Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Newme. Your post shows a generosity of spirit which does you credit but it seems rather naive to me.
Newme wrote: Has anybody defined God yet, or is just the most dysfunctional definition of God being exclusively focused on with blinders to the countless others?
I think this goes to the heart of the problem because there exists no such definition and billions of human lives have been needlessly wasted over the past couple of millennia to attest to this. It's not the atheists and humanists who must bear the responsibility for this because violent conduct is antithetical to the humanist ethic. I can think of plenty of conflicts where one gang of believers has turned on another because they believe the wrong thing but none where a gang of non-believers has turned on a gang of believers for believing.

Humanism is not founded on belief and thus humanists don't organise themselves into groups to proselytise their views and punish those that don't share them. Although they might argue with theists, and indeed mock them, they don't feel threatened by them and therefore feel no need to either attack them or defend themselves from them in a physical sense. Ironically the reverse is also true because theists reserve their worst excesses for other theists and not for the atheists who they seem to simply regard with scorn and pity.

It's important to note that almost all atheists were once theists and the reverse is almost never seen and this tells us something. The humanist is FREE, in that he has unshackled himself from the chains of received wisdom and sought his spiritual fulfillment across the vast spectrum of human knowledge, rather than within a single narrow interpretation of it. There are lots of theists in this forum, which I find odd in a forum purporting to encourage philosophy and the advance of critical thinking. Theism is non-critical by definition, an opinion I could also extend to physics ( just to pretend I'm still on-topic). The analogy is valid, although both the theists and the physicists will furiously deny it, because criticism within both theism and physics is constrained within a specific paradigm which is placed beyond the reach of criticism. They both proceed from a foundational assumption which must first be accepted as canon law. The theists foundational assumption is immune to criticism because it is untestable by definition. We either accept it or we don't and its parameters are inaccessible to the tools of logic and reason which have informed the advance of human knowledge. Thus the humanist is affronted when these tools are misused to attempt this impossible feat. The physicist is granted the full use of these tools, which means his crime lies in leaving them in his toolbox, but I'll leave the details of that digression for another time.

I wish to speak on a personal note, although a similar world-view is shared by most scientists. I'm being besieged on all fronts by theists in other threads. I stand accused of regarding our universe as a mechanistic toy when in fact it is the opposite because it is an evolving complex entity. The way I see it is that a created universe is nothing more than a plaything of its purported creator which defines me as the slave of another, an existential position untenable for an examined and free mind. What then is our universe to me?

The universe is itself becoming and this offers humanity a far deeper meaning to its own existence than theism can offer because it defines us as simultaneously all of it and part of it. We are both observers and players in this evolutionary process because sentient beings are future-makers who determine the future of the universe. This is literally and physically true and this grants humanity both a purpose and a destiny, something which a received system of belief is unable to offer. Theism can offer this to an individual but humanism can offer this to life itself. So I have my own personal god all right, which I can define as my intimate physical relationship with everything that exists. I refuse to acknowledge the existence of the unknowable for exactly this reason because the universe that is itself becoming is the universe that evolves to know itself, in the truest Spinozan sense, and stripped of all mysticism and the supernatural. There is no "super" to nature, which means that no knowledge exists which is inaccessible to the human quest for it.

This is the way I see the world as a scientist which means the physicists have betrayed me. I can forgive the theists, for they know not what they do, but I will never forgive my own brethren for as long as they continue to insist that truths exist beyond the reach of the tools of logic and reason which we have evolved. My sense of awe and wonder at the complexity of our universe is amplified a hundredfold when I know that in essence it is an entity of exquisite simplicity which has evolved this complexity for itself. It is amplified a thousandfold when I know that our human destiny is to unravel this complexity and that we have the capacity to do it. Spoken in the name of science and humanism, which rarely pokes its head above the parapet to defend itself.

