Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
- Philosophy Explorer
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Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Also with dark energy, within our solar system, it doesn't seem to operate while gravity does and gravity helps to keep our planets in orbit about our Sun.
Can anybody add to this?
PhilX
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Dark Energy is only a label. No one knows what it actually is. There is even a very compelling recent theory that our observations are a misinterpretation of an anomalous feature of local space-time, so that there is actually no such thing as Dark Energy. And there is indeed at least one robust formalism of Dark Energy as a 5th force of Nature: physicist John Moffat's Modified Gravity (MOG). Under MOG, Dark Energy is a repulsive force, far weaker than gravity but whose range exceeds even gravity's range. This is why it only manifests at cosmic scales, needing billions of years to finally obtain the necessary scale to overcome gravity and begin accelerating the universe's expansion. MOG is one of the only formalisms of Dark Energy that is actually scientifically testable, although the experiments would take many years and millions of dollars to conduct.
- Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
PhilX
Edit: I found this website that explains that, hypothetically, it would take only one more dimension to weaken gravity. But it doesn't explain why it wouldn't happen to dark energy nor electromagnetism.
Here's the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/phys ... -weakling/
PhilX
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
As A Poster He Or I pointed out, the reason why gravity and dark energy are labelled differently is because of their origins in the history of physics. We have different and perhaps misleading ideas originating from classical physics about what the words "force" and "energy" mean.
- Rr6
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Fermionic matter and bosonic forces are spirit-2, physical/energy aka an occupied space reality i.e observed time, that we associate with frequency and specifically sine-wave ^v^v or \/\/\/ patterned frequencies.Steve3007 wrote:I think this is an interesting topic to bring back to life because it highlights how misleading labels can be.
As A Poster He Or I pointed out, the reason why gravity and dark energy are labelled differently is because of their origins in the history of physics. We have different and perhaps misleading ideas originating from classical physics about what the words "force" and "energy" mean.
Gravity, a property of space-time is spirit-3.
Dark energy, speculated by me as another property of space-time is spirit-4
( Space ) - ^Time v - ) Space (
Occupied space gravity I speculate is positive shaped curvature ( ) see outer surface of torus
Occupied space observe time has associated frequency ^v^v or as \/\/ see inside body of torus
Occupied space dark energy I speculate is negative shaped curvature )( see inner
surface of torus.
( >^v< )( >v^< )
That is pretty much the simple version of our finite, occupied space Universe. For more complex involvement see my top-to-bottom, cosmic hierarchy.
None have ever added to or invalidated my givens with any rational, logical common sense explanations.
r6
- Atreyu
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Apparently, the OP doesn't understand that force is merely the application/manifestation of energy. Energy is force, either active force, or at least potential force.
So "dark energy" is indeed a force, causing expansion which opposes and apparently overcomes the counter-force of gravity. Whether or not the term "energy" or "force" is used depends mainly on the context of the discussion - Are we talking about the manifestation of some energetic configuration (force), or are we talking about the "thing" or "apparatus" which we theorize to be behind the force we see being manifested (energy)? ....
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
It is misleading, I think, to say that.Apparently, the OP doesn't understand that force is merely the application/manifestation of energy. Energy is force, either active force, or at least potential force.
Force and energy may be difficult quantities to visualize but they are fairly straightforward to define mathematically. For example, force is mass multiplied by acceleration (F = ma) and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Newton. Classical kinetic energy is 1/2mv2 and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Joule.
To say that "force is merely the application/manifestation of energy" is, in my view, too woolly and vague to mean anything. To say that force is energy or energy is force is simply factually incorrect if you're using the standard definitions of those words.
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
After he is gone then maybe physics will get back to reality and his squawking will be forgotten again.
One can only hope.
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
You've certainly hit the ground of these forums running and are a prolific poster! A brief sample of your posts shows that you seem to have a particular animosity towards Stephen Hawking, for some reason. Is there something specific that he has said that has wound you up? Or is it just his general demeanor?
- Rr6
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Ionizing radiation is called radio-active yet has nothing to do with radios. Scientists are not the leader of philosophical truth i.e. they do care about absolute truths being expressed in rational, logical common sense to the general public.Philosophy Explorer wrote:It would seem that dark energy is the opposite of gravity where gravity pulls and dark energy pushes. Yet gravity is described as a force while dark energy is described as...well, energy.
Also with dark energy, within our solar system, it doesn't seem to operate while gravity does and gravity helps to keep our planets in orbit about our Sun.Can anybody add to this?
PhilX
This aids in keeping general public dumb and off the backs of scientists who want to be left alone to focus on their specialization explorations, while the leave generalized expose for us philosophers to pass on in rational logical common sense manner. Were doing piss poor job at passing on the truth. imho
Gravity is a phenomena that is considered as a property of space-time.
Dark energy is a phenomena that has yet to be classified by scientist, yet it makes sense that it is a 2nd property of space-time ergo, I believe the eventual correct expression should be Space - Time - Space.
See my bottom to top cosmic heirarchy involving spatiality of a torus with a body defined by inversions as observed time/frequency sine-wave pattern.
( >^v< )( >v^< )
This is basic view of much more complex scenarios that leads too;
OO OO = ustable and short live mesons i.e. four great toroidal tubes = a meson { strong nuclear force/boson } ergo two quarks
...4 great circles define the unstable/short lived vector equlirbrium. See link
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... f5511.html
OO = quark i.e. 360 degrees plus 360 degrees = 720 degrees.
...in above link take note that 6 great circles involve hadrons ( proton or neutron composed of 3 quarks i.e. OO OO OO )......
