Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

It would seem that dark energy is the opposite of gravity where gravity pulls and dark energy pushes. Yet gravity is described as a force while dark energy is described as...well, energy.

Also with dark energy, within our solar system, it doesn't seem to operate while gravity does and gravity helps to keep our planets in orbit about our Sun.

Can anybody add to this?

PhilX
A Poster He or I
Posts: 1104
Joined: March 18th, 2011, 4:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Anaximander

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by A Poster He or I »

Gravity is called a force only because classical physics thought only in terms of forces rather than in more modern metaphors. When gravity is approached via non-classical formalisms such as QM, it is defined in terms of particle interactions (gravitons), not in terms of forces (forces don't exist in QM).

Dark Energy is only a label. No one knows what it actually is. There is even a very compelling recent theory that our observations are a misinterpretation of an anomalous feature of local space-time, so that there is actually no such thing as Dark Energy. And there is indeed at least one robust formalism of Dark Energy as a 5th force of Nature: physicist John Moffat's Modified Gravity (MOG). Under MOG, Dark Energy is a repulsive force, far weaker than gravity but whose range exceeds even gravity's range. This is why it only manifests at cosmic scales, needing billions of years to finally obtain the necessary scale to overcome gravity and begin accelerating the universe's expansion. MOG is one of the only formalisms of Dark Energy that is actually scientifically testable, although the experiments would take many years and millions of dollars to conduct.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Interesting stuff A Poster. The only other mystery for me is why is gravity so weak? There's a hypothesis saying that may be due to a leak in upper dimensions sapping gravity's strength as one possible explanation. If so then why no effect on dark energy or electromagnetism under this hypothesis? Seems as if there may be more to this idea (you know, I haven't done internet research on this which I'll do right now).

PhilX

Edit: I found this website that explains that, hypothetically, it would take only one more dimension to weaken gravity. But it doesn't explain why it wouldn't happen to dark energy nor electromagnetism.

Here's the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/phys ... -weakling/

PhilX
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Steve3007 »

I think this is an interesting topic to bring back to life because it highlights how misleading labels can be.

As A Poster He Or I pointed out, the reason why gravity and dark energy are labelled differently is because of their origins in the history of physics. We have different and perhaps misleading ideas originating from classical physics about what the words "force" and "energy" mean.
User avatar
Rr6
Posts: 1034
Joined: April 5th, 2015, 2:20 pm
Favorite Philosopher: R. Bucky Fuller

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Rr6 »

Steve3007 wrote:I think this is an interesting topic to bring back to life because it highlights how misleading labels can be.
As A Poster He Or I pointed out, the reason why gravity and dark energy are labelled differently is because of their origins in the history of physics. We have different and perhaps misleading ideas originating from classical physics about what the words "force" and "energy" mean.
Fermionic matter and bosonic forces are spirit-2, physical/energy aka an occupied space reality i.e observed time, that we associate with frequency and specifically sine-wave ^v^v or \/\/\/ patterned frequencies.

Gravity, a property of space-time is spirit-3.

Dark energy, speculated by me as another property of space-time is spirit-4

( Space ) - ^Time v - ) Space (

Occupied space gravity I speculate is positive shaped curvature ( ) see outer surface of torus

Occupied space observe time has associated frequency ^v^v or as \/\/ see inside body of torus

Occupied space dark energy I speculate is negative shaped curvature )( see inner
surface of torus.

( >^v< )( >v^< )

That is pretty much the simple version of our finite, occupied space Universe. For more complex involvement see my top-to-bottom, cosmic hierarchy.

None have ever added to or invalidated my givens with any rational, logical common sense explanations.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Atreyu »

After that last post, I'll try to offer a bit of sanity here concerning this topic.

Apparently, the OP doesn't understand that force is merely the application/manifestation of energy. Energy is force, either active force, or at least potential force.

So "dark energy" is indeed a force, causing expansion which opposes and apparently overcomes the counter-force of gravity. Whether or not the term "energy" or "force" is used depends mainly on the context of the discussion - Are we talking about the manifestation of some energetic configuration (force), or are we talking about the "thing" or "apparatus" which we theorize to be behind the force we see being manifested (energy)? ....
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Steve3007 »

Atreyu:
Apparently, the OP doesn't understand that force is merely the application/manifestation of energy. Energy is force, either active force, or at least potential force.
It is misleading, I think, to say that.

