Does time move?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Raymond
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Raymond »

Steve3007 wrote: May 7th, 2014, 3:58 am Of course, the way that we come to the conclusion that those other bodies are engaged in predictable repetitive motion is by comparing them with other instances of predictability. Why, for example, do we consider the Earth to orbit the Sun in a predictable, regular fashion? How would we predict it? By comparing to other things that we regard as predictable.

If we say that we measure time by comparison with objects that undergo regular repetition then we have to define the term "regular repetition". It means: "doing the same thing at regular intervals in time". But how do we measure whether they're doing that? We're still trying to establish how we measure time.

I think, however we word it, our definitions always have a tendency to be circular. When Einstein defined time as: "what we measure with a clock", he invited the question: "What is a clock?". I don't know of any verbal answer to that question that doesn't involve using the word "time", or another word whose definition, in turn, uses the word time. (e.g: "an object that performs a repeated activity at regular intervals of time, like ticking").

Of course, we could point to a whole load of "clocks" and say: "whatever it is that those things have in common, that's a clock (The form of the clock, as Plato might put it)". Ultimately, I think, that is how we define our abstractions, whether they be "time" or any other generalized concepts. We create them by inducing from individual observations.
"
I think, however we word it, our definitions always have a tendency to be circular. When Einstein defined time as: "what we measure with a clock", he invited the question: "What is a clock?". I don't know of any verbal answer to that question that doesn't involve using the word "time", or another word whose definition, in turn, uses the word time. (e.g: "an object that performs a repeated activity at regular intervals of time, like ticking")."

A clock is a perfectly periodic process, which is a process of which the period time is constant. "Hey, period time! Circular?" No. Lemme explain.

A pendulum, for example, is not an ideal clock, as there is friction which diminishes the amplitude and the period time depends on the amplitude. If there would be no friction, no gravitational waves, no EM radiation, a constant gravitational field, a constant pendulum length, etc., then the pendulum could maybe be perfect, and that pendulum could be used like a perfect clock. Modern clocks give or take a second in a billion years or so! But a truly perfect periodic clock doesn't exist. It's an ideal.
AB1OB
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Re: Does time move?

Post by AB1OB »

Scientifically, we don't experience "time" because we exist in time as a position in a constant unilateral trajectory. (c = universal constant)

What we experience as time is the relative motions of co-moving existences in time.

The apparent speed of light is due to the differential expansion of "matter" (unilateral) and "light" (spherical).

So a real clock determines "c" or actually "c" defines "time" as the seed of existence.

Relative time is common duration that occurs over "c" defined time.
AB1OB
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Re: Does time move?

Post by AB1OB »

Speed (not seed) of existence = time
Raymond
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Raymond »

AB1OB wrote: April 10th, 2022, 9:10 am Speed (not seed) of existence = time
Time being the seed of existence is pretty accurate though!
AB1OB
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Re: Does time move?

Post by AB1OB »

Raymond wrote: April 10th, 2022, 8:07 pm
AB1OB wrote: April 10th, 2022, 9:10 am Speed (not seed) of existence = time
Time being the seed of existence is pretty accurate though!
👍

In my perspective, spacetime is the field of existence.
It consists of a circulation of fractals.
(Fractals of "matter/consciousness")

The spacetime field can grow/shrink depending on the circulation. (In other words, universe is finite but unbounded)

The act of circulation through spacetime field is Time.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Does time move?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: May 6th, 2014, 9:18 pm Think about it. What would we use to measure the movement of time? Time itself? I think that time is preoccupied.

If you don't use time, what then? What would qualify to measure the movement of time?

The rest of this is filler words.

