Curious results from interferometer experiments

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Steve3007
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Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Steve3007 »

I will say in advance: This is way too long as an OP in the philosophy forum and way too short as a proper description of this experiment and its results. So, as with most things in life, it is a compromise. For those of you who complain that Nature is inherently simple and should therefore be explainable in a short, simple form, I ask: how short? One word? One sentence? This is about a couple of pages in an average sized book. I'd say that's short. It uses no mathematics or particularly exotic terminology (apart from the name of the apparatus) and the sentences are, as far as I can tell, grammatically correct. I'd say that's simple.

---

A thing called a "Mach-Zehnder Interferometer" takes a beam of light from a source, like a laser, and uses a half-silvered mirror to split it into two beams that travel at right-angles to each other. These two beams then reflect off two further mirrors that bring them back together again. They then hit another half-silvered mirror, as shown here.
The Interferometer setup
The Interferometer setup
Picture1.png (14.65 KiB) Viewed 7520 times
If we turn on our light source and place light detectors (eyes, or something more sensitive) at A and B, what we find is that the intensity of light detected at each of these two points depends critically on the length of the two paths. For some lengths, we get all the light hitting A and complete darkness at B. For some lengths, we get the reverse. For other lengths we get something in between.

(I'm only allowed to attach 3 illustrations! So imagine the picture above but with detector B in the dark.)
---

How does physics attempt to describe this observed behaviour?

Well, the idea that light might be a wave seems to work quite well. We know from examining various types of waves, like those that we see on the surface of water or those that travel through air as sound, that when two waves cross paths with each other they "interfere". If a peak of the first wave coincides with a peak of the second, we get one big peak. The peaks add up. If a peak of the first wave coincides with a trough of the second, we get nothing. They cancel each other out.

Image

If we carry this experience of waves with peaks and troughs either doubling or cancelling over to the behaviour of light, it seems to work quite well. If we think of that beam of light in the interferometer as a little line of peaks and troughs then we could imagine it splitting into two little lines of peaks and troughs and then recombining. We can then see how changing the length of one of those paths relative to the other would affect what happens when they meet again. If, when they meet, a peak is aligned with a trough we'll get no light. If it's peak-with-peak and trough-with-trough, adding to each other, we'll get all the light.
Light travelling down both paths as waves
Light travelling down both paths as waves
Picture4.png (26.58 KiB) Viewed 7520 times
Of course, we've had to use our imagination when thinking about those little peaks and troughs. We don't measure anything along those lines; we don't see these supposed peaks and troughs. We just measure what, if anything, comes out the other end of the apparatus. But if those little imaginary waves mean that we've successfully described what we do see coming out the other end, then maybe those waves aren't imaginary after all? Maybe that is what light "really" is? Maybe.

OK, well before deciding for sure, let's test our theory with some different light levels. Suppose we dim the light a bit. When we do that, we find that whatever's coming out the other end gets dimmed by the same amount. So far so good. Perhaps our little waves just got a bit smaller.

But if we keep dimming the light some more we find that something different gradually starts to happen. The detectors start to see the light in uneven flashes, rather than as a smooth continuous stream. We still get the phenomenon whereby changing those path lengths changes which detector receives the most flashes. But flashes they are, nevertheless. This new behaviour is modeled by thinking of the light not as a continuous stream of waves but as little packets called photons. Again, as with the wave idea, we can't actually see these little photon things. All we see, using our detectors, is the flashes. But the idea of light travelling along these paths as little discrete packets would seem, on the face of it, to explain what we're seeing.

Think of the illustration at the top but with little dots along the path representing our idea of what photons "look like"
---

But how can we use this new idea of little packets of light to continue to correctly describe the interference effects; the thing that we managed before so successfully to describe using the wave idea? Well, perhaps we could say that these little photons are like little packets of waves and that when two photons hit that last mirror together they interfere with each other? Sometimes re-enforcing each other; sometimes cancelling each other out.

Think of the illustration with the waves on the path but with little packets of waves
---

We can test this new theory by turning the light down even further. Suppose we turn it down so that only one single flash of light is seen per hour. That way, if these supposed photons really do exist and aren't just a figment of our imaginations, the interference should surely disappear. After all, with only one photon at a time there is nothing for that one photon to interfere with, is there?

If we do that what we find is that the interference remains, just as before. Strange.

OK, perhaps that single photon divides in two when it travels down those separate paths, and those two halves then interfere at the end? Well we can test that by putting detectors not at the end of the apparatus but somewhere along those paths so that we can see this happening.
Observing which path the supposed photon takes
Observing which path the supposed photon takes
Picture7.png (8.73 KiB) Viewed 7520 times
If we do that, with the light turned way down low just like before, we find no such thing. We find that flashes occur on one path or the other but never both at the same time.