Force and energy may be difficult quantities to visualize but they are fairly straightforward to define mathematically. For example, force is mass multiplied by acceleration (F = ma) and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Newton. Classical kinetic energy is 1/2mv2 and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Joule.

To say that "force is merely the application/manifestation of energy" is, in my view, too woolly and vague to mean anything. To say that force is energy or energy is force is simply factually incorrect if you're using the standard definitions of those words.
YIOSTHEOY
Posts: 383
Joined: May 25th, 2016, 5:34 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

All this is just more Stephen Hawking squawking. It makes little sense.

After he is gone then maybe physics will get back to reality and his squawking will be forgotten again.

One can only hope.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Steve3007 »

YIOSTHEOY:

You've certainly hit the ground of these forums running and are a prolific poster! A brief sample of your posts shows that you seem to have a particular animosity towards Stephen Hawking, for some reason. Is there something specific that he has said that has wound you up? Or is it just his general demeanor?
User avatar
Rr6
Posts: 1034
Joined: April 5th, 2015, 2:20 pm
Favorite Philosopher: R. Bucky Fuller

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Rr6 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:It would seem that dark energy is the opposite of gravity where gravity pulls and dark energy pushes. Yet gravity is described as a force while dark energy is described as...well, energy.
Also with dark energy, within our solar system, it doesn't seem to operate while gravity does and gravity helps to keep our planets in orbit about our Sun.Can anybody add to this?
PhilX
Ionizing radiation is called radio-active yet has nothing to do with radios. Scientists are not the leader of philosophical truth i.e. they do care about absolute truths being expressed in rational, logical common sense to the general public.

This aids in keeping general public dumb and off the backs of scientists who want to be left alone to focus on their specialization explorations, while the leave generalized expose for us philosophers to pass on in rational logical common sense manner. Were doing piss poor job at passing on the truth. imho

Gravity is a phenomena that is considered as a property of space-time.

Dark energy is a phenomena that has yet to be classified by scientist, yet it makes sense that it is a 2nd property of space-time ergo, I believe the eventual correct expression should be Space - Time - Space.

See my bottom to top cosmic heirarchy involving spatiality of a torus with a body defined by inversions as observed time/frequency sine-wave pattern.

( >^v< )( >v^< )

This is basic view of much more complex scenarios that leads too;

OO OO = ustable and short live mesons i.e. four great toroidal tubes = a meson { strong nuclear force/boson } ergo two quarks
...4 great circles define the unstable/short lived vector equlirbrium. See link

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... f5511.html

OO = quark i.e. 360 degrees plus 360 degrees = 720 degrees.
...in above link take note that 6 great circles involve hadrons ( proton or neutron composed of 3 quarks i.e. OO OO OO )......

720 degrees is the total surface angle of a tetra{4}hedron

The minimal circle is a triangle and two triangles synergetically combine as a tetrahedron. See link.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... f0801.html

Inversions >< from surface gravity and dark energy arcs, as the body of observed time ^v^v or as \/\ + /\/ can also be mathematically correlated as 2^2 = 4

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
YIOSTHEOY
Posts: 383
Joined: May 25th, 2016, 5:34 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Steve3007 wrote:YIOSTHEOY:

You've certainly hit the ground of these forums running and are a prolific poster! A brief sample of your posts shows that you seem to have a particular animosity towards Stephen Hawking, for some reason. Is there something specific that he has said that has wound you up? Or is it just his general demeanor?
Hawking's main crime against science is his many prolific unfathomable ideas, which is similar to Aristotle in scope, by which all further study is stifled.

The only solution for this present situation is for Hawking to go the way of all the Earth, and disappear, and then for new and brighter physicists to appear who do their research first before they come up with their own crazy models.

With Hawking gone there will be no one left to be his cheerleader, and he will then soon be forgotten, together with his ideas.
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Atreyu »

Steve3007 wrote:Atreyu:
Apparently, the OP doesn't understand that force is merely the application/manifestation of energy. Energy is force, either active force, or at least potential force.
It is misleading, I think, to say that.

Force and energy may be difficult quantities to visualize but they are fairly straightforward to define mathematically. For example, force is mass multiplied by acceleration (F = ma) and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Newton. Classical kinetic energy is 1/2mv2 and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Joule.

