Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Sy Borg]

I've just come out of hospital again due to bowel problems. Sun morning it was so bad I was moaning like an sick cow and completely unable to function and we had to get an ambulance. Third time. They' operate but it's apparently a big operation ad a bit of last resort.

Aside from being embarrassing, ideally, I should be able to use philosophical ideas to deal with agony better. You hear stories like that of a sick fakir who was writhing in pain, but still smiling and being personable.

I was not smiling or personable. I tried to being up stoicism but the ideas were like ants trying to bring down an elephant. I tried breath control but could not keep it up.

How do you deal with ongoing, persistent agony that drags on days and days, unrelenting?

Please, don't waste words on standard well wishes. I'll take them as givens. We all know the drum, Just ideas and philosophy. Thanks.

[Lagayascienza]

Sy Borg. I noticed yor absence.

Trying to do anything worthwhile including (perhaps especially) philosophy through a veil of pain, is nigh on impossible. Pain killing drugs help a bit. But over-the-counter- stuff is pretty much useless fo severe, ongoing, pain. Opiates are stronger. As well as blocking pain they change the way we experience it. So, they help. But they have some dwon-sides. They bomb ou out, you need a prescription, they won't address the underlying cause of the pain and you can get hooked on them.

So what does that leave us with? I guess the only other thing is mind control through meditation. But with severe pain, it can be impossible to focus on anything but the pain.

So, all you can do is hope it settles down again. If it doesn't, then the only solution is to address the underlyng cause. If that means an operation then maybe you don't have much choice.

I wish I could offer more.

[Lagayascienza]

One other thing I forgot to mention is sleep. It gives your body time to deal with what's causing the pain. Some strong sleep medication might help, and sleep would give you some time out from the pain.

[Lagayascienza]

Sorry I couldn't offer anything philosophical. Philosophy requires focus and clarity of thought. There is one mind altering technique you could try which involves separating your "self" from the pain. It helps me with ongoing moderate pain. But with severe, acute pain, like I've had with several bouts of kidney stones, I just couldn't do it. A stronger mind than mine might be able to do it, but I had to use opiates.

[JackDaydream]

I've just come out of hospital again due to bowel problems. Sun morning it was so bad I was moaning like an sick cow and completely unable to function and we had to get an ambulance. Third time. They' operate but it's apparently a big operation ad a bit of last resort.

Aside from being embarrassing, ideally, I should be able to use philosophical ideas to deal with agony better. You hear stories like that of a sick fakir who was writhing in pain, but still smiling and being personable.

I was not smiling or personable. I tried to being up stoicism but the ideas were like ants trying to bring down an elephant. I tried breath control but could not keep it up.

How do you deal with ongoing, persistent agony that drags on days and days, unrelenting?

Please, don't waste words on standard well wishes. I'll take them as givens. We all know the drum, Just ideas and philosophy. Thanks.

The problem of persistent agony may be the raw existential material of philosophy as it involves living on a knife-edge. It can involve the whole spectrum of physical, emotional and mental suffering. I can empathise with the problem, although on a slightly different way. That is in the form of constant stress and, currently this has been connected with ongoing housing difficulties. I also found out a couple of weeks ago that there may be a repossession by the owner. It took me months to find this accommodation when the last shared housing was repossessed. I have been agonising so much...

The question is where does all this agony take us philosophically? It is hard not to become overtaken by it to the point of feeling trapped. Some people beat themselves up, thinking what have I done to deserve this pain? I am inclined to view a certain amount of wallowing in self- pity as a slightly better than a guilt response, as it self-pity may be protective against the black hole of despair. The agony which people experience may be 'the dark night of the soul', which may, or may not, bring transformation. If nothing else, it may bring a human being back to the essentials of what truly matters, because agony may push out so much of the superficial aspects of life as being redundant, unnecessary baggage.