Regards Leo
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Newme
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Newme »

Leo,

It seems you have misunderstood my points. Try reading through them again, for more understanding, and that will likely correct your premature conclusions.
Newme wrote:So... That's the kind of "hymns" you're chanting or meditating on. ;) The kind that put others down for believing in different subjective beliefs than the song writer's. Dogma is not limited to Theists.

Has anybody defined God yet, or is just the most dysfunctional definition of God being exclusively focused on with blinders to the countless others? If "god is love" then there's no debate. If god is one's "ultimate concern," then again all knowingly or unknowingly believe in and prioritize their own god (which most worship subconsciously). If God is objective truth, we are all clueless fools in any attempts to pin point exact principles and realities of God. IMO, God is a way of referring to love, ultimate concerns ("the kingdom of God is within you"), objective truth and much more, like other dimensions, that may be part of objective truth, but beyond imagination.

Maybe dark energy is the cosmic web that connects all energy... God..."e pluribus unum" (out of one many) and greater than the sum of its apparent parts, known not by direct observation but by evidence of influence.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
Obvious Leo
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Newme. I was expressing a frustration that once again a thread on a specifically scientific question has once again been hijacked by those who simply use the opportunity to expound a particular theistic ideology. I regard this as ill-mannered and obfuscatory, if not downright malicious, and it happens all the time. Science and theology operate in different magisteria and I have nothing whatsoever to say about god because I've never met the bloke. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
Newme wrote:Maybe dark energy is the cosmic web that connects all energy... God..."e pluribus unum" (out of one many) and greater than the sum of its apparent parts, known not by direct observation but by evidence of influence.
The currently accepted position in most of the physics community is that dark energy is probably a mis-reading of the data which results from a fundamental paradigm flaw. It's an example of the "physics of the gaps". The unscientific media can make a mystery out of anything and all too often our physicists are willing to go along with it for inscrutable reasons of their own. There is no mystery here, merely the unknown, the daily bread of all science. That the "expansion" of the universe is "apparently" accelerating is but one of a vast suite of data mis-representations which has placed physics beyond the reach of human reason and confined it to an obscure branch of mathematics. However to call on the invisible hand of supernatural forces to explain a physical phenomenon is anathema to a man of science.

Regards Leo
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Uriahharris
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Uriahharris »

Obvious Leo wrote:Newme. I was expressing a frustration that once again a thread on a specifically scientific question has once again been hijacked by those who simply use the opportunity to expound a particular theistic ideology. I regard this as ill-mannered and obfuscatory, if not downright malicious, and it happens all the time. Science and theology operate in different magisteria and I have nothing whatsoever to say about god because I've never met the bloke. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
Newme wrote:Maybe dark energy is the cosmic web that connects all energy... God..."e pluribus unum" (out of one many) and greater than the sum of its apparent parts, known not by direct observation but by evidence of influence.
The currently accepted position in most of the physics community is that dark energy is probably a mis-reading of the data which results from a fundamental paradigm flaw. It's an example of the "physics of the gaps". The unscientific media can make a mystery out of anything and all too often our physicists are willing to go along with it for inscrutable reasons of their own. There is no mystery here, merely the unknown, the daily bread of all science. That the "expansion" of the universe is "apparently" accelerating is but one of a vast suite of data mis-representations which has placed physics beyond the reach of human reason and confined it to an obscure branch of mathematics. However to call on the invisible hand of supernatural forces to explain a physical phenomenon is anathema to a man of science.

