Does time move?

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Misty
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Misty »

Present awareness wrote:
Distance and time are two separate and independent vectors used to measure a rate of change.

So why are you not also accusing Einstein of confusing time with distance?
I believe that Einstein understood that the concept of time, could not exist without the concept of space.

Although it is very difficult to imagine the absence of nothing (space) mainly because it is already absent, if it could be imagined, how could change occur without space for it to occur in? Since time is the measure of change thru space, how could time exist without space?
So time is the measure of distance it takes something to change?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

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Newme
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Newme »

Time is one of those disorientating ideas, because "the observer is contained within his observation." Still I've found comments motivating me to think and study more, particularly about metaphysics.

It seems that time is a perceptive process, or "referential frame within the events of the universe occur" - with every living thing "continually coming into existence." Change and time are interchangeable - and it's all in perspective. :)
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Gulnara
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Gulnara »

Say, I took colander, and start squeezing mash potatoes through it. Some of it remains inside, some is already sticking out off another side of the colander. To the observer on my side things move out, so my subjective take on this time period is: substance, matter is moving out, from me to the other, unknown side, things are disappearing. To the observers on another side, under the colander, the events are moving in, matter arrives from nowhere. However, this is one and the same process of soft material moving through rigid material. Time is like that, all of the events in Universe are one and the same process, that obtains different take, explanation from different points of observation. Different points of observation create variety of incremental time observations, compartmentalized in each live creature's, or person's sort of separate life. That is why each of us has an understanding, false, that his life is somehow separate from others.
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Newme. I would certainly urge you to think through these ideas for yourself rather than simply take my word for it. My philosophy has been my life's work and thus these notions have become intuitively obvious and second nature to me. I also have a sound grounding in physics for a layman, as well as many other sciences, and thus to integrate this meta-science into a physical science is really just a matter of chucking out the unnecessary, such as a 3 dimensional space.

Since burning heretics at the stake is no longer fashionable I've allowed myself the freedom to model my universe in a way which makes sense to me, rather than in the way the mathematics might dictate. Two quotes loosely paraphrased because I can't be bothered looking them up for precision.

"One should never allow one's education to interfere with one's learning"..... Mark Twain

"It is a miracle that one's intuitions can survive one's formal education"..... Albert Einstein

Gulnara. You speak of the interconnectedness of all things which is definitely the direction of modern thinkers such as Fritjof Capra and all the other developing branches of process philosophy. If we think of the universe as that which is itself becoming we can see it more clearly as a sequence of events emerging in time rather than a collection of objects moving in space. This is the central plank of the philosophy of the bloody obvious, a cheeky title for my work which I have no intention of changing. If you manage to get where I'm coming from you'll see exactly why.

Regards Leo
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Present awareness »

If you were to observe the Earth from the right position in outer space, you would see half the Earth in light and half the Earth in shadow or darkness. Since the entire Earth is in the present moment, you would be able to see someone on the light side and someone on the dark side at the same time. If someone one the light side, phoned someone on the dark side, they would both be talking in the present moment. However, the human concept of time says that they are 12 hours apart in time. One is on the beach at noon and the other is in bed at midnight. But the reality is they are both in the present moment. The concept of time is a covenient way of measuring change from light to dark, day to night, but no matter what time we say it is, we will always still be in the present moment.
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Re: Does time move?

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What an external observer observes is meaningless in the scenario you paint. Let me illustrate this point. Imagine both people on the planet pick up their phones at the same time. Only an observer who is equidistant from them both will observe this simultaneity, which can only ever be approximate. Any other observer in the universe will see one party pick up the phone before the other. However the simultaneity is entirely illusory even for the people speaking to each other on the phone. There is always a finite interval of time between one person speaking and the other receiving the message, even if they're standing right next to each other. This interval is measurable and calculable and has a finite value. It's perfectly correct to say that each person exists in his own moment Now but it's utterly illusory to suggest that those individual moments Now are in any sense simultaneous. Special Relativity can relate these moments via a mathematical artifice called co-ordinate time and SR can also relate what different observers will observe via a mathematical artifice called a Lorentz transformation. Neither of these mathematical processes refer to the real world because the laws of physics are quite unequivocal on this matter. No matter how close the two people on the planet manage to get to each other they will always be separated by a finite interval of time. This is true all the way down to the sub-atomic level.

