Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about science?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
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Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

Many who support the BB can be just as ignorant of the theory.The theory Ignores any evidence that contradicts the said theory and most interestingly will invent the most outrageous concepts to support it. Just like many modernish theoretical mumbo jumbo it has become so entrenched into the human psyche the truth would be too much of an embarrassment. The alternatives may also be wrong but till science starts examining itself the truth will not be discovered.
Steve3007
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Steve3007 »

Engineer0RQ1:
I think it may in some cases also be play: simply entertainment, exploration and testing. Do you think this may apply to Da##winX ?
Obviously only Charley X himself can answer that one properly. But yes, I think generally exploring and playing by proposing unusual ideas in order to get a reaction is a worthwhile exercise. But I think one of the characteristics of "play" is that it almost always has at least some kind of internally consistent set of rules which can be explored and tested. If the person instigating the play changes the rules, or simply ignores them, when challenged then the game fairly quickly stops being fun. Anarchy can be fun for a while, but I think it almost always gets boring in the end.

I think there are posters on these forums who believe themselves to be doing this "playing with ideas" thing but don't really get that general principle. And you can see the frustration in the other posters when whenever they try to establish what precisely can be said under the rules of the present game, that game is abandoned and another one is started. As I keep telling my 8 year old son, if you start a game then you have to be prepared to win or lose!

But, still, I have no serious complaints. It's all part of the mix.
Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

And there are those who attempt to defend the status quo but when it becomes difficult, suddenly ignore your posts. Like how do you explain how x rays require an escape velocity when they are not influenced by gravity. Why does science ignore the fact that the temperature of celestial bodies influences the red shift. Why does it ignore the fact that stars have been found older than the universe. Why does it attempt to explain galaxies colliding when they should be expanding away from each other. How can it suddenly find that a concept(dark energy) it defended so vehemently, unnecessary. I think it is essential these misconceptions of science are brought to general attention. Yes you can call Arp a crack pot or Gaede a fool but please do not question the integrity of their idols.
Engineer0RQ1
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Engineer0RQ1 »

Xris

i thought science needed to find/explain/define "dark matter" i.e. matter possessing only mass because their calculations show a large quantity of mass in the universe to be unaccounted for.

What is "dark energy"?

What actual stars are older than the universe and what evidence supports this premise?

Are the majority of the problems you raise not down to interpretation and the fact that science has three different viewpoints?

What makes the opinion of Arp and Gaede any different from yours or mine?

Are you saying there are higher standards of reference and integrity that should automatically be accepted? :shock: :?


Steve3007

I tell my son the same thing. The thing I find most annoying about some members of the philosophy club is their need to find conspiracy in everything and their absolute distrust of accepted scientific opinion.
Chris

An engineer by philosophy, opinion and action.
Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

Engineer0RQ1 wrote:Xris

i thought science needed to find/explain/define "dark matter" i.e. matter possessing only mass because their calculations show a large quantity of mass in the universe to be unaccounted for.

What is "dark energy"?

What actual stars are older than the universe and what evidence supports this premise?

Are the majority of the problems you raise not down to interpretation and the fact that science has three different viewpoints?

What makes the opinion of Arp and Gaede any different from yours or mine?

Are you saying there are higher standards of reference and integrity that should automatically be accepted? :shock: :?
Science has discounted dark energy.It is no longer required. It is now the turn of dark matter.Recent remarks have been made admitting that this stuff should be influencing the movement of planets and it ain't. So how much of theoretical science can we trust? It is the proponents of the BB, not skeptics like me, questioning their very own inventions.Dark energy and dark matter are crucial to understanding the theory of the BB. Without them what exactly have they got?


It is not what Arp or Gaede have to replace suspect scientific concepts. It is the fact that no one is looking. Academia simply continues to readjust the concept to fit the anomalies. Arp and Gaede are not the problem, they may not have the answers but they do represent what science should be doing.

The star has a number but I believe they have called it Methuselah. What is even more of a problem for cosmology is the fact it is in our galaxy.
Jklint
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Jklint »

Xris wrote: Science has discounted dark energy.It is no longer required. It is now the turn of dark matter.Recent remarks have been made admitting that this stuff should be influencing the movement of planets and it ain't. So how much of theoretical science can we trust? It is the proponents of the BB, not skeptics like me, questioning their very own inventions.Dark energy and dark matter are crucial to understanding the theory of the BB. Without them what exactly have they got?
I know that the "Dark Energy" concept has always been highly speculative and because of its more tenuous foundation could in the future be debunked by something more credible. But where does it state that dark energy has now been discounted by science and no longer required? It sounds like a brand new break through I wasn't aware of - which is not unusual. If that is the case, there must be a new theory to replace it and account for what seems to be expansion.