Regards Leo
While I agree, Leo, as it is futile to argue the something of nothing, The last sentence worries me. "However to call on the invisible hand of supernatural forces to explain a physical phenomenon is anathema to a man of science". In which you call yourself a man of science, in which you would have to be a man of both theology and philosophy, both of which argue against this sentence. I would urge you to define "man of science", in which you must specialize your scope to fit your argument.
-UriahHarris
Obvious Leo
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Uriahharris wrote: I would urge you to define "man of science", in which you must specialize your scope to fit your argument.
I am a natural philosopher, an old-fashioned term in the modern world of specialisation. I seek to achieve a synergy between science and philosophy, two disciplines which are nowadays regarded as separate but which until the 20th century were clearly regarded as two sides of the same coin. I'm like the Blues Brothers trying to get the band back together. The moment I specialise my scope I am neither scientist nor philosopher but this doesn't mean I can't or won't answer your question. I just needed to make this important qualification before saying that my metaphysic derives mainly from a biological perspective. This unshackles me from the reductionist paradigms of the Newtonian world and allows me to take a more holistic view. We don't live in a reductionist world which makes the tools of the biologist more useful for a philosopher than the tools of the physicist. The physicist can tell us how the universe works but he can't tell us what it is, is basically what I'm getting at, but the more important point is this. Since Einstein, physics is no longer a science but a branch of mathematics which makes predictions about the behaviour of matter and energy. This is a finely nuanced distinction which Einstein was fully aware but it doesn't seem to have got through to his acolytes, most of whom wouldn't recognise a metaphysical proposition if it kicked them in the stones.

Regards Leo

-- Updated July 28th, 2014, 10:50 am to add the following --

Uriah. I have to ask this question bluntly because to get anywhere I need to know who I'm speaking to.

Do you believe that there are agencies external to the physical universe which operate within it to effect change in physical phenomena?

Regards Leo
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Uriahharris
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Uriahharris »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Uriahharris wrote: I would urge you to define "man of science", in which you must specialize your scope to fit your argument.
I am a natural philosopher, an old-fashioned term in the modern world of specialisation. I seek to achieve a synergy between science and philosophy, two disciplines which are nowadays regarded as separate but which until the 20th century were clearly regarded as two sides of the same coin. I'm like the Blues Brothers trying to get the band back together. The moment I specialise my scope I am neither scientist nor philosopher but this doesn't mean I can't or won't answer your question. I just needed to make this important qualification before saying that my metaphysic derives mainly from a biological perspective. This unshackles me from the reductionist paradigms of the Newtonian world and allows me to take a more holistic view. We don't live in a reductionist world which makes the tools of the biologist more useful for a philosopher than the tools of the physicist. The physicist can tell us how the universe works but he can't tell us what it is, is basically what I'm getting at, but the more important point is this. Since Einstein, physics is no longer a science but a branch of mathematics which makes predictions about the behaviour of matter and energy. This is a finely nuanced distinction which Einstein was fully aware but it doesn't seem to have got through to his acolytes, most of whom wouldn't recognise a metaphysical proposition if it kicked them in the stones.

Regards Leo

-- Updated July 28th, 2014, 10:50 am to add the following --

Uriah. I have to ask this question bluntly because to get anywhere I need to know who I'm speaking to.

Do you believe that there are agencies external to the physical universe which operate within it to effect change in physical phenomena?

Regards Leo
I see, and I regards to your question I can not rightfully answer for two reasons. The first being my limited understanding of the universe, and anything beyond the said universe (being only capable of perceiving from my own eyes and nothing else). The second being this statement contradicts itself, where an external agency can operate inside would make it an internal agency. However, I can understand partially what you were trying to ask.
-UriahHarris
Obvious Leo
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Uriahharris wrote: The second being this statement contradicts itself, where an external agency can operate inside would make it an internal agency
Quite so, my friend. The statement contradicts itself. That's why I asked it. Sitting on the fence is a perfectly honourable position for a thinker to take and I have no intention of pressing you on the matter.

Regards Leo
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Atreyu
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Atreyu »

If the Universe itself is a conscious entity then one can begin with conscious intent without violating the definition of the Universe, i.e. appealing for some kind of outside agency.