PhilX
We have a built in preconception of what Time is. We instinctively believe that there is some separate Phenomenon in Physics that we call Time. We believe that this Time Phenomenon is continuously running and always has been running in the background of everything that happens in the Universe. But this is a mistaken Belief and has been disproved by modern theories of Physics and especially by Special Relativity and by Quantum Field Theory. These theories have shown that Time is nothing more than Relative relationships between Objects and Processes. There is no Absolute Time. The Time that we use is not Absolute Time, but rather it is always relative to some Reference Physical Process. References are things like the Number of rotations of the hand on a mechanical Stop Watch, the Number of Rotations of the Earth on its axis, or the Number of Oscillations of a Cesium Atomic Clock. Each of these References will have their own accuracy specifications with the Cesium Atomic Clock being the most accurate. There are new Optical Clocks coming on line that are supposedly more Accurate than the Cesium Atomic Clock, but I will stick with the decades "Tried and True" Cesium Atomic Clock for this discussion. Logically, Science has used the Cesium Atomic Clock as the Reference for all other References. But the Cesium Clock is just a Physical Process, so we have all the other References being Relative Processes to the Cesium Atomic Clock Process.

The upshot of all this is that Science does not use or know how to measure any kind of Absolute Time Phenomenon. It is always the Relative behavior of Physical Processes. This is the key to understanding that there is actually no such thing as an Absolute Time in Science or in the Universe. Science has discovered that Time as we think of it does not Exist. The Relative Time between Physical Processes is completely Local to the Physical Processes themselves. So we can say that before the Big Bang when there was supposedly no Matter, no Energy, and no Space, that there could not be any kind of Relative Time that was even Possible. Therefore, there was no Infinite Past, no Million Year Past, and not even a One Second Past, before the Big Bang. We actually should not even call the Relationship between Physical Processes, Relative Time. It is just a Relationship of the relative Numbers that are counted by the References. We can take the next step in this analysis and say there is no such thing as Time without specifying Absolute or Relative. A disappointing thing about the Non Existence of Time is that there is no possibility of Time Travel because there is nothing to go Back in and nothing to go Forward in.

Now let's consider Time from a Special Relativity point of view. First of all, Time is Not the Fourth Dimension of Space in spite of what the Science Snake Oil book writers say. Time plus the three dimensions of space form a mathematical four dimensional Manifold. Time is always given the index 0, and the three indexes of Space are given as 1, 2, and 3. If Time was considered to be the Fourth Dimension it would have been given an Index of 4 when they first formulated the equations. Time is simply a parameter that describes a particular behavior of Physical Matter. One of the most important results of Special Relativity is that Time slows down in a moving Frame. Even Cesium Atomic Clocks slow down. So a Cesium Clock on board the Space Station will run slower than a Cesium Atomic Clock on the ground. The knee jerk reaction to this is to say Time has slowed down. But all we know is that the Cesium Atomic Clock on the Station will register a smaller Number of Oscillations than the same Atomic Clock on the ground. But this only means that the Cesium Atomic Oscillations are slowed and it says nothing about what some Time concept is actually doing. It is the Relationship between the Number of Oscillations on the Station with the Number of Oscillations on the ground that is important. It is results like this that forced Scientists to realize that there is no Absolute Time Clock driving the Universe. If there was, then it would be impossible for Time to slow down on the Station and not on the ground. They realized that Time was not an independently Real Phenomenon that exists in the Universe. Time is always the result of Relationships between different Physical Processes. Without Physical Processes, Time does not even make any sense.
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Niebieskieucho
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Niebieskieucho »

It's amazing. 18 years old topic and not any concrete answer. The concept of time is as simple as the construction of a flail. Time is a concept as well as its synonyms, among others, movement, change. They autonomously do not exist. Does it make sense to say that movement, change, etc. exist? Both time and its synonyms must be related to physical objects in order not to be just a concept. Time must be of something in order it could exist, for any physical object/form of matter is in an incessent motion.

--
Those who admit to understanding relativity, automatically acknowledge understanding of nonsense
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Greatest I am
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Greatest I am »

I believe I can argue that time stretches.

We know light can be bent or curved by a gravity well or magnet.

Instead of a light cone or laser, for ease of understanding, see yourself in a car going around a curve.

Your inside wheels will not go as far as your outside wheels.

The difference in rotation of wheels is extra or gained distance and time.

Back in a beam of light. if I was in it as it bends, the stretching space might be used to add extra data, but it likely disappears somehow when the bean straightens out.

