are underestimated.

Once the Earth's surface was mostly lava and basalt. Gradually, the rocks complexified chemically until it reached a level of dynamism that biology emerged. Biology complexified to become intelligent, and now and it is increasingly imbuing geology (silicon) with its intelligence. In time, silicon may return the favour.

[Belindi]

Quite often 'soul' is used synonymously with emotional health. This usage is good because when an idea is personified, e.g. emotional health personified as soul, then the idea may be more easily addressed and made friends with as if it were a second person.

However my claim is about therapy not ontology.

[JackDaydream]

The concept of soul for thinking about emotional wellbeing is very important, because it is about the essential basis of human functioning and motivation in most aspects of life. This is particularly apparent in humanistic and transpersonal approaches to therapy. It goes back to the perspective of Maslow and Thomas Moore's idea of caring for the soul. Moore incorporates the notion of the 'dark night of the soul', which was developed by St John of the Cross. However, while this original usage of the term was within the context of Christian mysticism, the transpersonal approach of Moore is not dependent on any specific religious or metaphysical beliefs. The idea of the 'dark night' can be useful for thinking and working with depression and despair and caring for the soul as being about understanding, developing and expressing aspects of one's inner life as a basis for emotional and psychological wellbeing.

[JackDaydream]

As I know you are interested in the idea of doppelganger I found an interesting news story today. Two individuals, one who clearly resembles Bono and the other as The Edge. They also perform U2's music publicly as buskers and people are convinced that they are the real band members. I also know that Ed Sheeran has a look alike who gets approached for autographs all the time.

Each of us may have a doppelganger but this person is probably not famous. I often have people who think that I am someone else or have met me before. I often wonder if the person who I am compared to is one or many various individuals. I know that I have been called Michael several times in Bedford and people have often thought in London, that they had met me in other hospitals too. It would be interesting to meet the doppelgangers in order to see and think about the parallels and comparisons, and whether the connections go beyond the physical ones.

Yes, the similarities may be physical, mental or both to some extent. In another time, quasi-doppelgangers of different generations would have been said to be reincarnations. Yet, only the tiniest percentage of people have claimed to remember their last lives. Thus, the death of their prior incarnation is effectively final. The continuation is not of the individual consciousness (which goes to sleep), but the type of consciousness.

As for the children studied by Ian Stephenson, that's tricky because he was apparently highly rigorous. He was aware that the controversial nature of his work meant that even the slightest shoddiness would arouse suspicion. The question would still remain, why them and not others? Further, does it make any difference? The children soon lose those apparent precarnation memories, so they might as well be a completely new individual, and the old one is gone.

Still, the potential metaphysical implications of Stephenson's work in India are awesome. Maybe there is some other dimension, after all? But does it do us any good if we are recycled unaware? That leads us to the Buddhist and Hindu idea of escaping the cycle of death and rebirth by right thoughts and actions.

Presumably, once one escapes the cycle one goes to the aforesaid other dimension. It's supposed to be terrific there, but everyone is so damn holy (which is why they are there) that they spend all their time selflessly trying to help us lesser souls to join them. That seems rather boring to me, so I'm certainly not ready for any such ascension

Ì find it hard to know how much issues of inner reality is symbolic or literal, especially in the realm of reincarnation and unusual experiences. That is probably why I keep reading many books and creating such threads. I get to the point where I think are all the strange connections symbolic and, then, at another time begin to think is it something more.

Getting back to doppelgangers, especially appearance it does involves the issue of how much is about perception itself? One experience which is more about extrasensory perception and premonitions is that on many occasions I have been out in the street and think I see someone I know and when I get close I discover that it is not that person but a short while later on see the person who I mistook the person for. I am not sure if it is pure coincidence but it has happened on many occasions and it is probably best described as synchronicities. It may be a process of tuning into patterns as reflections, like aspects of a hologram.