720 degrees is the total surface angle of a tetra{4}hedron
The minimal circle is a triangle and two triangles synergetically combine as a tetrahedron. See link.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... f0801.html
Inversions >< from surface gravity and dark energy arcs, as the body of observed time ^v^v or as \/\ + /\/ can also be mathematically correlated as 2^2 = 4
r6
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Hawking's main crime against science is his many prolific unfathomable ideas, which is similar to Aristotle in scope, by which all further study is stifled.Steve3007 wrote:YIOSTHEOY:
You've certainly hit the ground of these forums running and are a prolific poster! A brief sample of your posts shows that you seem to have a particular animosity towards Stephen Hawking, for some reason. Is there something specific that he has said that has wound you up? Or is it just his general demeanor?
The only solution for this present situation is for Hawking to go the way of all the Earth, and disappear, and then for new and brighter physicists to appear who do their research first before they come up with their own crazy models.
With Hawking gone there will be no one left to be his cheerleader, and he will then soon be forgotten, together with his ideas.
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Yes, obviously the two terms are defined differently in science. I was merely showing how, philosophically speaking, they can be reduced to two different aspects of the same thing. When this Something is active and manifest to our senses, we say "a force is acting" or "a force is being applied", and when this Something is not being manifest to our senses, but we are referring to it conceptually, we speak about "energy". If a certain quantity of energy is said to be present, then a certain amount of potential force is also said to be present.Steve3007 wrote:Atreyu:It is misleading, I think, to say that.Apparently, the OP doesn't understand that force is merely the application/manifestation of energy. Energy is force, either active force, or at least potential force.
Force and energy may be difficult quantities to visualize but they are fairly straightforward to define mathematically. For example, force is mass multiplied by acceleration (F = ma) and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Newton. Classical kinetic energy is 1/2mv2 and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Joule.
To say that "force is merely the application/manifestation of energy" is, in my view, too woolly and vague to mean anything. To say that force is energy or energy is force is simply factually incorrect if you're using the standard definitions of those words.
The idea is that when scientists speak of "dark energy", they are merely referring to the energy that theoretically must be present in order for the force of accelerating expansion to be applicable, which it apparently is. Just like mass (E=MC2) is the "energy" which also must theoretically exist in order for the force of gravity to be applicable, which it also apparently is.
The OP was merely confused because he 's falsely assuming no corresponding force is associated with dark energy, and that no corresponding energy is associated with the force of gravity. But in both cases, the corresponding energy or force is indeed assumed to exist....
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
"Force" is the application of "energy".Atreyu wrote:Yes, obviously the two terms are defined differently in science. I was merely showing how, philosophically speaking, they can be reduced to two different aspects of the same thing. When this Something is active and manifest to our senses, we say "a force is acting" or "a force is being applied", and when this Something is not being manifest to our senses, but we are referring to it conceptually, we speak about "energy". If a certain quantity of energy is said to be present, then a certain amount of potential force is also said to be present.Steve3007 wrote:Atreyu:
(Nested quote removed.)
It is misleading, I think, to say that.
Force and energy may be difficult quantities to visualize but they are fairly straightforward to define mathematically. For example, force is mass multiplied by acceleration (F = ma) and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Newton. Classical kinetic energy is 1/2mv2 and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Joule.
To say that "force is merely the application/manifestation of energy" is, in my view, too woolly and vague to mean anything. To say that force is energy or energy is force is simply factually incorrect if you're using the standard definitions of those words.
The idea is that when scientists speak of "dark energy", they are merely referring to the energy that theoretically must be present in order for the force of accelerating expansion to be applicable, which it apparently is. Just like mass (E=MC2) is the "energy" which also must theoretically exist in order for the force of gravity to be applicable, which it also apparently is.
The OP was merely confused because he 's falsely assuming no corresponding force is associated with dark energy, and that no corresponding energy is associated with the force of gravity. But in both cases, the corresponding energy or force is indeed assumed to exist....
Energy alone can be potential or kinetic.
Until the potential energy is activated to a kinetic state it cannot exert force.
Physics is fairly precise about that.
Stephen Hawking on the other hand is mostly full of baloney. This is how he manages to confuse people. His baloney science (B/S for short) is similar in many respects to Aristotle's "crystal spheres".
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
Physics uses the words "force", "energy" and "work" in pretty pretty precise ways. It doesn't use them quite in the way you have, above. As we learned in high school physics, "work" is done whenever a force moves an object through a distance. The work done is the force multiplied by the distance moved in the direction of that force. Work, like energy, is measured in Joules. It is a measure of the transfer of energy."Force" is the application of "energy".
Energy alone can be potential or kinetic.
Until the potential energy is activated to a kinetic state it cannot exert force.
Physics is fairly precise about that.
All of these things are well defined functionally. It's only when we start to say things like "yes, but what is energy?" that we start to have inconclusive discussions, because we usually fail to define in advance with sufficient precision how we're using the word "is".
- Rr6
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Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?
I've been very clear, concise and precise. The problem lies with those who cannot accept truth when it is presented to them in clear, concise and precise definitions ergo most refined.Steve3007 wrote:All of these things are well defined functionally. It's only when we start to say things like "yes, but what is energy?" that we start to have inconclusive discussions, because we usually fail to define in advance with sufficient precision how we're using the word "is".
Physical/energy = fermions, bosons and any aggregate collection there of atom, molecules, chairs animals etc....
Physical/energy occupies space.
Physical/energy = observed time as sine-wave frequency ^v^v or as \/\/\/\/\/
Physical/energy = our observed reality.
Spirit-2 = physical/energy
Spirit-3 = gravity
Spirit-4 = dark energy.
The truth is out there for those who seek it, for those who don't seek it, and for those who scoff at it.
Not many around here seek it, some around here scoff at it,and others have no idea what truth is.
r6
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