Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

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Meta Island
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by Meta Island »

Count Lucanor wrote: September 17th, 2022, 11:39 am
Meta Island wrote: September 15th, 2022, 7:04 pm The following applies to all the iterations of intelligence that suit you: knowledge, judgment, awareness, intuition, skill, etc.

If intelligence arises from algorithms interacting with data, then intelligence is just intelligence no matter what is used to create it.
But intelligence does not arise from algorithms. Try something else.
Rules interacting with data is a reasonable way to view intelligence, whether it is being generated, collected, or accessed from memory. I use the term algorithm because it confers a mathematical rigor to the process. If you are suggesting that intelligence does not fundamentally rely on mathematics, I disagree. When this OP settles, I will post another OP that supports a mathematical view of intelligence.
Meta Island
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by Meta Island »

heracleitos wrote: September 16th, 2022, 4:43 am With regards to the term "artificial intelligence", I think that Orwell's notion of meaningless word is nicely applicable.

Orwell writes the following in his essay "Politics and the English language" about "meaningless words":
The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.
Every deliberate lie, in one way or another, is a lie of omission with a view to manipulation. Good intentions have their place, but corrupt motives run the gamut from chicanery to the depths of perniciousness.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 16th, 2022, 7:23 am "Artificial intelligence" should be considered synonymous with "human-made intelligence", or maybe "human-initiated intelligence", as 'proper' AI would be able to direct its own course of development. So I agree, not really 'artificial' at all.
AverageBozo wrote: September 16th, 2022, 10:33 am I think that that course of development is actually done by machine learning, so I like your usage of “human-initiated intelligence”. Of course this begs the question of whether learning simply depends on intelligence or actually is intelligence.
I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
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AverageBozo
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by AverageBozo »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:43 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 16th, 2022, 7:23 am "Artificial intelligence" should be considered synonymous with "human-made intelligence", or maybe "human-initiated intelligence", as 'proper' AI would be able to direct its own course of development. So I agree, not really 'artificial' at all.
AverageBozo wrote: September 16th, 2022, 10:33 am I think that that course of development is actually done by machine learning, so I like your usage of “human-initiated intelligence”. Of course this begs the question of whether learning simply depends on intelligence or actually is intelligence.
I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
What other factors do you think would lead to sufficiency for learning? A willingness to learn? A learning environment?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

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AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:57 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:43 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 16th, 2022, 7:23 am "Artificial intelligence" should be considered synonymous with "human-made intelligence", or maybe "human-initiated intelligence", as 'proper' AI would be able to direct its own course of development. So I agree, not really 'artificial' at all.
AverageBozo wrote: September 16th, 2022, 10:33 am I think that that course of development is actually done by machine learning, so I like your usage of “human-initiated intelligence”. Of course this begs the question of whether learning simply depends on intelligence or actually is intelligence.
I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
What other factors do you think would lead to sufficiency for learning? A willingness to learn? A learning environment?
Yes, some kind of motivation would seem also to be necessary. 👍
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AverageBozo
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by AverageBozo »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 12:38 pm
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:57 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:43 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 16th, 2022, 7:23 am "Artificial intelligence" should be considered synonymous with "human-made intelligence", or maybe "human-initiated intelligence", as 'proper' AI would be able to direct its own course of development. So I agree, not really 'artificial' at all.
AverageBozo wrote: September 16th, 2022, 10:33 am I think that that course of development is actually done by machine learning, so I like your usage of “human-initiated intelligence”. Of course this begs the question of whether learning simply depends on intelligence or actually is intelligence.
I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
What other factors do you think would lead to sufficiency for learning? A willingness to learn? A learning environment?
Yes, some kind of motivation would seem also to be necessary. 👍
Would it be fair to say that the computer’s program would supply the motivation?
heracleitos
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by heracleitos »

Meta Island wrote: September 18th, 2022, 7:37 am Every deliberate lie, in one way or another, is a lie of omission with a view to manipulation. Good intentions have their place, but corrupt motives run the gamut from chicanery to the depths of perniciousness.
Agreed.

