What is randomness?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
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Atreyu
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by Atreyu »

Obvious Leo wrote:Do you deny that life emerged from non-life? Do you deny that the cosmos operates in accordance with physical law? Do you deny that effects are always preceded by causes?

As I see it you appear to be denying the existence of physical reality itself but if it gives you comfort I wish you joy of it.

Regards Leo
Absolutely! It appears that you deny that life only comes from other life. If you think that denying abiogenesis is silly, I don't know what to say to you. It's never seen in nature. Sorry, but simple cells have never arisen from dirt, and never will.

As far as the second two questions, I don't see why you're bringing them up. No, I don't deny physical laws, nor do I deny cause and effect. It appears to be you who wishes to deny laws --- the law of life only coming from other life (a fundamental principle taught in high school science classes all across the country, but conveniently discarded by simple scientists who can't come up with a satisfactory explanation for the first cells on Earth), as well as the law that consciousness cannot be created solely by the interaction of mechanical forces.

But if you can give me any evidence of life arising from non-life or consciousness arising from random mechanical forces, by all means let me have it. Forgive me, but I'm unaware of any real world examples.

And BTW, a much better explanation for the first cells on Earth is to stick to the principle of 'life only comes from other life' and say that they must have migrated to the Earth from other life existing at another place. Not to pretend that the laws of nature were somehow different at a certain point of time around a billion or so years ago.
Obvious Leo
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by Obvious Leo »

I trained as a biologist over forty years ago and I've been a biologist ever since. I've met thousands of biologists over the journey and read thousands of biology books. I've never once heard or read of anybody denying that life emerged from non-life except for religious nuts. It appears that you know even less about physics than you do about biology if you think that random mechanical events can occur so I suggest you read some science before you presume to pontificate about it.

Regards Leo
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Atreyu
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by Atreyu »

Obvious Leo wrote:I trained as a biologist over forty years ago and I've been a biologist ever since. I've met thousands of biologists over the journey and read thousands of biology books. I've never once heard or read of anybody denying that life emerged from non-life except for religious nuts. It appears that you know even less about physics than you do about biology if you think that random mechanical events can occur so I suggest you read some science before you presume to pontificate about it.

Regards Leo
Well, Leo, all I can say in response to that is that I clearly remember in high school biology class learning about the principle that 'life only comes from other life', so I have no idea where you're coming from. I even remember the example used. It was the famous 'fly in the soup' experiment by Pasteur. People thought that flies somehow 'arose' from soup, so Pasteur devised an experiment to see if that was so. He put some soup in a contraption that would allow air in but not flies and indeed no flies ended up in the bowl of soup. And the lesson of the experiment was that flies only come from other flies. They can't somehow come from the soup itself.

Sorry, but as far as I can tell you guys cling to abiogenesis, only somehow occurring on the Earth a long time ago, but no more, solely because you can't come up with a better explanation for the first simple life on Earth.

Weak...
Obvious Leo
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by Obvious Leo »

I never said it occurred only on earth so don't put words into my mouth.
enegue
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by enegue »

Leo,

I hope my intrusion at this point in the discussion is not unwelcome, but I feel compelled to let you know we are in agreement.
Obvious Leo wrote:Do you deny that life emerged from non-life?
"And the LORD God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND..." (Genesis 2:7). So, no. I don't deny life emerged from non-life. It just didn't take billions of years to happen.
Obvious Leo wrote:Do you deny that the cosmos operates in accordance with physical law?
No. They were most definitely caused.
Obvious Leo wrote:Do you deny that effects are always preceded by causes?
No. All material existence has a cause. However, nothing can be proffered in regard to the cause of non-material existence.

Cheers,
enegue
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psyreporter
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by psyreporter »

Pure randomness equals to pure nothingness (zero meaning). Randomness cannot exist, with as an example result that computer encryption is always able to be broken with sufficient computing power.

(2020) Randomness theory could hold key to internet security
Researchers identified a problem that holds the key to whether all encryption can be broken -- as well as a surprising connection to a mathematical concept that aims to define and measure randomness.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 194721.htm

Therefore, one is to consider a factor to be involved that prevents actual randomness to be possible, which is meaning. This is evidence that meaning is fundamental to the Universe.
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
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Re: What is randomness?

Post by psyreporter »

Atreyu wrote: June 21st, 2014, 2:59 am And BTW, a much better explanation for the first cells on Earth is to stick to the principle of 'life only comes from other life' and say that they must have migrated to the Earth from other life existing at another place. Not to pretend that the laws of nature were somehow different at a certain point of time around a billion or so years ago.
The cells must have formed at some point. It may be best to seek the origin on earth unless there is a clue that the origin is extraterrestrial.

I do agree with you that life cannot have originated from random chemistry, e.g. a primordial chemical soup.

There are some clues that life on Earth has a special origin. An example is the Cambrian explosion, a period of the early earth ~530 million years ago in which all the basic structures of life forms of earth suddenly appeared on earth.

(2020) The Cambrian Explosion Mystery: Fossils still say no to Darwin
In the Cambrian Explosion, all the major animal groups first appear as fossils. They appear suddenly, fully-formed, and functional, and the older rock layers below them contain no ancestors.
https://www.icr.org/article/the-fossils ... -explosion

It was known and unexplainable during Charles Darwin's time but he said that science would find the 'missing' transition fossils.

Until today, those transition fossils haven't been found which may indicate that the evolution theory isn't valid and that life forms (kind, which could include the form of biological cells) have a different origin.

Another clue may be what is named 🦀 carcinization. In nature, crustacean animals keep evolving into asymmetrical crab-form with one big claw and a smaller claw, and many features that are specific to crab-form. It received its own name: carcinization.

crab.jpg
crab.jpg (38.9 KiB) Viewed 1249 times
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation

There is an indication that life on earth may be tied to Solar-neutrino energy from the 🌞 Sun. In the concept that Solar-neutrino energy is the source of life on Earth, it would be a 'topical' source of life, a physical link to 'pure meaning'.

In a Supernovae explosion, 99% of a stars energy is released into the Universe in the form of neutrinos. A recent study that showed a correlation between supernovae explosions and an explosion of life forms on earth.

(2022) Supernovae and life on Earth appear closely connected
A remarkable link between the number of nearby exploding stars, called supernovae, and life on Earth has been discovered.
https://phys.org/news/2022-01-supernova ... earth.html
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
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