Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

It's said about 68% of our universe is dark energy and about 27% is dark matter (source: http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/fo ... rk-energy/). It kind of makes you think. If so much of the universe is made up of this stuff, then why is it so hard to locate? It's similar to math where it's known that the vast majority of the real numbers is made up of nonalgebraic numbers except here some of these numbers have been identified (e.g. e and π). Maybe the scientists need more time to locate this stuff or maybe it'll never be located.

What say you to this? Just how dark is dark energy and dark matter?

PhilX
User avatar
Theophane
Posts: 2349
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Theophane »

Nobody really knows how big the universe is, do they? Or even if it's finite?

If it makes scientists say, "We don't know," it must be very dark indeed. Even if the darkness is metaphorical.
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5765
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

The concept of location often does not apply to intangible things. And it also may not apply when working outside of the scale that Newtonian physics offers a decent approximation, such as but not limited to many issues in quantum physics or the physics of things at energy scales like those around a black hole. Indeed, it seems that the 3-D space (plus a time dimension) model is an approximation that falls apart at those levels, revealing that space may actually be 2-D. Thus, asking where something is located in a 3-D space model does not make sense; like asking how far away from Santa Claus is one's located.

Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Scott asked,

"Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?"

These are questions for another thread. I'm only asking if we will ever find or locate the dark energy and dark matter (say, before the turn of the next century)?

PhilX

-- Updated July 16th, 2014, 10:01 pm to add the following --
Theophane wrote:Nobody really knows how big the universe is, do they? Or even if it's finite?

If it makes scientists say, "We don't know," it must be very dark indeed. Even if the darkness is metaphorical.
Don't know what you mean by "really knows." Since BBT, the best evidence points towards a finite universe. If anything has changed since I typed up this post, you can let me know.

PhilX
Last edited by Philosophy Explorer on July 17th, 2014, 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Atreyu »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:It's said about 68% of our universe is dark energy and about 27% is dark matter (source: http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/fo ... rk-energy/). It kind of makes you think. If so much of the universe is made up of this stuff, then why is it so hard to locate? It's similar to math where it's known that the vast majority of the real numbers is made up of nonalgebraic numbers except here some of these numbers have been identified (e.g. e and π). Maybe the scientists need more time to locate this stuff or maybe it'll never be located.

What say you to this? Just how dark is dark energy and dark matter?

PhilX
It will never be found for two reasons. One, it may not exist at all. It was only created by physicists to explain missing mass deduced by an increasing rate of expansion of the Universe. It's assumed that there must be some other matter to account for the mass that must be present to explain the increased acceleration, but in fact there are other explanations that do not require this.

The other reason, assuming there is missing matter, is that it's 'atoms' are too 'fine' to be recognized by science, even indirectly. This concept is difficult to understand, hence the quotations. In this model, 'atom' also means its smallest indivisible unit, just like in the ordinary concept of an 'atom', but these 'atoms' are composed of smaller particles than even the proton, neutron, and electron. So these 'atoms' do not correspond with the atoms of ordinary matter. This is what is meant by 'fine'. It's not a question of being too diffuse. That applies to the space between molecules or atoms. We can imagine a very diffuse space which may appear to be a vacuum, but is not and just appears so because the matter is so diffuse. But ordinary science could then ascertain that indeed there is a few molecules of some matter over a very wide range of space, hence only an apparent vacuum.

But 'fine' doesn't apply to the space between atoms. It applies to the atoms themselves. Many of these 'atoms' may be combined to equal the smallest known atom, Hydrogen. So by definition this kind of matter will probably always be unknown because there is an inherent limit to how 'small' or how 'micro' we can go in ordinary science. Quantum physics studies subatomic particles too small to be directly studied. And we can imagine dividing those subatomic particles ad infinitum. But there is a definite limit in ordinary science to how far we can subdivide ('go micro'), and this is what is meant by 'fine' matter. Its constituent fundamental parts are so small they are completely outside of the boundaries of ordinary investigation.
Obvious Leo
Posts: 2501
Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
Location: Australia

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

The latest breaking news on these questions is that dark energy is probably just a misunderstanding of the so-called cosmological constant. Curiously this fictitious constant was originally invented by Einstein to account for the fact that the universe wasn't expanding but when Hubble discovered otherwise it was quickly modified to account for the new evidence. In other words the cosmological constant can simultaneously explain why the universe is expanding and also why it's not, which says a lot for the conceptual flexibility of physicists but bugger-all about the nature of the cosmos because the value of this constant can never be explained, even in principle. The jury is still out on the question of dark matter and this one may not be so easily resolved. The stark fact is that under the spacetime paradigm the galactic masses are insufficient to keep them gravitationally bound. Either the galaxies are far more massive than they appear to be or else the spacetime paradigm is crap. Some of the illuminati are attempting to salvage their paradigm with a new gravitational model called modified Newtonian dynamics but they don't seem to be getting very far with it and it seems to be providing more questions than answers. Ultimately I'm sure we'll see both dark energy and dark matter disappear into the pages of physics history, there to join phlogiston and the luminiferous aether.