[Sy Borg]

Thanks Lagaya,after watching Requiem for a Dream's smack withdrawals scene, I would be scared to take any opioid. My gut seemed to give me some similar issues, but I thankfully saw no monstrous upside-down children walking on the ceiling :)

You are right, though. My brain simply stopped working. Philosophy failed me, in that my mental constructs were not deeply embedded enough; superficial. Hmm no, I failed philosophy.

There are people who achieve dominance of mind over body, such as he fakir example above or "ice man" Wim Hof. Soldiers pushing through nightmare conditions. Doctors and nurses working insane hours in wartime under extreme pressure. People who are tortured who refuse to crack. Athletes pushing through the pain barrier ... heavyweight champ, Olexsandr Usyk claimed that pain was weakness leaving the body, which is an interesting perspective. Certainly a good one for gruelling training.

I have long felt that, in this life, if you don't inflict pain and suffering on yourself - or at least deny yourself pleasures - then life will do it to you, and it will be out of your control and far, far worse. Exercise, diets, etc.

The two elements that seem to be in common with the above-listed people are conditioning and willpower - with willpower being the denial of comfort, resulting in toughening up. Conditioning of the body and the mind to achieve greater toughness and resilience.

Oh, and yes 100%, the anti-nauseants they gave me helped to some extent. It's reached the point where I either work out how to manage this with diet and lifestyle, or I'll be cut from @rsehole to breakfast and back again, as they poke and slosh around, searching for a polyp that causes occasional intussusception amongst the mess of a small intestine. Difficult, even with MRI scans. It doesn't help that previous scarring will prevent keyhole surgery.

As for sleep ... at hospital I ended up asking them to take out the cannula because they stuck it in the crook of my arm, resulting in the beeping of an occlusion error every time I dropped off. I became very experienced at resetting that %$$# drip machine - sometimes up to fifteen times and hour. Things looked up after it was removed.

Until today I have been lying around almost all the time, aside from the 8 -10 hot showers I'm having per day ATM because it seems to be the best circuitbreaker when the nausea and chills are too nasty. It's more wasteful than my usual, but in the case, screw it :) And I've never felt cleaner!

[Sy Borg]

I've just come out of hospital again due to bowel problems. Sun morning it was so bad I was moaning like an sick cow and completely unable to function and we had to get an ambulance. Third time. They' operate but it's apparently a big operation ad a bit of last resort.

Aside from being embarrassing, ideally, I should be able to use philosophical ideas to deal with agony better. You hear stories like that of a sick fakir who was writhing in pain, but still smiling and being personable.

I was not smiling or personable. I tried to being up stoicism but the ideas were like ants trying to bring down an elephant. I tried breath control but could not keep it up.

How do you deal with ongoing, persistent agony that drags on days and days, unrelenting?

Please, don't waste words on standard well wishes. I'll take them as givens. We all know the drum, Just ideas and philosophy. Thanks.

The problem of persistent agony may be the raw existential material of philosophy as it involves living on a knife-edge. It can involve the whole spectrum of physical, emotional and mental suffering. I can empathise with the problem, although on a slightly different way. That is in the form of constant stress and, currently this has been connected with ongoing housing difficulties. I also found out a couple of weeks ago that there may be a repossession by the owner. It took me months to find this accommodation when the last shared housing was repossessed. I have been agonising so much...

The question is where does all this agony take us philosophically? It is hard not to become overtaken by it to the point of feeling trapped. Some people beat themselves up, thinking what have I done to deserve this pain? I am inclined to view a certain amount of wallowing in self- pity as a slightly better than a guilt response, as it self-pity may be protective against the black hole of despair. The agony which people experience may be 'the dark night of the soul', which may, or may not, bring transformation. If nothing else, it may bring a human being back to the essentials of what truly matters, because agony may push out so much of the superficial aspects of life as being redundant, unnecessary baggage.

Yes, mental anguish is just as bad, sometimes worse. Mental pain probably kills more than physical pain does.

