The so-called "passage" of time is considered by many as being an illusion or lying in the realm of psychology but I don't understand your argument that space and time are not part of physics/cosmology. You can't do a whole lot of physics without them.Atreyu wrote:So your question properly lies in the realm of psychology, not physics or cosmology. You are pondering a question about our psychology, about how and why our minds work they way they do (time and space). If you try and consider the question from an "objective" perspective you will only lose your way....
Space the now point in time
- Bohm2
- Posts: 1129
- Joined: February 23rd, 2013, 6:05 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell
- Location: Canada
Re: Space the now point in time
-
- Posts: 101
- Joined: December 9th, 2014, 6:51 am
- Location: UK
- Contact:
Re: Space the now point in time
Atreyu wrote:
Well, the first thing you must understand is that space is a subjective phenomenon, and that it probably does not actually exist in the real world…
So space is the way our minds deal with objects, and time is the way our minds deal with phenomena, and there is little reason to think that either is a real objective property of the world…
This author would argue that our minds are well tuned by evolutionary necessity to live within the confines of the world all must inhabit.
It is true that what we see hear feel touch and smell is interpreted by our mind to just simply enable our existence rather than give a perfect representation to reality, however the evolutionary path of the human species has moved from being one that is simply governed by intelligence inherent in the process of reproductive natural selection, to one that is based on intellect and the ability to piece together evidence via mathematics or philosophical argument based on apparent but perhaps incorrect or imagined facts.
The mechanism of evolution via intellect to arrive at abstract conclusions about the place of life in the universe is probably unique to the human species on this planet at this time.
As a species that is just part of all the life forms that are resident in this world it is perhaps the human one that can best achieve the quest that all life has for its survival on this planet and in what would appear to be a very hostile universe.
Many ideas are the product of minds that have limits on their grasp of reality, and it is the communication between those minds, with perhaps unique perceptions, that, by a process of argument the truth or an approximation to it may be arrived at.
- Atreyu
- Posts: 1737
- Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
- Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
- Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Space the now point in time
Of course space and time are a part of physics and cosmology. What I'm saying is that our experience of space and time lie in the realm of psychology. In physics and cosmology one theorizes about the true (objective) nature of space and time.Bohm2 wrote:The so-called "passage" of time is considered by many as being an illusion or lying in the realm of psychology but I don't understand your argument that space and time are not part of physics/cosmology. You can't do a whole lot of physics without them.Atreyu wrote:So your question properly lies in the realm of psychology, not physics or cosmology. You are pondering a question about our psychology, about how and why our minds work they way they do (time and space). If you try and consider the question from an "objective" perspective you will only lose your way....
Space and time, being the subjective way we perceive the world, probably do not exist at all in the real world. But learning to cognize time as space (the space-time model) explains many things which could not be explained if we took our subjective experience of time at face value, i.e. if we assumed that only the present moment had any real existence....
-
- Posts: 865
- Joined: September 20th, 2012, 10:22 pm
Re: Space the now point in time
Space is what was created when the universe began. Matter was present in some form, but densely packed. When the "big bang" occurred all this matter was pushed apart, and the space between continues to expand to this present moment. The creation of space, it could be argued, is the creation of the universe.
There is no block universe, and it is no longer, in my view, a viable model for conceptualizing the reality around us. The current moment is the only reality. Anything that can be considered real exists in the current moment, and that moment is one out of a continuous stream of moments. Objects are more like processes existing for a time in the stream of moments before fading away. Stars and planets are very long processes, biological entities are very short processes.
Time is real. If time were not real, we would have no basis for forming any ideas about cause and effect. The existence of causal connections demonstrates the reality of time.
All the non biological processes we see would continue to arise, exist, and cease to exist whether we were around to witness them or not. Which is exactly what went on for 10 billion years before we came into being. The way we perceive it is a result of our sensory makeup, but if our senses were different the world we perceive would just appear differently. It still has a reality of its own, and it is indifferent as to how we see it. The universe does not depend on us, we depend on it.
-
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: August 21st, 2012, 7:26 pm
Re: Space the now point in time
- Atreyu
- Posts: 1737
- Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
- Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
- Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Space the now point in time
Space is what was "created" when the Universe became divided and ceased to be a Singularity (as in the Big Bang model). This is a very similar view, but I don't assume Nothing before the Big Bang. Once there became more than just One Thing, space became necessary for any parts of the Universe to perceive anything. A "here and there" began when a part of the Universe had to perceive and conceptualize the rest of it. But when Everything was One, even assuming that One to be conscious, no such conception/perception was necessary. For an entity to perceive/cognize a "here and there", there must be something else besides itself.....
- Misty
- Premium Member
- Posts: 5934
- Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
- Location: United States of America
Re: Space the now point in time
This means a person is pre birth, born, lives, and is dead all at the same time? If this is true then why do we worry about death? It would not really be the end of life.Teralek wrote:Interesting concept that got me thinking... The problem is this idea goes against Einstein relativity...