Regards Leo
User avatar
Spiral Out
Posts: 5014
Joined: June 26th, 2012, 10:22 am

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Spiral Out »

Since "dark matter" and "dark energy" don't really exist (as proposed) then it's highly unlikely that they will ever be found (as conceived).

What invariably will be found however is what the instrumentation that was designed to detect "dark matter" and "dark energy" is actually able to detect which will be a fundamentally non-translatable, and thus misinterpreted, manifestation of some other manner of phenomena which itself is inherently unknown and unknowable (due to the misapplication of the equipment), although it will inevitably be called "dark matter" or "dark energy" and thus be forced to fit where it cannot.

This is what science does.
Dedicated to the fine art of thinking.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Spiral Out wrote:Since "dark matter" and "dark energy" don't really exist (as proposed) then it's highly unlikely that they will ever be found (as conceived).

What invariably will be found however is what the instrumentation that was designed to detect "dark matter" and "dark energy" is actually able to detect which will be a fundamentally non-translatable, and thus misinterpreted, manifestation of some other manner of phenomena which itself is inherently unknown and unknowable (due to the misapplication of the equipment), although it will inevitably be called "dark matter" or "dark energy" and thus be forced to fit where it cannot.

This is what science does.
So skeptical which you proudly proclaim. If it were up to you, you'd probably eliminate this category. Let's see if your prediction holds any water.

PhilX
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5765
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:why is it [dark matter and dark energy] so hard to locate?
Scott wrote:The concept of location often does not apply to intangible things. [...]
Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?
Philosophy Explorer wrote: These are questions for another thread. I'm only asking if we will ever find or locate the dark energy and dark matter (say, before the turn of the next century)?
No, they are example questions that demonstrate the structural flaw with your question which all those questions and your titular question share.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Scott asks:

"Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?"

These are ridiculous questions. Let's take them one at a time:

Where is kinetic energy located? Kinetic energy of what? Please specify and you'll have your answer.

Where is solar energy located? Inside the moon. Prove me wrong.

Where is the gravitation force of the Moon located? Inside of the Sun. Prove me wrong on that one too.

PhilX
Obvious Leo
Posts: 2501
Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
Location: Australia

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Gravity is not a force and to think of it in such a Cartesian and reductionist way is completely wrong-headed. It's somewhat analogous to saying that energy is a force which tells us nothing about energy or forces. Gravity and energy are fundamental properties of the universe and are therefore irreducible. They can't be reduced to first principles because they ARE the first principles. Gravity simply determines the rate of change in the universe and that's ALL it does. The stronger the gravitational field the slower the rate of change so gravity is simply the inverse of time and nobody would dare say that time is a force.

Regards Leo
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Jklint »

Obvious Leo wrote:The stronger the gravitational field the slower the rate of change so gravity is simply the inverse of time and nobody would dare say that time is a force.
Well prior to being banned I would ask in any "process" which incorporates force - and I don't know of any process where that wouldn't apply - if time itself upon which any process is contingent also be a force if not prior at least simultaneous to the process in question.

In it's ability to create can it not be the most essential one? It could be that gravity does take precedence but without the time factor - the greatest abstraction of all - could gravity have the means to do its work? In denoting time as "the greatest abstraction of all" can it not be that at the lowest levels of abstraction - which is where the greatest probabilities of "Unification" exist - Time becomes the superset or core of all subsequent forces and perhaps as locally encountered, in turn modified by those so-called forces?

Also, can gravity be qualified as a first principle if we don't yet conclusively know what specifically causes it in the first place? Like Time, Gravity is still a mystery.

Just speculating because at this point or time there is no other option!
Obvious Leo
Posts: 2501
Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
Location: Australia

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Jklint wrote: Also, can gravity be qualified as a first principle if we don't yet conclusively know what specifically causes it in the first place?
I regard time and gravity as simply two different expressions of the same thing, namely the rate of change, and this defines gravity as the cosmic metronome. This was clearly established in General Relativity but its significance was overlooked, because by this time Special Relativity had been accepted as canonical doctrine and SR had effectively spatialised time out of existence by representing it as a spatial dimension. The resultant attempt to formulate gravity as a spatial construct has been woefully unsuccessful and thus physics has lumbered itself for a century with models which make no sense. If they're looking for a "cause" for gravity then they can look forward to another century of pedalling on the hamster wheel because this is simply cock-headed thinking. Although this is somewhat of an oversimplification it makes better sense to think of gravity as the causer rather than the causee.

Regards Leo
User avatar
Theophane
Posts: 2349
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Theophane »

Maybe not from three-dimensional space. Maybe DM/DE are shadows of other dimensions being cast into ours. It's like how time (4th dimension) cast a "shadow" into the 3D universe which allows us to "see" it (the effects of duration).
Obvious Leo
Posts: 2501
Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
Location: Australia

Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Theophane wrote: Maybe DM/DE are shadows of other dimensions being cast into ours
Occam would take a dim view at this notion of hypothesising the unverifiable when a simpler explanation is to hand. We already have three dimensions surplus to requirements so inventing more is unlikely to bear fruit, as the string theorists have discovered to their cost after forty years of mathematical chicanery.

Regards Leo
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021