Are you referring to the David Wiltshire accounting for it? The so-called "Hubble Bubble"? From what I understand it's an idea other scientists are taking a very close look at but it hasn't yet dethroned the Dark Energy concept. Or maybe you mean something else?
Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

What does it take to dethrone a concept? I can name many who still believe in an expanding universe that say it does not exist, there is no need for it, nor any evidence. What one academic figure would you accept or do we have a head count?
Jklint
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Jklint »

Xris wrote:What does it take to dethrone a concept? I can name many who still believe in an expanding universe that say it does not exist, there is no need for it, nor any evidence. What one academic figure would you accept or do we have a head count?
You said categorically:
Science has discounted dark energy.It is no longer required.
All I wanted to know was did I miss something? Was it put on the back burner so to speak. Was there some kind of consensus among scientists which renounced dark energy as no longer viable? You make it sound as if there was because the last time I looked there was no such discounting and wondered if there is an update of some kind?

So the question remains. In what context has dark energy been discounted meaning no-longer speculated upon as being feasible?
Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

Jklint wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


You said categorically:


(Nested quote removed.)


All I wanted to know was did I miss something? Was it put on the back burner so to speak. Was there some kind of consensus among scientists which renounced dark energy as no longer viable? You make it sound as if there was because the last time I looked there was no such discounting and wondered if there is an update of some kind?

So the question remains. In what context has dark energy been discounted meaning no-longer speculated upon as being feasible?
It still depends on what you consider feasible. http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... l-constant
Jklint
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Jklint »

Xris wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

It still depends on what you consider feasible. http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... l-constant
Appreciate the link, thank you! It was very interesting and quite understandable but clearly it does not dismiss the concept of dark energy at this time. It may need to be refined and it could be discounted in the future with more info but as it stands at the moment, it seems to stand until further advised.
Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

Jklint wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Appreciate the link, thank you! It was very interesting and quite understandable but clearly it does not dismiss the concept of dark energy at this time. It may need to be refined and it could be discounted in the future with more info but as it stands at the moment, it seems to stand until further advised.
When mainstream cosmology has not proved dark energy exists it is essential any observations opposing it are taken seriously. This is not the only observational opposition. Who actually decides when it has outlived it's purpose. As far as I am concerned science has produced enough evidence to dismiss it. I classify dark energy and dark matter as a metaphysical response, not a true scientific argument to support the concept of an expanding universe.
Jklint
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Jklint »

Xris wrote: When mainstream cosmology has not proved dark energy exists it is essential any observations opposing it are taken seriously. This is not the only observational opposition.
Couldn't agree more. There wouldn't be any advancement if that weren't true.
Who actually decides when it has outlived it's purpose.
I don't think anyone actually "decides". Since science steadily strives to close the gaps with new or refined theories it is that which becomes the inheritor and the next step up in making the gaps smaller. I think of science as a winding staircase, one step at a time. You stay put with whatever theory until you're ready to make the next move.
Engineer0RQ1
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Engineer0RQ1 »

Xris
It is not what Arp or Gaede have to replace suspect scientific concepts.
"Suspect" in whose opinion and why are they not offering alternatives?
Arp and Gaede are not the problem, they may not have the answers but they do represent what science should be doing.
In whose opinion and why are the scientists and their paymasters not the best people to determine how science is carried out?
The star has a number but I believe they have called it Methuselah. What is even more of a problem for cosmology is the fact it is in our galaxy.
Wikipedia now seems to have doubts about the age of your star: "Due to the uncertainty in the value, this age for the star does not conflict with the age of the Universe determined by the Planck satellite, 13.798 ± 0.037.[2]"

Are you sure we should not leave scientific investigation to those engaging in it and simply wait for an answer that we could all have faith in?
Chris

An engineer by philosophy, opinion and action.
Xris
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

Post by Xris »

Engineer0RQ1 wrote:Xris


(Nested quote removed.)

"Suspect" in whose opinion and why are they not offering alternatives?


(Nested quote removed.)

In whose opinion and why are the scientists and their paymasters not the best people to determine how science is carried out?


(Nested quote removed.)

Wikipedia now seems to have doubts about the age of your star: "Due to the uncertainty in the value, this age for the star does not conflict with the age of the Universe determined by the Planck satellite, 13.798 ± 0.037.[2]"

Are you sure we should not leave scientific investigation to those engaging in it and simply wait for an answer that we could all have faith in?
Gaede is most certainly offering alternatives, as for Arp, I believe he is dead.He was a scientist bringing to our attention an anomaly that required investigation. Is that wrong?

Paymasters and their servants have vested interest.That's why we should have suspicion.

I think you should read more about Methuselah. How do you place a star, almost certainly older than the universe in a galaxy that is half its age?

So what about the Russians claiming dark matters expected influence over the planets not found. Should we dismiss dark matter or continue to believe in it? It is a bit like dark energy.No matter how many throw doubt on it. It maintains the authority to support an expanding universe concept.

If you have faith in academia good luck to you.
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Re: Is it appropriate to correct misconceptions about scienc

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“If men could see us as we really are, they would be a little amazed; but the cleverest, the acutest men are often under an illusion about women: they do not read them in a true light: they misapprehend them, both for good and evil: their good woman is a queer thing, half doll, half angel; their bad woman almost always a fiend.”
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