The Universe is 'All', so there can be no outside agencies. But this 'All' could be conscious, and taking it as such can give one an infinitely simpler and more coherent model of the Universe.
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Uriahharris »

Are humans then seperate from a conscious universe? For human beings argue singular consciousness, making the statement questionable. If the universe as we know it is conscious, then does this make us a part of the universal consciousness?
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

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Atreyu wrote:If the Universe itself is a conscious entity then one can begin with conscious intent without violating the definition of the Universe, i.e. appealing for some kind of outside agency.

The Universe is 'All', so there can be no outside agencies. But this 'All' could be conscious, and taking it as such can give one an infinitely simpler and more coherent model of the Universe.
Unlikely as it may seem, we could find some common ground here. It would require a significantly more sophisticated understanding of consciousness than we currently ascribe to it and it would be ridiculous to attempt a definition but I say a very similar thing in my philosophy. The biological approach to metaphysics allows us to say that the universe is evolving towards consciousness and that human consciousness is a subset of this process. This then accounts for life and mind. However this denies the possibility of teleology because it means the universe is not "designed" but rather it is self-organising, just as everything in biology is self-organising. The design principle is redundant.

Regards Leo
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Atreyu
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

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Uriahharris wrote:Are humans then seperate from a conscious universe? For human beings argue singular consciousness, making the statement questionable. If the universe as we know it is conscious, then does this make us a part of the universal consciousness?
Obviously we are part of the Universe, conscious or not.
Obvious Leo wrote:Unlikely as it may seem, we could find some common ground here. It would require a significantly more sophisticated understanding of consciousness than we currently ascribe to it and it would be ridiculous to attempt a definition but I say a very similar thing in my philosophy. The biological approach to metaphysics allows us to say that the universe is evolving towards consciousness and that human consciousness is a subset of this process. This then accounts for life and mind. However this denies the possibility of teleology because it means the universe is not "designed" but rather it is self-organising, just as everything in biology is self-organising. The design principle is redundant.
Obviously this Consciousness would be infinitely greater and more encompassing than our own, but the 'basic parameters' would be the same, generally speaking. Like any conscious entity It could choose, make decisions, and interact with its environment intelligently (which in this case would be Itself, since it is All). As far as teleology is concerned, I certainly don't subscribe to any idea that this gigantic Conscious entity directly affects life on Earth in any way. It only designed the 'General Plan' of the Universe, got the 'ball rolling' so to speak. After that, mechanical forces came into play so that while the 'General Plan' remains intact, incidental phenomenon can occur outside of that Plan.

I like to use the analogy of a man rolling a boulder down the side of a mountain with the aim of it landing within a certain area. He has done his calculations and is fairly certain that it will land in the area desired. But he cannot know its exact path, nor all the objects it could hit on its way down. So, he pushes it off. This was a conscious act. Now, however, the boulder is rolling down the hill. It just happens to hit certain trees and not others, and it also just happens to kill certain people, destroy certain cars, and even saves one person's life by killing a man who was trying to murder him while chasing after him with a knife. By 'just happens' I'm implying that it was mechanical, and was not part of the conscious intent of the man who rolled the boulder down the mountain. The man may not have even known the people, cars, and homes involved were there. Note that it would be very easy for the participants involved, who knew nothing of the man above, to assume that the entire event was completely mechanical. Not seeing nor even imagining the man at the top of the mountain, but only seeing a boulder apparently coming down towards them due to accident, they might easily just assume that the boulder 'just happened' to break loose due to erosion and wind, and that that is a sufficient explanation for what happened.

The same is true of the Universe. It has a General Plan, but only a General Plan. Within this General Plan many accidental, random, and mechanical phenomenon also occur which have nothing whatsoever to do with this General Plan, just as the house that got smashed had nothing whatsoever to do with the plan of the man who was merely trying to move a boulder to a certain area.
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Felix
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Felix »

That's not a plan you described in your analogy, Atreyu, it's simply a thoughtless act. A plan would be to build a track that the rock will follow to reach the destination, have the rock lifted and carried there, etc. You don't need a God to explain a mechanical action.

