Expansion

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
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Nameless1995
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Expansion

Post by Nameless1995 »

If the universe is finite then beyond the universe there must be nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Can you imagine absolute nothing? Yes by not imagining at all. Imagine nothing = not imagining. Now if there is absolute nothing outside universe, then how can the universe expand? Where is it getting the free space to expand?
Obvious Leo
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Re: Expansion

Post by Obvious Leo »

An excellent question for which physics has no answer. That space is a physical medium with physical properties is a proposition which contradicts millennia of metaphysics and yet the physicists still cling to it tenaciously. Even after the Michelson-Morley experiments comprehensively debunked the notion of the luminiferous aether they still weren't buying it. They simple replaced the medium of space with the medium of the geometry of space, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. It's scarcely any wonder that their models make no sense.

Regards Leo
Vijaydevani
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Re: Expansion

Post by Vijaydevani »

Nameless1995 wrote:If the universe is finite then beyond the universe there must be nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Can you imagine absolute nothing? Yes by not imagining at all. Imagine nothing = not imagining. Now if there is absolute nothing outside universe, then how can the universe expand? Where is it getting the free space to expand?
I think what it means is that space is all that where the laws of this universe we occupy, apply. Beyond it, the laws of the universe do not apply. So from our reference frame "beyond" is unapproachable and no information of the beyond can reach us or be of use to us. So it is nothing because what it is actually is irrelevant to us and therefore the equivalent of nothing. At least that is what I think it means.

I am not much of a science guy but this is how I think of it. If we were to hypothetically reach the end of the universe, and be able to travel faster than the expansion with our torch light beaming out in front of us, at the edge of the universe the light would simply turn towards where the laws of science had reached, we would also turn to where laws of science existed and we would still see the beam as going straight. We would end up turning and not even know it, wondering when we would reach the edge.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Expansion

Post by Obvious Leo »

It makes better sense to think of the boundary of the universe as a time rather than a place. Obviously this time is therefore the present moment because beyond the present moment nothing yet exists. The state of nothingness beyond our universe is the future which is yet to be made but we also leave a state of nothingness behind us since the past no longer exists either. Thus the boundary of the universe is impossible to observe because you're on it.

Regards Leo
Vijaydevani
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Re: Expansion

Post by Vijaydevani »

Obvious Leo wrote:It makes better sense to think of the boundary of the universe as a time rather than a place. Obviously this time is therefore the present moment because beyond the present moment nothing yet exists. The state of nothingness beyond our universe is the future which is yet to be made but we also leave a state of nothingness behind us since the past no longer exists either. Thus the boundary of the universe is impossible to observe because you're on it.

Regards Leo
Oh, I am reading and re-reading what you have written in "how can an infinite universe have origins?". I think what you say is brilliant, though I do not understand quite a lot of it. I am trying, though, but till I understand what you say and it makes sense to me, I have to go by what makes sense right now ( in an "out of my depth but making sense of it" kind of way) and that is what I have expressed.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Expansion

Post by Obvious Leo »

Making sense is not a highly valued imperative in the world of physics but we Aussies set great store by it. In fact I'm convinced that god invented beer solely to stop the Aussies from ruling the world.

Regards Leo
Vijaydevani
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Re: Expansion

Post by Vijaydevani »

Obvious Leo wrote:Making sense is not a highly valued imperative in the world of physics but we Aussies set great store by it. In fact I'm convinced that god invented beer solely to stop the Aussies from ruling the world.

Regards Leo
hahaha
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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Siphersh
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Re: Expansion

Post by Siphersh »

Nameless1995 wrote:If the universe is finite then beyond the universe there must be nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Can you imagine absolute nothing? Yes by not imagining at all. Imagine nothing = not imagining. Now if there is absolute nothing outside universe, then how can the universe expand? Where is it getting the free space to expand?
I'm pretty sure that the expansion of the Universe doesn't mean the expansion of matter. It means the expansion of space.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Expansion

Post by Obvious Leo »

Siphersh wrote:It means the expansion of space.
How do you reckon this might happen? Does empty space just spread itself out a bit and if so how far can it spread itself out before it gets too empty? Perhaps new bits of empty space just pop into existence to fill in the gaps. How does nothingness expand and contract and twist and curve? The very proposition is metaphysically nonsensical.

