Can nothing exist alongside something?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Whitedragon »

Can nothingness be reached? If I encounter nothingness in space, would it not be space that tells me where it is? Nothingness will always have a location if present in space. Where is there no space? It seems only NOTHINGNESS could “exist” for it to be truly nothing for these reasons. Nothingness appears to become a substance as soon as “something” exists, because something may force it into a location; and because nothingness would have to exert an infinite force to prevent itself from absorbing normal time and space; the force would give it substance, and in turn it would become something. It would also produce residual after effects, like massive gravimetric forces, that could even off set the expansion of space itself. Space is based on a vacuum concept, thus nothing will be a greater vacuum, making space more solid than itself. This could cause nothing to move away at trans warp speeds to escape normal space, until it ends up in an environment that is free of ALL itself. Thus nothing cannot exist in the same universe/dimension than us; if it does, it becomes something, and it may attempt to escape the universe if it’s an absolute state; or, if it’s not an absolute state, the force which holds it together may collapse, much like a deep sea creature being brought up from the depths. Depending on what kind of power was required to keep it in a state of nothingness, it could be cataclysmic when its fails to maintain its state.

A question, if “nothingness” attempts to escape the universe when exposed to normal space, can it be used under controlled conditions to create faster than light speed propulsion?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Mechsmith
Posts: 210
Joined: October 27th, 2013, 5:09 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Mechsmith »

I think that state of nothingness is employed by the proponents of the "Big Bang-Expanding Universe Theories. The Abrahamic religions called it the void. The void is noted by its lack of fields, forces and energies. Since gravity controls the speed of time this allows the Universe to expand faster than the speed of light for the first few millionths of a second. According to this view the leading parts of the "Expansion" are still traveling faster than "c" as there is no way that gravity, restricted to "c", can ever catch up.

Since nothing within the Universe can travel faster than "c" any parts of the Expansion that are farther from the "epicenter or singularity" than "c" makes possible whatever is outside the Universe to expand forever. Apparently it's expanding into the "Void".

In this case the Universe is defined by its fields, densities, energies, and time. So the origional note asked if nothingness can be reached. Yes, if you can get outside the Universe then there would be no time so you could go as fast as you liked. You may also use a black hole to travel faster than light a phenomonen which is loved by science fiction writers almost as much as they like "Wormholes".

This is only one view of the Universe. There are several more. (Understatement) :wink:
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Whitedragon »

Mechsmith wrote:I think that state of nothingness is employed by the proponents of the "Big Bang-Expanding Universe Theories. The Abrahamic religions called it the void. The void is noted by its lack of fields, forces and energies. Since gravity controls the speed of time this allows the Universe to expand faster than the speed of light for the first few millionths of a second. According to this view the leading parts of the "Expansion" are still traveling faster than "c" as there is no way that gravity, restricted to "c", can ever catch up.

Since nothing within the Universe can travel faster than "c" any parts of the Expansion that are farther from the "epicenter or singularity" than "c" makes possible whatever is outside the Universe to expand forever. Apparently it's expanding into the "Void".

In this case the Universe is defined by its fields, densities, energies, and time. So the origional note asked if nothingness can be reached. Yes, if you can get outside the Universe then there would be no time so you could go as fast as you liked. You may also use a black hole to travel faster than light a phenomonen which is loved by science fiction writers almost as much as they like "Wormholes".



This is only one view of the Universe. There are several more. (Understatement) :wink:
Did I not also say it would have to be outside the universe?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Mechsmith
Posts: 210
Joined: October 27th, 2013, 5:09 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Mechsmith »

Outside the Universe may not exist. There may also be "no nothing". I have been trying to build an antigravity machine which I think would be necessary to get outside but I haven't had any luck with it. With a black hole one may be able to do it but I don't think we would survive the foray into QM intact. If I can't remember the trip I don't want to go :(
Platos stepchild
Posts: 545
Joined: July 19th, 2014, 9:58 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Platos stepchild »