One of the strange consequences of this is what happens, with this ultra-low light level, in the situation of "peak-meets-trough" that was mentioned earlier. This is the situation where the lengths of the paths are arranged such that we get absolutely no light detected by one of our two detectors. Our old wave idea tried to model this by imagining the two beams of light waves meeting each other at the end with the peaks of one beam lined up with the troughs of the other.

That worked fine for a continuous stream of light, and it still seems to work with just one little bit of light - one photon - at a time. But what then happens if we block one of the paths is that interference disappears and we now do get light detected where previously there was none. That's ok when we're simply thinking of it as waves. But how can that possibly work with these single photons that we've already observed to be travelling down only one path or the other but not both? How does that one photon find its way to the detector with just one path open but fails to find its way there when both are open? That's the opposite of what common sense would tell us about a single object travelling down one of two possible paths! Restricting the photon's options actually allows it travel. Removing those restrictions stops it from travelling.

Weird.

------

So what is actually happening along those paths?

This is where the philosophy finally comes in. All of the above is simply a description of what has been observed. The question of what is "really" happening is what is debated.

Some people say that it is meaningless to even ask what is happening along those paths when we're not looking at them. All we can meaningfully talk about, they claim, is the world as we observe it, not the world that we assume to exist when we are not looking. Naturally, this has proved philosophically problematic because it implies that there is a sense in which the world is created by the act of observing it. And it invites the question: what do we class as an "act of observation"? Has the detector performed such an act even if we don't look at its output? Does it need to be a conscious observer? Since we've used that word, what exactly do we mean by "conscious"? It's a philosophical can of worms.

Some others go for the so-called "many worlds" solution. This proposes that the photon does actually travel down both paths, but does so in two completely separate universes. We, occupying just one of those universes, only observe one. The interference happens as a result of interference between those two universes, but when we make a measurement we only see one of them. A lot of people would see this as pretty unsatisfactory too!

So, now it's up to you. Can you think of a way of thinking about this which is both philosophically satisfying and crucially which fits all of this observed evidence?
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

I'll bite--- :D

I don't think that photons exist until they are observed. What we see and call photons are single waves. When the wave hits something the wave collapses. Since the wave collapses with no time elapsed we see a flash. Since mechanically speaking a single wave cannot exist any time we single out a wave we see a photon. I note that these waves are not necessarily waves like an ocean wave but are merely peaks and valleys of potential energies but is some cases they act like water waves except that they work in three dimensions of freedom and time does not occur for them since they are moving at "c". I tend to visualize them as little balls of energy potential which is only a wave in three dimensions.

Water waves are two dimensional plus time. This makes them a pretty sloppy analogy but we aren't linguists. Since photons probably don't exist except at the collapse I personally have little trouble dividing a wave in two and sending each portion on a different path or not dividing one and send it down any path my equipment chooses.

If light travels as a wave but is only seen as a photon then it makes some sense to me. I can chase this around further if you like.

There was recently a lecture on You Tube about the interferometer. Interesting but I liked my answer better. Best, M
Steve3007
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Steve3007 »

Mechsmith,

Thanks for your answer. I'm interested in focusing on a couple of things you say. You say this:
I don't think that photons exist until they are observed.
But it looks as though you do think that something exists when it is not being observed - the thing that you think of as a wave. What do you think it means for something to "exist"? The reason I ask is that some interpretations take an entirely observation-centric view and propose that it doesn't even mean anything to talk about what exists when it's not being observed. According to that interpretation, the only purpose of the wave concept is to model what we observe. It is not in any sense a statement about what is "really" happening when we are not observing it, because the concept of what is really happening when we are not observing it is meaningless. How does that sit with you?
Since photons probably don't exist except at the collapse I personally have little trouble dividing a wave in two and sending each portion on a different path or not dividing one and send it down any path my equipment chooses.
The trouble with these two alternative models is this: When we remove that final mirror and independently observe the two paths (with the light turned way down low as before) we find a single flash occurring on one path or the other path, but never both at the same time. So this demonstrates that the idea of the light being split, like a wave, at the first mirror and taking both paths at the same time doesn't fit the observed evidence. When we actually look at the two paths separately in this way we see the light choosing one path or the other (apparently at random), but never both.

It's only when we allow the light to recombine at the other end that we get interference effects. In fact we sometimes get completely destructive interference. So the light pulse (whatever we're calling it) that we just observed going down either one path or the other, but never both, doesn't show up at all on one of the paths coming out the other end. But if we block one of those paths within the apparatus, it does show up. And the way in which it does or doesn't show up exactly fits the model of two waves interfering - peak meeting trough.

So, in the first instance we appear to have demonstrated something (a photon or a packet of waves or whatever) travelling down just one path at a time. But in the second instance we then seem to have observed that same something interfering with another something that has taken the second path, just as a wave would do. It's almost as if the light changes its behaviour at the first mirror based on what we later decide to observe further down the paths.

