Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
- Philosophy Explorer
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm
Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
What say you to this? Just how dark is dark energy and dark matter?
PhilX
- Theophane
- Posts: 2349
- Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
- Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
If it makes scientists say, "We don't know," it must be very dark indeed. Even if the darkness is metaphorical.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5765
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Philosophy Explorer
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
"Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?"
These are questions for another thread. I'm only asking if we will ever find or locate the dark energy and dark matter (say, before the turn of the next century)?
PhilX
-- Updated July 16th, 2014, 10:01 pm to add the following --
Don't know what you mean by "really knows." Since BBT, the best evidence points towards a finite universe. If anything has changed since I typed up this post, you can let me know.Theophane wrote:Nobody really knows how big the universe is, do they? Or even if it's finite?
If it makes scientists say, "We don't know," it must be very dark indeed. Even if the darkness is metaphorical.
PhilX
- Atreyu
- Posts: 1737
- Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
- Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
- Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
It will never be found for two reasons. One, it may not exist at all. It was only created by physicists to explain missing mass deduced by an increasing rate of expansion of the Universe. It's assumed that there must be some other matter to account for the mass that must be present to explain the increased acceleration, but in fact there are other explanations that do not require this.Philosophy Explorer wrote:It's said about 68% of our universe is dark energy and about 27% is dark matter (source: http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/fo ... rk-energy/). It kind of makes you think. If so much of the universe is made up of this stuff, then why is it so hard to locate? It's similar to math where it's known that the vast majority of the real numbers is made up of nonalgebraic numbers except here some of these numbers have been identified (e.g. e and π). Maybe the scientists need more time to locate this stuff or maybe it'll never be located.
What say you to this? Just how dark is dark energy and dark matter?
PhilX
The other reason, assuming there is missing matter, is that it's 'atoms' are too 'fine' to be recognized by science, even indirectly. This concept is difficult to understand, hence the quotations. In this model, 'atom' also means its smallest indivisible unit, just like in the ordinary concept of an 'atom', but these 'atoms' are composed of smaller particles than even the proton, neutron, and electron. So these 'atoms' do not correspond with the atoms of ordinary matter. This is what is meant by 'fine'. It's not a question of being too diffuse. That applies to the space between molecules or atoms. We can imagine a very diffuse space which may appear to be a vacuum, but is not and just appears so because the matter is so diffuse. But ordinary science could then ascertain that indeed there is a few molecules of some matter over a very wide range of space, hence only an apparent vacuum.
But 'fine' doesn't apply to the space between atoms. It applies to the atoms themselves. Many of these 'atoms' may be combined to equal the smallest known atom, Hydrogen. So by definition this kind of matter will probably always be unknown because there is an inherent limit to how 'small' or how 'micro' we can go in ordinary science. Quantum physics studies subatomic particles too small to be directly studied. And we can imagine dividing those subatomic particles ad infinitum. But there is a definite limit in ordinary science to how far we can subdivide ('go micro'), and this is what is meant by 'fine' matter. Its constituent fundamental parts are so small they are completely outside of the boundaries of ordinary investigation.
-
- Posts: 2501
- Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
- Location: Australia
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
Regards Leo
- Spiral Out
- Posts: 5014
- Joined: June 26th, 2012, 10:22 am
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
What invariably will be found however is what the instrumentation that was designed to detect "dark matter" and "dark energy" is actually able to detect which will be a fundamentally non-translatable, and thus misinterpreted, manifestation of some other manner of phenomena which itself is inherently unknown and unknowable (due to the misapplication of the equipment), although it will inevitably be called "dark matter" or "dark energy" and thus be forced to fit where it cannot.
This is what science does.
- Philosophy Explorer
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
So skeptical which you proudly proclaim. If it were up to you, you'd probably eliminate this category. Let's see if your prediction holds any water.Spiral Out wrote:Since "dark matter" and "dark energy" don't really exist (as proposed) then it's highly unlikely that they will ever be found (as conceived).
What invariably will be found however is what the instrumentation that was designed to detect "dark matter" and "dark energy" is actually able to detect which will be a fundamentally non-translatable, and thus misinterpreted, manifestation of some other manner of phenomena which itself is inherently unknown and unknowable (due to the misapplication of the equipment), although it will inevitably be called "dark matter" or "dark energy" and thus be forced to fit where it cannot.
This is what science does.
PhilX
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5765
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
Philosophy Explorer wrote:why is it [dark matter and dark energy] so hard to locate?
Scott wrote:The concept of location often does not apply to intangible things. [...]
Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?
No, they are example questions that demonstrate the structural flaw with your question which all those questions and your titular question share.Philosophy Explorer wrote: These are questions for another thread. I'm only asking if we will ever find or locate the dark energy and dark matter (say, before the turn of the next century)?
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
- Philosophy Explorer
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
"Where is kinetic energy located? Where is solar energy located? Where is the gravitational force of the Moon located?"
These are ridiculous questions. Let's take them one at a time:
Where is kinetic energy located? Kinetic energy of what? Please specify and you'll have your answer.
Where is solar energy located? Inside the moon. Prove me wrong.
Where is the gravitation force of the Moon located? Inside of the Sun. Prove me wrong on that one too.
PhilX
-
- Posts: 2501
- Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
- Location: Australia
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
Regards Leo
-
- Posts: 1719
- Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
Well prior to being banned I would ask in any "process" which incorporates force - and I don't know of any process where that wouldn't apply - if time itself upon which any process is contingent also be a force if not prior at least simultaneous to the process in question.Obvious Leo wrote:The stronger the gravitational field the slower the rate of change so gravity is simply the inverse of time and nobody would dare say that time is a force.
In it's ability to create can it not be the most essential one? It could be that gravity does take precedence but without the time factor - the greatest abstraction of all - could gravity have the means to do its work? In denoting time as "the greatest abstraction of all" can it not be that at the lowest levels of abstraction - which is where the greatest probabilities of "Unification" exist - Time becomes the superset or core of all subsequent forces and perhaps as locally encountered, in turn modified by those so-called forces?
Also, can gravity be qualified as a first principle if we don't yet conclusively know what specifically causes it in the first place? Like Time, Gravity is still a mystery.
Just speculating because at this point or time there is no other option!
-
- Posts: 2501
- Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
- Location: Australia
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
I regard time and gravity as simply two different expressions of the same thing, namely the rate of change, and this defines gravity as the cosmic metronome. This was clearly established in General Relativity but its significance was overlooked, because by this time Special Relativity had been accepted as canonical doctrine and SR had effectively spatialised time out of existence by representing it as a spatial dimension. The resultant attempt to formulate gravity as a spatial construct has been woefully unsuccessful and thus physics has lumbered itself for a century with models which make no sense. If they're looking for a "cause" for gravity then they can look forward to another century of pedalling on the hamster wheel because this is simply cock-headed thinking. Although this is somewhat of an oversimplification it makes better sense to think of gravity as the causer rather than the causee.Jklint wrote: Also, can gravity be qualified as a first principle if we don't yet conclusively know what specifically causes it in the first place?
Regards Leo
- Theophane
- Posts: 2349
- Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
- Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
-
- Posts: 2501
- Joined: April 28th, 2013, 10:03 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Omar Khayyam
- Location: Australia
Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?
Occam would take a dim view at this notion of hypothesising the unverifiable when a simpler explanation is to hand. We already have three dimensions surplus to requirements so inventing more is unlikely to bear fruit, as the string theorists have discovered to their cost after forty years of mathematical chicanery.Theophane wrote: Maybe DM/DE are shadows of other dimensions being cast into ours
Regards Leo
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023