Housing in Australia is a disaster ATM. I hear it's the same in a number of western countries, eg. Canada. The government massively increased migrant intakes at a time of systemic housing undersupply. There are some key points here.
1. High immigration increases GDP - it looks good on paper, and very quotable by friendly media.
2. High immigration reduces GDP per capita - the nation is wealthier while the people struggle
3. It is not a government's job to save the wretched of this world, it is to represent its own people's interests, including those of poor locals who were basically thrown under the bus by this government.

It's now hard for even highly trained working people to find a home, which is unsatisfactory.

I like the point about hardship stripping back and reducing baggage. Yes, it brings you back to the fundamentals and provides clarity. On the downside, it seems that the last thing humans want is too much clarity of their existential situation, hence all the buffers that lies between us and Truth - religion, ideology, media, art. These tend to softens the realisation (or at least distract from them) the fact that all life must kill (usually other organisms), exploit (usually other organisms) and out-compete other humans to survive/thrive, a fact that idealists do not like to acknowledge.

[Lagayascienza]

Sy b=Bord, I agree opiates are risky long-term. I took them for ten days when I had kidney stones and when I stopped I had an awful, creeping feeling of unease and fear. It was horrible. I could only put it down to withdrawal from the opitates. Luckily it passed after a day. I cannot imagine what it must be like to withdraw from heroin after years of use. Still, for a few days opiates can give some welcome relief without risk of dependency.

Showers or warm baths are a great idea, too. I forgot to mention that. Hydrotherapy in one of those hot tubs with jets of water pummelling you would also be good. And massage. Feeling your muscles being gently and lovingly manipulated and being rubbed with nice smelling oil takes your mind off the pain esewhere. When have an injection prior to drilling at the dentist, I pinch myself hard so I don't feel the pain of the injection so much. Same princple. It works.

Oh, and you are so right about trying to sleep in hospital with tubes everywhere and alarms going off all around you. Those places seem designed to prevent sleep. You're better off at home if possible.

Hope you start to feel better soon.

[Lagayascienza]

I must read Requiem for a Dream. I'd like to see the film but it doesn't seem to be available on Foxtel or Netflix and I ditched Amazon Prime. I imagine that withdrawing from heroin would be pretty close the darkest night of the soul.

[JackDaydream]

I've just come out of hospital again due to bowel problems. Sun morning it was so bad I was moaning like an sick cow and completely unable to function and we had to get an ambulance. Third time. They' operate but it's apparently a big operation ad a bit of last resort.

Aside from being embarrassing, ideally, I should be able to use philosophical ideas to deal with agony better. You hear stories like that of a sick fakir who was writhing in pain, but still smiling and being personable.

I was not smiling or personable. I tried to being up stoicism but the ideas were like ants trying to bring down an elephant. I tried breath control but could not keep it up.

How do you deal with ongoing, persistent agony that drags on days and days, unrelenting?

Please, don't waste words on standard well wishes. I'll take them as givens. We all know the drum, Just ideas and philosophy. Thanks.

The problem of persistent agony may be the raw existential material of philosophy as it involves living on a knife-edge. It can involve the whole spectrum of physical, emotional and mental suffering. I can empathise with the problem, although on a slightly different way. That is in the form of constant stress and, currently this has been connected with ongoing housing difficulties. I also found out a couple of weeks ago that there may be a repossession by the owner. It took me months to find this accommodation when the last shared housing was repossessed. I have been agonising so much...

The question is where does all this agony take us philosophically? It is hard not to become overtaken by it to the point of feeling trapped. Some people beat themselves up, thinking what have I done to deserve this pain? I am inclined to view a certain amount of wallowing in self- pity as a slightly better than a guilt response, as it self-pity may be protective against the black hole of despair. The agony which people experience may be 'the dark night of the soul', which may, or may not, bring transformation. If nothing else, it may bring a human being back to the essentials of what truly matters, because agony may push out so much of the superficial aspects of life as being redundant, unnecessary baggage.