I did talk to some in a physics forum but got nowhere.

At least no one killed my theory.

Regards
DL
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Niebieskieucho
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Niebieskieucho »

Greatest I am wrote: December 17th, 2022, 10:32 am I believe I can argue that time stretches.
If so, can its synononyms (also concepts) such as eg movement/change stretch?
The difference in rotation of wheels is extra or gained distance and time.
For time to exist, it must have an owner. In other words, its owners are physical objects/matter (for physical objects are in incessent motion).
Back in a beam of light. if I was in it as it bends, the stretching space might be used to add extra data, but it likely disappears somehow when the bean straightens out.
It's irrational. Space (physical reality) does not undergo streching/curvaure/deflection.

Regards
nu
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Sculptor1
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: May 6th, 2014, 9:18 pm Think about it. What would we use to measure the movement of time? Time itself? I think that time is preoccupied.

If you don't use time, what then? What would qualify to measure the movement of time?

The rest of this is filler words.

PhilX
If you think time moves; where does it go?
What happens when it leaves where it is, and what happens when it gets there?
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Greatest I am
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Greatest I am »

Niebieskieucho wrote: December 18th, 2022, 3:56 pm
Greatest I am wrote: December 17th, 2022, 10:32 am I believe I can argue that time stretches.
If so, can its synononyms (also concepts) such as eg movement/change stretch?
The difference in rotation of wheels is extra or gained distance and time.
For time to exist, it must have an owner. In other words, its owners are physical objects/matter (for physical objects are in incessent motion).
Back in a beam of light. if I was in it as it bends, the stretching space might be used to add extra data, but it likely disappears somehow when the bean straightens out.
It's irrational. Space (physical reality) does not undergo streching/curvaure/deflection.

Regards
nu
It is logical.

The curving and refraction of light is well known.

If you are to ignore or not accept known science, you will not be useful for the unknown.

Regards
DL
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Niebieskieucho
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Niebieskieucho »

Greatest I am wrote: December 19th, 2022, 11:13 am The curving and refraction of light is well known.
I didn't question it.
Regards,
nu
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Greatest I am
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Greatest I am »

Niebieskieucho wrote: December 20th, 2022, 5:27 am
Greatest I am wrote: December 19th, 2022, 11:13 am The curving and refraction of light is well known.
I didn't question it.
Regards,
nu
Your "irrational" made me think you were questioning something.

You are correct that refraction is well known.

No one has studied the stretching of spacetime created by it doing so.

At least I have nor seen any science and no one in a physics forum could add to this issue.

Regards
DL
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Niebieskieucho
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Niebieskieucho »

Greatest I am wrote: December 20th, 2022, 12:10 pm No one has studied the stretching of spacetime created by it doing so.
At least I have nor seen any science and no one in a physics forum could add to this issue.
As I mentioned earlier, space is a physical reality and time is a concept. They do not marry. Thus, there is no such a thing as spacetime, which is an irrational idea. I divide science into:
- mainstream science part of it belongs to mainsewage science, ie irrational one
- and entirely rational science, in which there is no place for irrational ideas.

--
I had a dream that was over the moon, but when I woke up, I was still down to earth
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Greatest I am
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Re: Does time move?

Post by Greatest I am »

Niebieskieucho wrote: December 21st, 2022, 6:41 pm
Greatest I am wrote: December 20th, 2022, 12:10 pm No one has studied the stretching of spacetime created by it doing so.
At least I have nor seen any science and no one in a physics forum could add to this issue.
As I mentioned earlier, space is a physical reality and time is a concept. They do not marry. Thus, there is no such a thing as spacetime, which is an irrational idea. I divide science into:
- mainstream science part of it belongs to mainsewage science, ie irrational one
- and entirely rational science, in which there is no place for irrational ideas.

--
I had a dream that was over the moon, but when I woke up, I was still down to earth
Delusional thinking or misuse of English.

Saying every physicist is wrong, without even an equation or decent theory - 0 credibility, ------

Slap yourself with a bit of space, and let all the media know if its physicality hurts or not.

Regards
DL
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