The past and the future "actually" exist "now". This as actually been proven. Time is relative, there is no such thing as an "exclusive present" to the whole Universe. The "present" of the Universe is "all the time"
There is an arrow of time, but this is an ever flowing one from past to future at every point in time, all the time!
And there is only one and only reason why there is an arrow of time from past to future... it's the second law of thermodynamics...
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
- Spiral Out
- Posts: 5014
- Joined: June 26th, 2012, 10:22 am
Re: Space the now point in time
That appears to be an extremely good argument for my Mutual Means Hypothesis. I might be able to incorporate that into my arguments.Teralek wrote:The past and the future "actually" exist "now". This as actually been proven. Time is relative, there is no such thing as an "exclusive present" to the whole Universe. The "present" of the Universe is "all the time"
If the past, present and future exist now then time is nothing more than a subjective realization and thus everything within the realm of time, i.e. objects, is also nothing more than a subjective realization.
- Lucylu
- Posts: 676
- Joined: October 1st, 2013, 2:32 pm
Re: Space the now point in time
Yes, I agree. I think all time exists at once. The present (certainty) is the particle and the past and future (possibilities) are the wave aspect of time. I think we can 'tap in' to the wave sometimes, without realising, so we have moments of great insight or prescience.Spiral Out wrote:That appears to be an extremely good argument for my Mutual Means Hypothesis. I might be able to incorporate that into my arguments.Teralek wrote:The past and the future "actually" exist "now". This as actually been proven. Time is relative, there is no such thing as an "exclusive present" to the whole Universe. The "present" of the Universe is "all the time"
If the past, present and future exist now then time is nothing more than a subjective realization and thus everything within the realm of time, i.e. objects, is also nothing more than a subjective realization.
- Atreyu
- Posts: 1737
- Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
- Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
- Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Space the now point in time
Yes, to get back to the OP, we could call our three-dimensional space the "now point in time", because our three-dimensional space is but one point of higher dimensional space. And all of the other points of higher space which currently do not intersect our three-dimensional space are cognized/perceived by us as the past or the future, and even of the possible past or future, i.e. Time.....
-
- Posts: 101
- Joined: December 9th, 2014, 6:51 am
- Location: UK
- Contact:
Re: Space the now point in time
Teralek wrote:
The past and the future "actually" exist "now". This as actually been proven. Time is relative, there is no such thing as an "exclusive present" to the whole Universe. The "present" of the Universe is "all the time"
To conclusively prove that the past and future actually exist now would mean proof by visiting them and as far as this author knows this has never really happened except in the realm of human imagination as fiction and perhaps mathematics.
In making the statement "The present of the Universe is all the time" perhaps we should consider that the diameter of the observable universe is 91 billion light years and might be infinite, it is thought to be 13.8 billion years old, there are 100 billion galaxies and apparently there might be more, possibly up to 500 billion, each with billions of suns. The logic encapsulated in the idea that all the past and future exist at once at one time would I think indicate that the path and location of every atomic particle in existence within this vast universe of material could be traced, and in some way visited for any time within the past 13.8 billion years and beyond, and also at least a similar time into the future, this just cannot be correct. Whatever system exists for the existence of everything it has to be simple at least at its most primitive level for everything to work everywhere, and on the scale that it does.
The human species is currently acquiring a vast store of knowledge about the dimensions of space, the existence of the matter and the forces that exist within it, and it is now perhaps time for an evolutionary leap via the intellect of the human species to comprehend the data and understand perhaps the importance of our planet and all the life upon it.
Humans perhaps have a role beyond the intelligence afforded by reproductive natural selection for species modification to achieve survival within changing environmental conditions on earth, towards the survival of all life within the greater environment of the universe that we alone among all current species on this planet can comprehend.
It is perhaps therefore important, to understand how everything works, and has come to exist in the universe, and so understand the limitations of what is possible for the long term preservation of life, of the type we are part of on this beautiful place we call earth, that is a home to all life.
It seems to this author that perhaps, I am alone in the belief that if the only thing that exists, and must always have existed is time, then in someway everything that exists must in someway exist because of it.
It is easy to deduce that there is no past or present that exists for anything only the present. A velocity can be proved to change the speed at which the present moves through time, and cause mass increase, but this only happens up to the point where the present does not pass at all, light speed, and in no way indicates that the past or the present exist as some sort of real parallel existence, comforting and fun though that might be.
The link between time, speed of the present and mass increase of a moving body of material, resulting from its velocity, does in some ways prove a link between time and the existence of matter and I think may partly confirm the concept this topic, was initiated for, to debate.
This authors conclusions wrong and perhaps unacceptable as they may appear to many, that come across them are the only ones that he concludes possible, there certainly appears to be no conventional physics that follows this direction of thought so perhaps, I am alone with this concept.
The ideas arising from Space as the now point in time are summarised here as the following speculative ideas:
Time has probably always existed.
There has probably always been a past and probably always a future, therefore there has probably always have been a present existing between them. The present part of time would have to move between the past, that has gone before and the future that is to come, but as time cannot go around the present it must go through it.
What we describe as space is probably the present time.