With reincarnation it is hard to know how linear connections occur in linear time. It may be that we are all composite parts within space and time relationships. Perhaps, we are all one soul system. One idea within theosophy is that apart from souls being reborn the various kingdoms evolve. The mineral kingdom becomes the next plant one, which in turn becomes the animal world and that becomes the human kingdom, which, evolves into the spiritual kingdom. It involves mutations at the 'soul' level. But, I do realise it is possible to get carried away and that it may be more of a symbolic understanding of the cycles and processes of evolution.

Yes, a lot of metaphorical content of the ancients has been taken literally.

I always come back to Gunnery Sgt Emery from Full Metal Jacket saying, " Marines die. That's what we're here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever and that means you live forever". This notion is probably not far from what some of the ancients meant. Imagine someone from two thousand years in the future seeing that quote and believing that US Marines were truly immortal beings.

It's true that some might see a doppelganger between people while others see more differences. It's subjective. Still, not wanting to dismiss the importance of morphology (which I think is an underestimated aspect of consciousness), but I'm mostly interested in the roles entities play in relation to others. That is where the repetition lies. A dominant dies, another replaces him or her. Subordinates die and are replaced. Catalysts, destroyers, healers, insiders, fringe dwellers, exiles - all are replaced like employees in a company, or the ship of Theseus.

Theosophy is as speculative AF but kudos to any line of thought that gives consideration to the changing relationships between geology and the domains of biology, which I think are underestimated.

Once the Earth's surface was mostly lava and basalt. Gradually, the rocks complexified chemically until it reached a level of dynamism that biology emerged. Biology complexified to become intelligent, and now and it is increasingly imbuing geology (silicon) with its intelligence. In time, silicon may return the favour.

It is possible to get really confused in reading the ancient texts too literally, just as it is with reading 'The Bible' too literally. It may be especially hard with texts, such as those in Hinduism, which are translated from Vedic. In thinking about Christianity, I found reading some Gnostic Gospels particularly helpful for thinking about the teachings of Jesus more symbolically, although, of course, Gnosticism was suppressed as heresy. The teaching of the immortal soul was definitely a way of trying to encourage people to endure hardship and suffering. The same can be said of Hindu ideas of rebirth and maintaining the caste system.

With theosophy, there is such a mixture of ideas from the West and the East. Rather than in comparative religion, which looks for textual interpretations there may have been a jumbling of the various concretisms of many traditions. Also, some of the teachings, including those of Alice Bailey and Madame Blavatsky, have their authority on the basis of 'channellings' from invisible Masters. This applies to a number of esoteric writers, like Edgar Cayce. It does raise the question of the 'soul' and where it relates to the subconscious and collective unconscious. Of course, it is also connects to the creative imagination and goes back to thinkers like WB Yeats, William Blake and Swedenborg.

There is the entire realm of the creative arts, with myth and transformation, which may be seen as soul experience in this life, rather than about metaphysics. It may be philosophy with its rigour for demystification which has turned the thinking about mind, soul and spirit into a question of metaphysics.

[Pattern-chaser]

Whatever allows the thread back on track. No one wants to read the same recycled debate.

So be it.

[JackDaydream]

Whatever allows the thread back on track. No one wants to read the same recycled debate.

So be it.

How do you see Dennett's perspective of the illusion of consciousness to the question of the idea of the usefulness of the idea of the soul? There is the obvious link between the nature of consciousness and do you think that the idea of the soul furthers an understanding of this?

[Pattern-chaser]

How do you see Dennett's perspective of the illusion of consciousness to the question of the idea of the usefulness of the idea of the soul? There is the obvious link between the nature of consciousness and do you think that the idea of the soul furthers an understanding of this?

Like many philosophers, I am insufficiently clear on what consciousness *is*, to start making deductions about whether it might be an "illusion". In a BBC headline, Dennett's perspective is described as "the brain's 'user illusion' of itself". That seems to me to be a worthwhile speculative perspective, but only one of (very) many.

I find the concept of 'soul' to be a useful one, but I see no obvious (direct) connection to consciousness.