Logic is it's own fallacy.

[ChaoticMindSays]

Sfumato- A willingness to embrace ambiguity, paradox, and uncertainty.
Those are three things we will never escape.

...wouldn't god(omniscience) be a higher stage...

I really don't see how I contradicted myself... Sure, omniscience would be a higher stage but that does not necessarily mean that is is a higher stage that exists. If infinity exists than omniscient probably doesn't; at least, that is the way I look at it.


How did I contradict myself?

[wanabe]

Technically, because of your sfumato you have not contradicted your self.

Your sfumato however; makes it so that you could also be speaking gibberish.

I have no problem with this, however it makes for a rather 'unproductive' conversation(who says it need be productive though).

[ChaoticMindSays]

Haha... Well I believe that contradictions are sometimes necessary. But should be avoided, or solved, if possible.

Still, I would like to know, specifically, where you see the contradiction. I can't see it and think it is probably simply a misunderstanding.

[wanabe]

ChaoticMindSays,

paraphrasing: You say that a higher stage probably does exist; while at the same time saying omniscience probably doesn't exist.(I chose to paraphrase because it highlights my understanding of what I believe you have said) Omniscience would be the only true higher stage, if it in fact existed.

Anything less than omniscience, is relative, and is simply different from some other stage.

[ChaoticMindSays]

paraphrasing: You say that a higher stage probably does exist; while at the same time saying omniscience probably doesn't exist.(I chose to paraphrase because it highlights my understanding of what I believe you have said) Omniscience would be the only true higher stage, if it in fact existed.

Anything less than omniscience, is relative, and is simply different from some other stage.

Alright, I see what you are getting at now. How do you know omniscience isn't relative? How do you there is no other 'higher stage' other than omniscience? I was trying to avoid those conclusions.

[wanabe]

ChaoticMindSays,

Quite simply, omniscience means one is all knowing(definition). If one knows everything, it is not relative because they know everything. With this knowledge one could do a great many things certainly, however there would be a limit to the things they are capable of doing(not omnipotence, but the closest thing to it possible).

If there were two or more omnipotent beings one would probably be able to utilize the knowledge more effectively than the others by luck of first acquisition, or by practical experience.

[ChaoticMindSays]

As I said before... If infinity is a real thing than omniscience could not exist. It would be impossible to know everything. Or if "everything" was known, the knowledge would be limited and still be relative.

So it comes down to weather or not omniscience is the only higher stage that there could be. I don't necessarily think that just because everything is relative that no stage is objectively, or perhaps subjectively, higher than another. It's more complicated than that...

[Kapra]

If infinity is a real thing than omniscience could not exist. It would be impossible to know everything. Or if "everything" was known, the knowledge would be limited and still be relative.

That made no sense to me? But then I haven`t read all of the previous pages only this one. I am not understanding what you mean by it would be impossible to know everything? If infinity is real it can be known.

[ChaoticMindSays]

That made no sense to me? But then I haven`t read all of the previous pages only this one. I am not understanding what you mean by it would be impossible to know everything? If infinity is real it can be known.

It means that if infinity is a real thing than "everything" is open ended and omniscience, the knowledge of all things, could never be complete and, therefor, could not exist.
Make more sense?

[Kapra]

[quote]It means that if infinity is a real thing than "everything" is open ended and omniscience, the knowledge of all things, could never be complete and, therefor, could not exist.
quote]

If infinity exists and is real, then knowledge of all things would exist, you seem to be arguing because it isn`t real for humans it could not exist, by saying that you are claiming you know the outcome. Define what you mean by infinity this would be a start in the right direction.

[ChaoticMindSays]

If infinity exists and is real, then knowledge of all things would exist, you seem to be arguing because it isn`t real for humans it could not exist, by saying that you are claiming you know the outcome. Define what you mean by infinity this would be a start in the right direction.

But then I haven`t read all of the previous pages only this one

Maybe that is why you don't understand....

Your just splitting hairs. In one sense, if infinity exists, then omniscience would have to exist. In the other it could exist because infinity would be ever expanding and completely ungraspable. I suppose the omniscience could expand with infinity..

[Kapra]

Maybe that is why you don't understand....

I am in full understanding of what I mean about infinity, I am asking you what you mean by it? I don`t need to read a the whole thread to understand the statements you made in #127 and #129 which I am interested in and asked you how you arrived at your answer. But if its not possible for you to provide cogent answers or to even define what you mean by the word infinity, then that is up to you.

[ChaoticMindSays]

Infinity- never ending, forever, ever growing, etc.

That is why I said infinity cannot be known, How do you know every aspect of something that is never ending and always expanding?

[Kapra]

#133

Infinity- never ending, forever, ever growing, etc.

That is why I said infinity cannot be known, How do you know every aspect of something that is never ending and always expanding?

Hang on lets back up here, you are running ahead of youself and me. Let us put the brakes on a minute, this thread reads like a runaway train to nowhere. Let us pause for thought and take a moment. Thank you.

First let as really look at infinity and what it means.
In advanced math it means ZERO a nought. Let us see why that is?
That is what math calls their infinitesimal number. That number can never be reached.

Now let us look at the language definition,
and You are correct it means never ending, but it doesn`t follow it can`t be known.

In philosophy it can mean space and time.

in religion it can mean God is uncontainable.

The infinite is about potential not actual outcome it is usually defined as being beyond the minds comprehension. We can say infinity exists without us having to understand infinity. Chaotic for you to say its never ending is not sufficient. Not because you are wrong or right, it is because it doesn`t issue anything, it is just space and time. It means nothing 0

[ChaoticMindSays]

Kapra, I really don't see the point you are trying to make in this argument...

First let as really look at infinity and what it means.
In advanced math it means ZERO a nought. Let us see why that is?
That is what math calls their infinitesimal number. That number can never be reached.

First off, I don't really care, second; I have one apple. I eat the apple, now I have zero apples. Wow, I just reached zero.

In philosophy it can mean space and time.

in religion it can mean God is uncontainable.

Space and time, which is, in my opinion, never ending...

"Uncontainable" in this context means pretty much the same thing as ever growing or never ending...

The infinite is about potential not actual outcome it is usually defined as being beyond the minds comprehension. We can say infinity exists without us having to understand infinity. Chaotic for you to say its never ending is not sufficient

I could give you a list of thousand words that insufficiently attempt to define concepts. Doesn't mean that we should stop trying to understand and or define said concepts.
I believe infinity lies "within the minds comprehension", but is extremely difficult to comprehend.