In my opinion, the riddle of "nothingness" is resolved by considering how certain statements, although themselves logical, might nevertheless be found nonsensical. For example: even though we can ask the question "What is nothingness" (scorning the enigmatic gesture of "quoting"), that doesn't make it intelligible. The most obvious refutation of "nothingness" is the need for some sort of "mind/archive" to systematically delete everything, from existence, until finally recognizing when a state-of-nothingness has been achieved. The catch, of course is the necessary existence of a "mind/archive" (I'm tacitly assuming that no "mind/archive" can ever be infinitely deconstructed). It must, therefore eventually reach a state of "maximum deconstruction" (while yet remaining a "mind/archive"). Such a mind's (or, archive's) final "deletion", from existence is, of course itself. But, that's impossible. So, here's the thing: in order for "nothingness" to exist, the fact of that existence has to be remembered/archived, somewhere..., anywhere. What happens, though when there's nothing..., anywhere? "Nothingness" is self refuting. It simultaneously affirms, and denies that which it most needs, in order to exist.

Interestingly, the brain often embraces that which the gut rejects. In this case, the "gut" is enthralled with, and fearful of "nothingness"; whereas, the "brain" sees it as a logical dead-end. Somewhere, though must lie a center-of-gravity, a "Lagrangian point", cancelling out both "head, and heart. I, personally don't know, about that; although, I have long sought that elusive fulcrum. My gut's-eye-view, and my mind's-eye-view just won't jive. But, maybe they weren't meant to. I used to believe that "nothingness" was radical self-negation. It's really not, though. Instead, it provokes the brutal acknowledgement of our own "true minds" (That's what being "maximally deconstructed" means). Perhaps that's the allure of "nothingness". Although impossible to attain, the effort, nevertheless forces us to acknowledge the "seminal nature" of our minds, a brooding, infantile darkness. And that, is a dreadful, albeit compelling thing. Mirrors are seldom kind. The rhizome-of-nothingness is even less so. It reveals that which we spend whole lifetimes concealing: our inherent weaknesses, and shames. The titular question is "Can nothing exist alongside something?". Regardless of whether we're considering a mere "nothing", or abject "nothingness", the mirror's still there, a relentless truth, and dreadful tease. Maybe "nothingness" can actually exist alongside something real. It certainly seems to be the counterpoint my own lust, and regret, which are real, enough.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Whitedragon »

There are certain states of extremes, which may never be attained, like absolute zero, but that doesn’t mean near states can’t be achieved, ex. relativistic speeds. What do you say of “nothingness,” or relativistic nothingness being used for propulsion as described in the OP question? Also what do you think of the notion that true nothingness CAN exist in parts of the universe that exhibit or allow the same states? As for can nothing exist alongside something, I think the answer is no, just like a hole in a coat is surrounded by material and air, it cannot completely be nothing without all air and material disappearing from the universe. For as long as there is something, nothing cannot exist completely.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
Theophane
Posts: 2349
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Theophane »

What kind of barrier would keep Nothing separate from Something? And would the Something cease to exist if it crossed the event horizon of ... The Nothing? 8) Seriously, can Something become Nothing, or is Something always Something?
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Whitedragon »

Theophane wrote:What kind of barrier would keep Nothing separate from Something? And would the Something cease to exist if it crossed the event horizon of ... The Nothing? 8) Seriously, can Something become Nothing, or is Something always Something?
Black next to white makes either one stand out, but in a universe where there is only one of the two… Something makes nothing something, especially if they are in relation to one another, but in a place where there is only nothing, nothing becomes complete. When you mix some oily substance into a water bowl, soap, (when touching it in the middle), pushes the oil to the sides. So one can assume that if this has already happen all the oil is on the rim, so by creating some oil in a soapy area, utilizing it for propulsion, guided carefully enough, would work to this effect. With the oil being “nothing” and the soap being something.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Platos stepchild
Posts: 545
Joined: July 19th, 2014, 9:58 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Platos stepchild »

......
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Whitedragon »