However, I also believe in double negatives: causing substantial damage to something that is evil, is actually a good thing.

Since I consider corporations to be the manipulative right arm of the ruling mafia, I consider extracting massive funds out of a corporation for AI bullsh.it, to be a positive contribution to your own wallet and to the world at large. Hence, I am not necessarily hostile to commercial AI snake-oil salesmen.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

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Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:43 am I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:57 am What other factors do you think would lead to sufficiency for learning? A willingness to learn? A learning environment?
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 12:38 pm Yes, some kind of motivation would seem also to be necessary. 👍
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:34 pm Would it be fair to say that the computer’s program would supply the motivation?
I would say not, but only because of the nature of a computer program, not because what you suggest seems 'wrong'. Can we call it "motivation" when the AI in question has no choice but to do what it's programmed to do?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

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Meta Island wrote: September 18th, 2022, 7:37 am Every deliberate lie, in one way or another, is a lie of omission with a view to manipulation. Good intentions have their place, but corrupt motives run the gamut from chicanery to the depths of perniciousness.
Not every lie, but I don't disagree with your sentiment. 👏👍
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AverageBozo
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by AverageBozo »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:59 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:43 am I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:57 am What other factors do you think would lead to sufficiency for learning? A willingness to learn? A learning environment?
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 12:38 pm Yes, some kind of motivation would seem also to be necessary. 👍
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:34 pm Would it be fair to say that the computer’s program would supply the motivation?
I would say not, but only because of the nature of a computer program, not because what you suggest seems 'wrong'. Can we call it "motivation" when the AI in question has no choice but to do what it's programmed to do?
Not to quibble, but I would say that the computer is compelled to follow the instructions given in the program’s lines of code. IOW, it is forced to obey. I see force as one thing that can motivate to act.

Of course, I can defeat the above argument by pointing out that not only is the computer without options, but it has no concept even of what the consequences of resistance would be if such an option were available.

So, is machine learning not really learning, but only a matter of following directions?
Meta Island
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by Meta Island »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 19th, 2022, 12:05 pm
Meta Island wrote: September 18th, 2022, 7:37 am Every deliberate lie, in one way or another, is a lie of omission with a view to manipulation. Good intentions have their place, but corrupt motives run the gamut from chicanery to the depths of perniciousness.
Not every lie, but I don't disagree with your sentiment. 👏👍
I thought twice about using the word “every” in a philosophy forum. Probably shoulda thought three times :)
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 8:43 am I think intelligence is necessary, but maybe not sufficient, for learning to be possible?
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 11:57 am What other factors do you think would lead to sufficiency for learning? A willingness to learn? A learning environment?
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 18th, 2022, 12:38 pm Yes, some kind of motivation would seem also to be necessary. 👍
AverageBozo wrote: September 18th, 2022, 3:34 pm Would it be fair to say that the computer’s program would supply the motivation?
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 19th, 2022, 11:59 am I would say not, but only because of the nature of a computer program, not because what you suggest seems 'wrong'. Can we call it "motivation" when the AI in question has no choice but to do what it's programmed to do?
AverageBozo wrote: September 19th, 2022, 1:27 pm Not to quibble, but I would say that the computer is compelled to follow the instructions given in the program’s lines of code. IOW, it is forced to obey. I see force as one thing that can motivate to act.

Of course, I can defeat the above argument by pointing out that not only is the computer without options, but it has no concept even of what the consequences of resistance would be if such an option were available.

So, is machine learning not really learning, but only a matter of following directions?
Interesting.
Wikipedia wrote: Motivational states are commonly understood as forces acting within the agent that create a disposition to engage in goal-directed behavior.
I have always thought of motivation as something that makes me want to do something, not something external that gives me no choice but to act.
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

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I can conclude that you didn’t grow up with an older brother like mine!
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Re: Artificial Intelligence? No Such Thing.

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I was the older brother! 😀
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