It gets stranger still when we consider the "delayed choice quantum eraser", but I guess we can come on to that later.
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

Something apparently does exist without being observed. If our light emitter works and sooner or later a flash appears at a detector it isn't too much of an assumption to assume that there is some sort of communication betwixt emitter and detector. There is quite a lot of stuff that goes on without our observing it.

I can't come up with much better an explanation and since quite a few well qualified people haven't either we are in good company.

There are several experiments along the same lines on You Tube. Worth thinking about. M.
Steve3007
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Steve3007 »

If our light emitter works and sooner or later a flash appears at a detector it isn't too much of an assumption to assume that there is some sort of communication betwixt emitter and detector. There is quite a lot of stuff that goes on without our observing it.
Yes, and it's the problem of finding something that is happening between these two points, which is consistent with what is observed at these two points, which is the starting point for considering this kind of experiment. That's what leads people to talk about such things as waves and photons when nobody has ever directly seen either of them.
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

Just a quick thought. If a photon, for lack of a better word, takes all possible paths simultaneously but a detector is at only one path that may mean that the path with the detector is the only possible path. We can't say whats happening on the path without the detector. The mechanism :D that the photon uses to decide which path is impossible is food for thought.

I haven't worked all this out yet. It'll be something to be thinking about for a while yet I suspect. Best M.

UH-OH Scratch first thought. I just found a possible mechanism :idea: Suppose that the photon (previous disclaimer) is a discrete field not a wave. A field is always in all possible places simultaneously. I'm thinking of a field kind of like the air in a balloon. When the balloon is punctured the energy is released (becomes visible). The field is collapsed (punctured) in the detector (eyeball) and seen. We can make the field with nothing more than energy and speed through time or simply contain it in space-time depending on whatever works. We have them both handy.

Anyways I am going to take a field and run it through the interferometer for awhile tonight. You are beginning to make my head hurt. Thank you. M.
Steve3007
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Steve3007 »

I like seeing your thought processes Mech. Keep it coming. (But not if it makes your head hurt. All this philosophy stuff in general makes my head hurt. It also makes me nearly crash my bicycle.)

Incidentally, why do you smile ( :D ) when you mention the word "mechanism"? Is it because it's kind of like your name?

-- Updated Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:13 am to add the following --

Having actually read your post now: Interesting discrete field/balloon idea. It's not a million miles away from the concept of a probability density field - a field which tells you the probability of finding a particle at any given point - except that yours has a sudden discrete cutoff at the surface of the balloon.

But I guess you'd still have to be able to use it to describe how a photon gets detected as if separately, on only one path at a time, with no interference, when we place detectors on the two separate paths within the apparatus but gets detected as if it is "interfering with itself", as if it's taking both paths at the same time, when we place detectors at the outputs of the apparatus.

Note: I use the term "as if" to emphasize that we can't yet commit to anything as ontologically solid as saying "this is what the photon is really doing". All we can say is what models we can create to explain what we actually observe. It's only after we've created a model that works for all the different possible observations that we can stand back and decide whether we're going to say: "this is what really happens when we're not looking". And it's what people see when they stand back which leads some to conclude that the very question of "what really happens when we're not looking" is not a particularly helpful of meaningful one.
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

:?: The name comes from my work and proclivities. I spent a lot of time in my working life reverse engineering things that didn't work. Now my hobby is reverse engineering the universe in order to figure out how it works.

So now I invented a kind of amorphous blob instead of a wave or a photon. We can call it for now the blob hypothesis rather than the alternate universe hypothesis. It's easier to find blobs than universes.

An analogy referring to the question of what light is when we aren't looking. The balloon has been replaced by a soap bubble. A soap bubble is constrained from the atmosphere by the film. All energies are conserved within the bubble until it is either pricked or the film evaporated.

In the case of light which we can't see the energies are contained by motion through space (or anything that doesn't interact with it).

What are the energies. They are a circular magnet. The N and S poles are connected thus leaving the blob non magnetic and conserving the energies. When the blob is destroyed by interaction with something then we see the flash that we currently call a photon. Since relativity teaches that time does not pass (from the blobs point of view) it does not have to last very long.

So if the blob is a field of potential we can't see it as a blob but when we prick the blob by exposing it to a non-transparent bit of matter then we can see it. As a consequence the photon is invisible until it's destroyed.

Since as in the bubble all energies contained within are potential until the bubble is pricked then all energies can take any possible path. It won't matter where you prick the bubble as all possible paths are contained within the bubble.

This pretty well makes the interferometer results a matter of observer bias. I think that this will hold up for a while but there are some things which we can pursue further.

What is light when we are not looking :?: Probably simply a field of potential energy.