"just as the house that got smashed had nothing whatsoever to do with the plan of the man who was merely trying to move a boulder to a certain area."

You wouldn't get too far with that argument in a court of law - ignorance of the potential consequences of one's actions is not a credible defense.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Logicus
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Logicus »

Let's go back to the OP. What the OP meant to say is "Why is dark matter so hard to FIND (not locate), if it supposed to be most of what is contained in the universe"? We should be wading in the stuff, so to speak.

It is a valid question. The Large Hadron Collider will be investigating this, I believe, but we have to go back to the beginning: dark matter may not exist.

Dark Matter was originally proposed to account for (in Newton/Einstein terms) the motions of galaxies in distant clusters. In other words, dark matter is a fudge factor to account for the observations in terms explainable by general relativity. This assumes two things: That all the universe behaves exactly as things behave locally, and General Relativity is perfect and unassailable. Neither may be true.

Is there any reason to believe that just as Einstein improved upon Newton, that someone may not improve upon Einstein? Maybe the problem is in the mindset of less original thinkers who would rather defend the status quo than develop a new theory. To support the familiar they will go to any length - including changing the entire makeup of the universe to make IT conform to relativity.

Dark Matter is their invention for the sake of relativity. But what if gravity is different "out there"? Then dark matter is unnecessary. Relativity will still apply to observations. Suddenly, all the grand structure of the dark matter universe is superfluous. In other words, it may be gravity we don't understand, not dark matter.

Years ago, the perturbations in Mercury's perihelion were thought to have been caused by another small planet which was named Vulcan. It was believed to exist, its orbit and mass calculated, and was even observed by reputable astronomers. Yet, it did not exist. When Einstein explained the perturbations using General Relativity, Vulcan was promptly forgotten. Is Dark Matter the new Vulcan?
Obvious Leo
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Dark matter is a myth. It was invented to account for a false assumption, namely that the galaxies are gravitationally bound. Whilst it's fair to say that the galaxies are more gravitationally bound than the spaces between them it simply makes no sense to assume that they are absolutely bound by gravity. If this were the case it means they must always have been the same size, a proposition which beggars explanation in an expanding universe. The moon is moving away from the earth, the planets are moving away from the sun and also away from each other. These facts are easily explained by gravity because of its inversely logarithmic relationship with time and this fundamental relationship also means that the entire galaxy is expanding, albeit more slowly than the cosmos as a whole. What would a galaxy look like if it were flying apart? The question is a rhetorical one because the answer is blindingly obvious. It would look like ours, a spiral galaxy. Only the most massive galaxies are elliptical which simply means they haven't started to observably fly apart yet. When the Milky Way merges with Andromeda in a couple of billion years time the combined masses of the two galaxies will form a super-galaxy which will adopt an elliptical shape. For a while. Eventually it too will become a spiral as it expands and flies apart. No doubt it will eventually find another super-galaxy to merge with and restore the cosmic order. Gravity is a subtle phenomenon. It both tears the universe apart and puts it back together again.

Regards Leo

P.S. Dark energy is a myth also and this is now widely acknowledged in the physics community. It is presumed to simply be a confirmation bias based on the entirely illusory cosmological constant, a mathematical sleight-of-hand which nowadays few regard as physical.
Mechsmith
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Re: Will we ever find dark matter and dark energy?

Post by Mechsmith »

Hi Leo,

I had once thought that chicanery was a bit too strong a term but I am beginning to think that the term that Darwin X likes too much may be more appropriate.

It has been reported that even Mr. Hubble preferred to call the red shift and the resulting constant "apparent" but by simply calling it actual then a whole swarm of theorists were able to make a living from it.

Looking for something that there is no evidence of existing has been a profitable occupation for several different classes of people. Personally I am going to spend my time looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's a little more honest and perhaps I can get the good people here to crowd-fund my search for a share. Happy thoughts, M.
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