To say that "force is merely the application/manifestation of energy" is, in my view, too woolly and vague to mean anything. To say that force is energy or energy is force is simply factually incorrect if you're using the standard definitions of those words.
Yes, obviously the two terms are defined differently in science. I was merely showing how, philosophically speaking, they can be reduced to two different aspects of the same thing. When this Something is active and manifest to our senses, we say "a force is acting" or "a force is being applied", and when this Something is not being manifest to our senses, but we are referring to it conceptually, we speak about "energy". If a certain quantity of energy is said to be present, then a certain amount of potential force is also said to be present.

The idea is that when scientists speak of "dark energy", they are merely referring to the energy that theoretically must be present in order for the force of accelerating expansion to be applicable, which it apparently is. Just like mass (E=MC2) is the "energy" which also must theoretically exist in order for the force of gravity to be applicable, which it also apparently is.

The OP was merely confused because he 's falsely assuming no corresponding force is associated with dark energy, and that no corresponding energy is associated with the force of gravity. But in both cases, the corresponding energy or force is indeed assumed to exist....
YIOSTHEOY
Posts: 383
Joined: May 25th, 2016, 5:34 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Atreyu wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:Atreyu:

(Nested quote removed.)


It is misleading, I think, to say that.

Force and energy may be difficult quantities to visualize but they are fairly straightforward to define mathematically. For example, force is mass multiplied by acceleration (F = ma) and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Newton. Classical kinetic energy is 1/2mv2 and its M.K.S. unit of measurement is the Joule.

To say that "force is merely the application/manifestation of energy" is, in my view, too woolly and vague to mean anything. To say that force is energy or energy is force is simply factually incorrect if you're using the standard definitions of those words.
Yes, obviously the two terms are defined differently in science. I was merely showing how, philosophically speaking, they can be reduced to two different aspects of the same thing. When this Something is active and manifest to our senses, we say "a force is acting" or "a force is being applied", and when this Something is not being manifest to our senses, but we are referring to it conceptually, we speak about "energy". If a certain quantity of energy is said to be present, then a certain amount of potential force is also said to be present.

The idea is that when scientists speak of "dark energy", they are merely referring to the energy that theoretically must be present in order for the force of accelerating expansion to be applicable, which it apparently is. Just like mass (E=MC2) is the "energy" which also must theoretically exist in order for the force of gravity to be applicable, which it also apparently is.

The OP was merely confused because he 's falsely assuming no corresponding force is associated with dark energy, and that no corresponding energy is associated with the force of gravity. But in both cases, the corresponding energy or force is indeed assumed to exist....
"Force" is the application of "energy".

Energy alone can be potential or kinetic.

Until the potential energy is activated to a kinetic state it cannot exert force.

Physics is fairly precise about that.

Stephen Hawking on the other hand is mostly full of baloney. This is how he manages to confuse people. His baloney science (B/S for short) is similar in many respects to Aristotle's "crystal spheres".
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Steve3007 »

"Force" is the application of "energy".

Energy alone can be potential or kinetic.

Until the potential energy is activated to a kinetic state it cannot exert force.

Physics is fairly precise about that.
Physics uses the words "force", "energy" and "work" in pretty pretty precise ways. It doesn't use them quite in the way you have, above. As we learned in high school physics, "work" is done whenever a force moves an object through a distance. The work done is the force multiplied by the distance moved in the direction of that force. Work, like energy, is measured in Joules. It is a measure of the transfer of energy.

All of these things are well defined functionally. It's only when we start to say things like "yes, but what is energy?" that we start to have inconclusive discussions, because we usually fail to define in advance with sufficient precision how we're using the word "is".
User avatar
Rr6
Posts: 1034
Joined: April 5th, 2015, 2:20 pm
Favorite Philosopher: R. Bucky Fuller

Re: Why is gravity a force and dark energy is energy?

Post by Rr6 »

Steve3007 wrote:All of these things are well defined functionally. It's only when we start to say things like "yes, but what is energy?" that we start to have inconclusive discussions, because we usually fail to define in advance with sufficient precision how we're using the word "is".
I've been very clear, concise and precise. The problem lies with those who cannot accept truth when it is presented to them in clear, concise and precise definitions ergo most refined.

Physical/energy = fermions, bosons and any aggregate collection there of atom, molecules, chairs animals etc....

Physical/energy
occupies space.

Physical/energy = observed time as sine-wave frequency ^v^v or as \/\/\/\/\/

Physical/energy = our observed reality.

Spirit-2 = physical/energy

Spirit-3 = gravity

Spirit-4 = dark energy.

The truth is out there for those who seek it, for those who don't seek it, and for those who scoff at it.

Not many around here seek it, some around here scoff at it,and others have no idea what truth is.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021