Regards Leo
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Present awareness
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Present awareness »

Obvious Leo wrote:What an external observer observes is meaningless in the scenario you paint. Let me illustrate this point. Imagine both people on the planet pick up their phones at the same time. Only an observer who is equidistant from them both will observe this simultaneity, which can only ever be approximate. Any other observer in the universe will see one party pick up the phone before the other. However the simultaneity is entirely illusory even for the people speaking to each other on the phone. There is always a finite interval of time between one person speaking and the other receiving the message, even if they're standing right next to each other. This interval is measurable and calculable and has a finite value. It's perfectly correct to say that each person exists in his own moment Now but it's utterly illusory to suggest that those individual moments Now are in any sense simultaneous. Special Relativity can relate these moments via a mathematical artifice called co-ordinate time and SR can also relate what different observers will observe via a mathematical artifice called a Lorentz transformation. Neither of these mathematical processes refer to the real world because the laws of physics are quite unequivocal on this matter. No matter how close the two people on the planet manage to get to each other they will always be separated by a finite interval of time. This is true all the way down to the sub-atomic level.

Regards Leo
You are absolutely right Leo, and this is where space/time comes into play. Even though it is the present moment everywhere in the universe at the same time, it it's separated by space. And because there is "space" it takes "time" to reach a different point in the present moment. During the time it takes for the phone call to reach the other person, neither person, at any point during that time, has left the present moment.
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Newme
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Newme »

Leo,

For a while, I've realized that "truth is in perspective" and the overwhelming influence of subjectivity. I don't just take your word for it. Still, I never applied such to the notion of time before, so it's interesting and I do want to learn more about metaphysics.

You may not be aware, but there are other punishments for heretics now (I should know). :lol: Maybe a similar rule applies to both religious and scientific dogma... to only search in the easiest places to look. It's like the analogy of someone losing their keys in another place, but only looking where the light shines, simply because it's easier to look there. Some things, when explored, seem to become more messy and full of paradox, and it's easier and simpler to just look to what seems obvious (which is often determined by tradition), even when it ignores substantial influences.

Thanks for the quotes... One for you my Dear: "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift." -Albert Einstein
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Misty
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Misty »

Present awareness wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:What an external observer observes is meaningless in the scenario you paint. Let me illustrate this point. Imagine both people on the planet pick up their phones at the same time. Only an observer who is equidistant from them both will observe this simultaneity, which can only ever be approximate. Any other observer in the universe will see one party pick up the phone before the other. However the simultaneity is entirely illusory even for the people speaking to each other on the phone. There is always a finite interval of time between one person speaking and the other receiving the message, even if they're standing right next to each other. This interval is measurable and calculable and has a finite value. It's perfectly correct to say that each person exists in his own moment Now but it's utterly illusory to suggest that those individual moments Now are in any sense simultaneous. Special Relativity can relate these moments via a mathematical artifice called co-ordinate time and SR can also relate what different observers will observe via a mathematical artifice called a Lorentz transformation. Neither of these mathematical processes refer to the real world because the laws of physics are quite unequivocal on this matter. No matter how close the two people on the planet manage to get to each other they will always be separated by a finite interval of time. This is true all the way down to the sub-atomic level.

Regards Leo
You are absolutely right Leo, and this is where space/time comes into play. Even though it is the present moment everywhere in the universe at the same time, it it's separated by space. And because there is "space" it takes "time" to reach a different point in the present moment. During the time it takes for the phone call to reach the other person, neither person, at any point during that time, has left the present moment.
Isn't the "present moment" nothing more than a measure of time and can be also called the 'second or fraction thereof?' Time 'the morning and the evening, the seasons, days, etc. was made for mankind, but time itself is existence, before it is divided into increments for human convenience. God is time and humans were made in his image. God/Time is infinite.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

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Re: Does time move?

Post by Present awareness »

Isn't the "present moment" nothing more than a measure of time and can be also called the 'second or fraction thereof?'
In my view, the present moment is indivisible. Humans slice it up into seconds, minutes and hours, which is convenient. The moment before, the moment after etc., are very useful concepts for measuring change, but the present moment itself, never departs. All measurements of time, must begin in the present moment and extend either forward or backward. The reason why all measurements must begin from the present moment, is because the present moment itself, is the only time that actually exists. When they say the universe is 13.8 billion years old, that is it's age from the present moment.