What is a photon? A photon does not exist. When we can see light the photon has gone without ever existing. What is the difference between a blob and a photon? The blob is a field not a particle. A field exists in all possible positions, a particle can be in only one place (despite Schrodingers problem with the cat)

What about the Photo electric effect? The directed energies from a blob collapse would interact the same way as the wave collapse.

What about frequencies and colors? A series of pricked blobs would work the same way as collapsed waves. The biggest difference is that the blobs could pursue all possible paths until collapse.

Why can't we see blobs? There are quite a few real thing that we can't see. Live steam is one, gravity is another. Atmospheric air for another. Just because we can't see it is no reason to suppose they don't exist. The effect of a dying blob is light. The effect of a dying wind is a hurricane.

Now we've got to run a few blobs through the apparatus and try to figure out where the observer bias is coming from :!:

This happens when I get up too early :D Best,M.
Steve3007
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Steve3007 »

Strange and interesting thoughts about blobs there Mechsmith. But I don't see how they relate to the specific results of either the interferometer or the photoelectric effect.

Perhaps you could walk me through what this blob is doing in the various different circumstances mentioned for the experiment and say how the observed results are explained.
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

First the photo-electric effect is easy. The blob serves as a conductor or a switch. It is simply an electrically conductive phenomenon. The same as if it were a wave of potential. There is no photon. Once the "photon" flashes it's gone into heat and serves no purpose.

The blob however has a different problem. It must maintain its "charge" or field or field that surrounds the charge until the field is broached. When the field is broached (bubble popped) the release of energy is visible.

Now it gets wild. I am going to visualize the blob as a bubble. There is a limit to its size but I haven't thought that through yet. I also am going to imagine the detectors as points sufficiently arranged to pop any bubble within range.

Now lets bounce the bubble through the 1/2 silvered mirror. I doesn't destroy the bubble but it splits it. Now we bounce them both off the corner mirrors. Both bubbles collapse and a photon is detected at both pins. We are agreed. SO FAR

Now we go slow and remove one detector. One bubble field hits the pin and is seen. One bubble goes off to where all good bubbles go. Again we are agreed :?: Without a detector we don't know whats happening and the detector itself introduces another element. Again kind of a poor analogy :( It might not get much better!

That's as far as I have got so far. The solution of the problem of the interference pattern may be found on a billiards table, but it needs more thinking. Happy thoughts M.
Steve3007
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Steve3007 »

Still not sure how that bubble releases an electron from the surface of the metal in the photoelectric effect.

On the interferometer:
Now lets bounce the bubble through the 1/2 silvered mirror. I doesn't destroy the bubble but it splits it. Now we bounce them both off the corner mirrors. Both bubbles collapse and a photon is detected at both pins. We are agreed. SO FAR
When we have detectors on both paths inside the interferometer only one photon in detected on one path at a time. No splitting bubbles at the first mirror in that case.
Now we go slow and remove one detector. One bubble field hits the pin and is seen. One bubble goes off to where all good bubbles go. Again we are agreed :?: Without a detector we don't know whats happening and the detector itself introduces another element. Again kind of a poor analogy :( It might not get much better!
I don't think there's anything in the experiment about removing one detector. It's the final half-silvered mirror that is removed.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the bubbles.
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

I am preferring blobs for now. Bubbles tend to imply that something else is containing the charge. Bubbles were easier to pop. I see no trouble with using whatever energies are in the blob to either knock off an electron (Photo-electric) or to complete a circuit (semi-conductor).

I am also having a bit of trouble with the 1/2 silvered mirrors with just one blob. OH Well. Best, M.
DarwinX
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by DarwinX »

If you see light as a wave travelling through aether, then all your worries will dissipate. The aether contains balls of alternate positive and negative ethons. [That is, left and right spin ethons]. The wave moves through these ethons spinning them as it goes. The wave or spin energy is dissipated at the point of impact. The photoelectric effect occurs when the energy of the spin is dissipated. This is why you get a shock when you touch an electric wire because the spin of the aether current is stopped which causes a jolt on energy to be released. If you spin a billiard ball and try to stop it with your hand you will get a jolt also. The faster the spin the bigger the jolt.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Beware! The devil wears the mask of a saint.
Mechsmith
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by Mechsmith »

Darwin, Your ethons would have a preferred direction when they lost their energies. I still prefer the field theory as it has the ability to try various paths which is lacking in wave theories.

A billiard table would probably show up a wave like pattern with different sizes of balls but I haven't been able to try that yet.

But I still haven't figured out how the machine works :!:
DarwinX
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Re: Curious results from interferometer experiments

Post by DarwinX »

When aether spins it temporarily becomes matter. See my other post on aether plus spin equals matter. This is why light appears to be both a wave and a particle. I have solved the puzzle already, don't you think?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Beware! The devil wears the mask of a saint.
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