Yes, mental anguish is just as bad, sometimes worse. Mental pain probably kills more than physical pain does.

Housing in Australia is a disaster ATM. I hear it's the same in a number of western countries, eg. Canada. The government massively increased migrant intakes at a time of systemic housing undersupply. There are some key points here.
1. High immigration increases GDP - it looks good on paper, and very quotable by friendly media.
2. High immigration reduces GDP per capita - the nation is wealthier while the people struggle
3. It is not a government's job to save the wretched of this world, it is to represent its own people's interests, including those of poor locals who were basically thrown under the bus by this government.

It's now hard for even highly trained working people to find a home, which is unsatisfactory.

I like the point about hardship stripping back and reducing baggage. Yes, it brings you back to the fundamentals and provides clarity. On the downside, it seems that the last thing humans want is too much clarity of their existential situation, hence all the buffers that lies between us and Truth - religion, ideology, media, art. These tend to softens the realisation (or at least distract from them) the fact that all life must kill (usually other organisms), exploit (usually other organisms) and out-compete other humans to survive/thrive, a fact that idealists do not like to acknowledge.

The spectrum of physical/emotional/mental suffering is so complex. In some ways, physical pain may switch off mental worries and, at other times, mental pain may switch off all the concerns about everyday physical functioning, especially in forms of mental illness. Some people are inclined to see a hierarchy of who is suffering most, but that can become a bit silly, because experience is subjectively real. On the other hand, a new problem can feel so large that it almost cancels out a previous one. Of course, simultaneous sufferings can be extremely difficult and may contribute to the problem of 'persistent agony'.

It does seem that people may wish to switch off from the nature of suffering. Shallow entertainment may do this. Of course, news in the media comes into this. It is possible to become immersed in great dramas across the world to distract from personal suffering. There are personal circumstances of pain and suffering and the wider picture of suffering on a global scale. Gloating on others' suffering is unhelpful but it useful to contextualise suffering in the larger picture of the human condition.

[chewybrian]

The first idea that jumps to mind is the tiger and the strawberry. As we age, possibilities diminish and physically pleasurable events become less common while physical pain tends to increase. Yet, we don't tend to enjoy life less on the whole, but more, as we may have worked out most of our emotional problems and learned gratitude. Of course, there are limits to the comforts philosophy could be expected to provide.

I think the moral of the tiger and the strawberry is that there is always a reason to carry on, and we can find something to enjoy in the worst of circumstances. It may not be there for you at this particular moment, but as long as we live there is hope that it will come for us. Sometimes you have to carry on for the hope of a moment that is yet unknown to you. In the future you may see something you had not imagined possible or help or provide inspiration to someone you've not yet met. Even when or if these things come to pass, you may be unaware of their importance. Some little offhand comment you make could be very important to someone.

All this does not amount to wishful thinking, which you wisely seek to avoid. I'd simply try to enjoy what you can and be grateful when possible. Epictetus begged us to show him a stoic fully formed, knowing there is no such thing. Keep trying to make progress when you are able, knowing it will not come quickly or smoothly, and that sometimes you will slide back despite effort.

About the meds... I always try to avoid meds for as long as possible and take the least aggressive type that seems necessary. At some point, though, the benefits outweigh the risks and then you take it. You'll have to decide with your doctor's advice when you reach that point and then I'd say you do what makes your life best.

[Sy Borg]

When have an injection prior to drilling at the dentist, I pinch myself hard so I don't feel the pain of the injection so much. Same principle. It works.

I've done that to try to deal with itches. I made a cartoon about this idea that I'll send by PM.

No probs with injections when you are in agony, though - I hardly felt them, and barely even felt the barium injection before the MRI.