Platos stepchild wrote:......
Forgive me. I’m speaking in metaphors, so this might not sound too much like science, but many great scientific breakthroughs came through analogies like these. I’m just making casual conversation here, and far from trying to make any breakthroughs, please just try and bear with me. I mean, my intent was to simplify. If scientists can manage to create a substance that is foreign to our space-time dimensions; isn’t it likely that, that substance will be expelled from our space-time? The reason why I use “nothing” is that whatever nothing may be it clearly isn’t manifesting entirely in our space-time, and might be in a different dimension, or region of the universe. The soap and oil analogy is just an illustration. Nothing may be everywhere and something may be everywhere, but in different space-times and or dimensions. If something and nothing is separated by dimension, and if it is everywhere, that means this kind of travel is not mono-directional and can be created anywhere in space. Furthermore this state can also be used to make normal matter capable of faster than light speeds.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Felix »

Mechsmith said: If I can't remember the trip I don't want to go.
Well, we're not letting you board the magic bus then... to paraphrase Jerry Garcia, "If you can remember the 60's trip, you weren't there."

I don't understand the title of this thread though: "Can nothing exist alongside something?" Why, have they been known to feud?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
Misty
Premium Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Misty »

Nothing always exists alongside of something, just in case something disappears.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Whitedragon »

Hi Felix,

They do not feud, but “something” does have the ability to make “nothing” less so. Nothing is supposedly void of everything, but as soon as there exists something in the same dimension or space-time, nothing can be plotted. Assuming that dimension or place separates the two, nothing may exist while something exists, but they are not in the same space-time / dimension. Maybe nothing is a force like strong and weak nuclear forces or rather a cause of such a phenomenon. Maybe the answer at finding “nothing” is in quantum physics. Forces, energy, and particles change as they extend into other dimensions; hence, (for example) dark matter doesn’t exist somewhere far away, but has been theorized to be the same materials, but only in higher dimensions; the same might be true for nothingness, and as soon as that comes into contact with something our space-time might attempt to expel it back. Wherever the distortion is created, (seeing it is everywhere), it could be utilized as population. Questions arise as to whether a lot of force is exerted to keep nothingness in this state, or whether being in this dimension demands no force at all; this will be the determining factor of whether it is truly nothing, because if it has to exert force, it is already interacting with something. Either way, I don’t think it is unfair to hypothesize that it may release huge amounts of energy when phased into our space-time, which could be harnessed.

So, Misty, if it does not exert force to maintain its state, and does not interact with something in anyway, then something doesn’t exist to nothing, unless it is “pulled” from that dimension; it could even be a result of two “something’s” interacting in a certain way, ex. nuclear fission or fusion. Either way, something like dark matter is invisible and undetectable to us, yet it makes up huge parts of us and accounts for most of the mass and energy. Nothing may have similar difficulties of being detected, but may hold perpetual energy.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
User avatar
Q7382
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: December 20th, 2014, 5:29 am

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by Q7382 »

The answer requires the terminology to be more carefully specified. In particular, how is nothing different from space?

To paraphrase David Harriman: moving into a new house, you might ask your family, "What are we going to do with all this space?" What you wouldn't say is, "Let's move this space into the backyard so that we can make room for some furniture." :)

In other words, space is just the term we use to denote the separation between objects. It's a semantic placeholder, indicating merely that there isn't anything there. Without a more abstruse definition, it seems natural in a physical context to interpret space as simply a synonym for nothing.

I'm aware that General Relativity speaks of space being curved, which under this interpretation would be incoherent because "curved nothingness" is nonsense. Perhaps in General Relativity there is an actual definition of the term space that makes "curved space" mean something in terms of physical architecture, though I have not seen such a definition.

In short, I am wondering if this possible abuse of language in physics is what led you (OP) to the idea that nothing or space actually refer to something physical (something that can exist; that is, manifest as a physical object). If so, I suggest it might constitute an misinterpretation of General Relativity, or else GR is partly incoherent.
User avatar
HZY
Posts: 261
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Can nothing exist alongside something?

Post by HZY »

Actually, everything is in nothing. So nothingness is inclusive of something, not the other way around.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021