How many seconds or fraction of a second does it take to get to the present moment? If the present moment is already here, then the answer would be zero.
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Since the conversation appears to have shifted from the physical to the theological there is little more I can add. However this statement is misleading.
Present awareness wrote: In my view, the present moment is indivisible. Humans slice it up into seconds, minutes and hours, which is convenient.
I agree that the present moment is indivisible but the slicing up you refer to is entirely arbitrary and has no meaning at the quantum level. In physics the minimum possible unit of time is physical and has a physical value. It is defined as the Planck interval and has a value of 5.4 x 10-44 seconds. Although I disagree with this value I don't disagree with the definition of what this value represents. It represents the minimum possible interval of time in which we can meaningfully say that something has actually happened and it supposedly represents the unit of time it takes light to travel one Planck length, a distance of 1.6 x 10-35 metres. There's an awful lot wrong with this Planck definition because it assumes a physical space and ignores gravity. Therefore it cannot be a constant as assumed, but the principle of the Planck interval is metaphysically sound even though its constant value is physically not.We can attach no meaning to an interval of time which is too brief for something to occur in it, but events occur a lot more slowly within black holes than they do in the intergalactic wilderness, where the speed of light is almost a real constant and not just so to a local observer. The Planck interval is thus a constant only in its own inertial frame.

I don't use the Planck interval in my spaceless modelling because it ignores GR, but I rely heavily on the notion of quantised time and its inconstancy as determined by gravity. Thus my model also has a minimum possible unit of time which I simply call the moment Now. It has a calculable numerical value but only in principle. In reality this value is an ever-moving feast because the duration of its existence is determined by gravity all the way down to the quantum level. Thus time and gravity are quantised equivalently and must therefore be regarded as two different expressions of the same thing. In other words quantum gravity is just another way of expressing quantum time.

It is the 3 dimensions of space which have made this concept so elusive for physics. If we remove them from the equations of relativity we make a clear distinction between the subjective world of the observer and the objective reality which is continuously coming into existence. We can't escape the simple fact that these are two different worlds and that 3D space only has meaning for the observer that observes it.

Regards Leo
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Re: Does time move?

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Spiral Out wrote:What is a lightyear? It is a distance relative to a fixed amount of time. It is a rate of change, in this case it is distance over time. Distance and time are two separate and independent vectors used to measure a rate of change.
Wilson wrote:Goodness, Spiral, you've switched over to the scientific definition of time.
How have I switched to the scientific definition of time? What is the scientific definition of time?

My statement still characterizes time as a perception (and thus a means to measure) of change (of state/condition). Time, by my definition, does not exist without an observer that is able to perceive and conceptualize it.

Time is a perception of ∆S (∆ = "change in" or "difference of" / S = "State" - change of state: a difference in sensory input and response, i.e. position, temperature, sound, light, color and thus emotion, thought, expression, etc.)

Time isn't a process, it's the perception of a process (∆S). Time itself doesn't exist, only the perception of the process of ∆S for which we have created an abstract measurement of.

Saying that "time" exists objectively and absent the observation thereof is like saying that "inches" exist objectively and absent the creators (and creation) of the system of measure that contains them. They are both abstract Human constructs (systems of measure).
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Re: Does time move?

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Time itself doesn't exist, only the perception of the process of ∆S for which we have created an abstract measurement of.
Well said Spiral.
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Misty »

Present awareness wrote:
Time itself doesn't exist, only the perception of the process of ∆S for which we have created an abstract measurement of.
Well said Spiral.
What would you call that which is between sun up and sun down, and sun down to sun up? Humans did not create days or seasons. Humans did not create any of those spaces, nor it's passing.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

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Re: Does time move?

Post by Present awareness »

Misty wrote:
Present awareness wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Well said Spiral.
What would you call that which is between sun up and sun down, and sun down to sun up? Humans did not create days or seasons. Humans did not create any of those spaces, nor it's passing.
We perceive change within the present moment, even though the present moment itself, does not change. It is always now. Memory of those perceived change, is what we call time. Time is a measurement, taken from the present moment (back or forward) to assist our memory, which is essential for survival. Our ancestors need to remember where the food was, where water was and where the cave was. Humans do not create perceptions, but we do remember them. Without memory, all there would ever be, is what is here now, in the present moment.
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