The dentist is a whole other issue! I have to be unconscious for root canal jobs because the rubber blood sheet makes me gag violently and constantly. I a truly rotten specimen lol

As for the cannulas, sometimes they are needed but they are often looking at risk management (ie. covering their legal @rses). For instance, they wanted to use in to give me potassium (which had become low) and medication to prevent blood clots. Yet, I already have electrolyte tabs at home and you can take about as many as you need, and I had a smaller than usual risk of clots because, when was able, I was hobbling hunched and drawn around the hospital ward like an ancient being, because I find walking to be helpful, but nowhere near as good as the showers.

I never spent An Hour in the Shower (Chicago song) though it seemed like a good idea, but I normally like to quickly just get clean and out.

[Sy Borg]

I've just come out of hospital again due to bowel problems. Sun morning it was so bad I was moaning like an sick cow and completely unable to function and we had to get an ambulance. Third time. They' operate but it's apparently a big operation ad a bit of last resort.

Aside from being embarrassing, ideally, I should be able to use philosophical ideas to deal with agony better. You hear stories like that of a sick fakir who was writhing in pain, but still smiling and being personable.

I was not smiling or personable. I tried to being up stoicism but the ideas were like ants trying to bring down an elephant. I tried breath control but could not keep it up.

How do you deal with ongoing, persistent agony that drags on days and days, unrelenting?

Please, don't waste words on standard well wishes. I'll take them as givens. We all know the drum, Just ideas and philosophy. Thanks.

The problem of persistent agony may be the raw existential material of philosophy as it involves living on a knife-edge. It can involve the whole spectrum of physical, emotional and mental suffering. I can empathise with the problem, although on a slightly different way. That is in the form of constant stress and, currently this has been connected with ongoing housing difficulties. I also found out a couple of weeks ago that there may be a repossession by the owner. It took me months to find this accommodation when the last shared housing was repossessed. I have been agonising so much...

The question is where does all this agony take us philosophically? It is hard not to become overtaken by it to the point of feeling trapped. Some people beat themselves up, thinking what have I done to deserve this pain? I am inclined to view a certain amount of wallowing in self- pity as a slightly better than a guilt response, as it self-pity may be protective against the black hole of despair. The agony which people experience may be 'the dark night of the soul', which may, or may not, bring transformation. If nothing else, it may bring a human being back to the essentials of what truly matters, because agony may push out so much of the superficial aspects of life as being redundant, unnecessary baggage.

Yes, mental anguish is just as bad, sometimes worse. Mental pain probably kills more than physical pain does.

Housing in Australia is a disaster ATM. I hear it's the same in a number of western countries, eg. Canada. The government massively increased migrant intakes at a time of systemic housing undersupply. There are some key points here.
1. High immigration increases GDP - it looks good on paper, and very quotable by friendly media.
2. High immigration reduces GDP per capita - the nation is wealthier while the people struggle
3. It is not a government's job to save the wretched of this world, it is to represent its own people's interests, including those of poor locals who were basically thrown under the bus by this government.

It's now hard for even highly trained working people to find a home, which is unsatisfactory.

I like the point about hardship stripping back and reducing baggage. Yes, it brings you back to the fundamentals and provides clarity. On the downside, it seems that the last thing humans want is too much clarity of their existential situation, hence all the buffers that lies between us and Truth - religion, ideology, media, art. These tend to softens the realisation (or at least distract from them) the fact that all life must kill (usually other organisms), exploit (usually other organisms) and out-compete other humans to survive/thrive, a fact that idealists do not like to acknowledge.

The spectrum of physical/emotional/mental suffering is so complex. In some ways, physical pain may switch off mental worries and, at other times, mental pain may switch off all the concerns about everyday physical functioning, especially in forms of mental illness. Some people are inclined to see a hierarchy of who is suffering most, but that can become a bit silly, because experience is subjectively real. On the other hand, a new problem can feel so large that it almost cancels out a previous one. Of course, simultaneous sufferings can be extremely difficult and may contribute to the problem of 'persistent agony'.