Regards Leo
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Siphersh
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Re: Expansion

Post by Siphersh »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Siphersh wrote:It means the expansion of space.
How do you reckon this might happen? Does empty space just spread itself out a bit and if so how far can it spread itself out before it gets too empty? Perhaps new bits of empty space just pop into existence to fill in the gaps. How does nothingness expand and contract and twist and curve? The very proposition is metaphysically nonsensical.

Regards Leo
You seem to think about space as if it was matter. Space is not matter. It's distance. There's something wrong with your metaphysics if it expects space to be some kind of a substance.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Expansion

Post by Obvious Leo »

There's nothing at all wrong with my metaphysics and you're simply expressing the very point I'm trying to make. Space is not a physical entity and therefore can have no physical properties. There is no system of mechanics which can account for all the miraculous feats it is credited with performing, and this has been repeatedly proven by experiment. Space is solely relational and therefore can have no role to play in an ontologically kosher physical model of our universe. It is nothing more than a confected co-ordinate system to describe the observations of an observer and this is precisely what the epistemic models of physics are designed to do. They do not describe the real world but the observed world. Every major school of philosophy since the pre-Socratics has understood this perfectly well but for some reason physics has been a bit slow to catch on. This is a major oversight because since the speed of light is finite the observed world no longer exists in its observed form. Thus space is being deployed to describe a non existent entity. This is metaphysics 101.

Regards Leo
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Siphersh
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Re: Expansion

Post by Siphersh »

I don't think that anyone believes that space is an entity. It's geometry, as described by the theory of general relativity. It's an abstract description of how stuff, like light gets from one place to another, as observed. Its expansion and curving is well defined in those geometrical terms. Physicists don't believe that it's anything more than geometry. It's defined by physics as geometry, and nothing more.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Expansion

Post by Obvious Leo »

I've been studying physics for forty years, my friend, and I'm well attuned to what you're saying. In effect you're simply agreeing with me and saying that space is a mathematical abstraction from an epistemic paradigm. Thus to say that the universe is spatially expanding is to make a mathematical statement, not a physical one. This is the point I was trying to get across to those with only a passing interest in physics who may be confused by the notion of an expanding space, which is not to be taken literally. I just wish somebody would tell the physicists.

Regards Leo
Steve3007
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Re: Expansion

Post by Steve3007 »

Leo: Picking some key phrases from your last post:
Space is solely relational and therefore can have no role to play in an ontologically kosher physical model of our universe.
They do not describe the real world but the observed world.
Thus space is being deployed to describe a non existent entity.
Over the course of several posts you've set out your stall on what you see as the inadequacy of physics being merely a set of epistemic models - your complaint that it lacks an ontology. But, I may have missed it, but I haven't yet spotted anywhere where you've defined what it means for an entity to "exist", what it means for a physical model to be "ontologically kosher" and how one goes about making a clear distinction between descriptions of the "real world" and descriptions of the "observed world".

When you first started posting here I had high hopes. But you didn't answer any of my objections to your initial posts. Your subsequent posts sometimes seem, on the face of it, to be quite close to the simple: "I object to the widely accepted models of science simply because they are widely accepted so therefore they must be dogma" view that we get from many, many posters very regularly on the science section of this forum - the Galileo Syndrome, as I like to think of it. i.e. the view that maverick views are right simply because they are maverick views, and the more they're criticized the more this shows that they're being suppressed by "the man" and so must be true. Often this view is grounded in a straightforward lack of understanding of what these standard models actually say, often combined with a pre-existing distaste for the perceived consequences of a particular aspect of the science.

In your case, this last part doesn't seem to be the case. So it would be interesting to investigate further.
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Nameless1995
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Re: Expansion

Post by Nameless1995 »

Siphersh wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


How do you reckon this might happen? Does empty space just spread itself out a bit and if so how far can it spread itself out before it gets too empty? Perhaps new bits of empty space just pop into existence to fill in the gaps. How does nothingness expand and contract and twist and curve? The very proposition is metaphysically nonsensical.

Regards Leo
You seem to think about space as if it was matter. Space is not matter. It's distance. There's something wrong with your metaphysics if it expects space to be some kind of a substance.
Distance can only increase if matters move away from each other, no? The distance between A and B can only increase and A and B moves away from each other. But how can A and B move away if there is nowhere to move. How exactly can free space expand? Is there some practical non-hypothetical example?

If some particles forming a boundary moves apart then it may be said that the space inside the boundary expands but the particles could only move because there were free space to move. Is there any example of really creation of new space which is not just re-positioning of matters and stuffs?
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