It does seem that people may wish to switch off from the nature of suffering. Shallow entertainment may do this. Of course, news in the media comes into this. It is possible to become immersed in great dramas across the world to distract from personal suffering. There are personal circumstances of pain and suffering and the wider picture of suffering on a global scale. Gloating on others' suffering is unhelpful but it useful to contextualise suffering in the larger picture of the human condition.

You don't have to look OS for suffering, either - it's in our local homeless shelters and food queues.

The relative aspect of suffering is interesting. To be poverty-stricken in a nation of poor people is very different poverty in the face of widespread wealth. The former are "one of the gang", the latter are put aside.

[Sy Borg]

The first idea that jumps to mind is the tiger and the strawberry. As we age, possibilities diminish and physically pleasurable events become less common while physical pain tends to increase. Yet, we don't tend to enjoy life less on the whole, but more, as we may have worked out most of our emotional problems and learned gratitude. Of course, there are limits to the comforts philosophy could be expected to provide.

I think the moral of the tiger and the strawberry is that there is always a reason to carry on, and we can find something to enjoy in the worst of circumstances. It may not be there for you at this particular moment, but as long as we live there is hope that it will come for us. Sometimes you have to carry on for the hope of a moment that is yet unknown to you. In the future you may see something you had not imagined possible or help or provide inspiration to someone you've not yet met. Even when or if these things come to pass, you may be unaware of their importance. Some little offhand comment you make could be very important to someone.

All this does not amount to wishful thinking, which you wisely seek to avoid. I'd simply try to enjoy what you can and be grateful when possible. Epictetus begged us to show him a stoic fully formed, knowing there is no such thing. Keep trying to make progress when you are able, knowing it will not come quickly or smoothly, and that sometimes you will slide back despite effort.

About the meds... I always try to avoid meds for as long as possible and take the least aggressive type that seems necessary. At some point, though, the benefits outweigh the risks and then you take it. You'll have to decide with your doctor's advice when you reach that point and then I'd say you do what makes your life best.

The tigers and the strawberry tale brings Camus to mind. Everything might be crap but let's see what's good out there. Thing is, in those darkest moments, nothing can give you dopamine boost. Multimedia visuals and noise were nauseating, reading anything more intelligent (or interesting) than news did not draw me. I looked around the hospital ward, marvelling at the levels of organisation - the angles and placement of each panel, light and fan, not to mention the astonishing complexity of the entire hospital edifice. That helps for two minutes.

The work that cam to my mind was "persevere" and "this is end" and another part of me was thinking how much I wished it all ended and I didn't have to suffer any more (ie. feeling sorry for myself). Yes, I'm not even a stoic's bootlace, let alone a stoic full formed. Perhaps some astronauts, especially those who were fighter pilots and test pilots might qualify as ultimate stoics?

Agree about the meds. Usually, I follow what they recommend, but they do tend to over-prescribe for risk management purposes, which basically means doing many small harms, not easily detected, as opposed to risking one or two greater harms that can attract law suits.

[Samana Johann]

I've just come out of hospital again due to bowel problems. Sun morning it was so bad I was moaning like an sick cow and completely unable to function and we had to get an ambulance. Third time. They' operate but it's apparently a big operation ad a bit of last resort.

Aside from being embarrassing, ideally, I should be able to use philosophical ideas to deal with agony better. You hear stories like that of a sick fakir who was writhing in pain, but still smiling and being personable.

I was not smiling or personable. I tried to being up stoicism but the ideas were like ants trying to bring down an elephant. I tried breath control but could not keep it up.

How do you deal with ongoing, persistent agony that drags on days and days, unrelenting?

Please, don't waste words on standard well wishes. I'll take them as givens. We all know the drum, Just ideas and philosophy. Thanks.

Maybe a good time, if having the required merits: Beyond Coping - The Buddha's Teachings on Aging, Illness, Death, and Separation.

May good SB be able to take some of really healing medicine.