As the velocity of a body passing through space increases so does its mass, while for the same body the passage of time decreases and its apparent physical dimensions change in the direction moved. These effects have been proved true and from this it is possible to deduce that time and the physical existence of matter are linked. If we think of space as the now point of time then velocity may be thought of as now points passed per unit of time which indicates that matter and time are linked and may indeed be the same or that in some way matter is the creation of time.
The Universe is made of matter and space existing as the present time this speculative model suggests that space is the present time.
Matter can experience time dilation as the result of velocity but always exists in the same present time, for matter travelling at the speed of light the present would stand still.
Space is a state of time or what may be considered the present or now, either side of space, time extends into the past on one side and into the future on the other, time in this context, as past and present represents time that space is moving through, the past represents points in time that the space has moved through, the future represents the time through which space as the present time has yet to move. Each very small point in space has the future on one side the past on the other, the past and the future around the point are together but one is future time the other past time.
Time cannot pass around space but must pass through it; time therefore must pass through a weakness in space, which manifests itself as a fundamental atomic particle from which all the matter we see in the universe is made. The fundamental particles themselves resolve into the variety atomic particles and collections of particles that we observe and their relationships in terms of the force that dictates how they exist are based on the forces resulting from time passing through them.
Electro magnetic waves pass in space between the past and the future causing space to be slightly moved to the past and back again to the future this causes an atomic particle to move when one of the waves interacts with it by changing the way in which time is absorbed by the particle and by distorting the space within which it resides.
If the universe of space exists in the form of the present time and there and is no way that time can pass through it then a weakness in that universe many times larger than that of a fundamental atomic particle is created through which time passes at speeds exceeding those of light. The weakness created equates to the Big Bang and the rupture of time, between future to past caused our observable universe and its expansion.
The point prior to the time rupture, is achieved when matter in the universe has been converted into electro magnetic wave energy to a degree where time cannot pass through space at a sufficiently high rate through atomic particles.
When the time rupture occurs the weakness created in space is unsustainable and resolves itself into fundamental atomic particles, which are stable with time passing through them at a rate equivalent to the speed of light. The author speculates that the time passing through the hole in the present vortexes, and breaks the original into smaller ones that are projected away from their source that, while still spinning, resolve themselves into the stable galaxies that we now see.
When an object moves though space it has momentum and kinetic energy that it derives from each of its fundamental particles absorbing more time from the direction travelled in than from that which it is travelling from.
When a particle is stationary in space relative to others the perception of the rate at which time passes is determined by the relative equal absorption of time from all directions and is how time is perceived by all particles on earth. If a particle moves relative to other particles then the absorption of time relative to those particles is unequal from all directions and the rate at which time passes changes relative to them.
If an object tries to move faster than the speed of light then the rate at which time passes through the fundamental particles from which it is made exceeds that at which time can pass through a fundamental particle for it to be stable.
Time can vortex when passing through a fundamental particle. The type of vortex is spherical in nature. When in vortex the rate at which time passes through the particle is still the same but the spiral speed can be greater than that of the speed of light and depending on the direction and nature of the vortex, this is what may give it its electro magnetic properties.
Gravity is the result of the effect of time passing through collections of fundamental particles, in space the effect of this can be to deform space and bend the path that electro magnetic waves take in passing a large gravitational force. Electromagnetic waves in this model travel in the present time and therefore are bent as the result of the absorption of time, caused by the existence of matter, in the present time.
Time either side of space can move at a rate greater than that of light.
When a galaxy is formed and stabilises into stable particles the forces acting on them eventually pull many if not all towards the galaxies centre, this results in a massive concentration of matter that has a huge gravitational effect on its surroundings.
At the centre of each concentration of matter at the middle of a galaxy there is potentially a fundamental particle, which is larger than the standard, this super particle is held in place and enabled to exist by the concentration of other surrounding normal but closely packed fundamental particles. Time is able to pass through a super particle at far greater rates than through just a collection of fundamental ones, the effect of the passage of time through a super particle leads to a huge gravitational effect and the distortion of space itself far greater than would be expected from an equivalent body, made from fundamental atomic particles, this potentially leads to the way in which stars orbiting the centre of galaxies do not obey the currently defined laws of physics.
- Present awareness
- Posts: 1389
- Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm
Re: Space the now point in time
Before the Big Bang, it is theorized that there was a single point of energy, surrounded by infinite empty space. This point exploded for some reason and has been moving thru space in all directions for 13.8 billion years. The further the universe expands, the more space we become aware of, even though it wasn't there, to begin with.
- Atreyu
- Posts: 1737
- Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
- Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
- Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Space the now point in time
That's a very fancy and convoluted way of saying that as matter moves and expands any mind perceiving it must expand its "space-sense" along with it, since the perception and cognition of matter and space are inherently intertwined.....Present awareness wrote:In my view, space may not be created or destroyed, simply because it is not there, hence we call it space. It is easy to see the " not-there-ness" of space BEETWEEN two objects, however, it is not so easy to see the not-there-ness of space with only one object and nothing to compare it with.
Before the Big Bang, it is theorized that there was a single point of energy, surrounded by infinite empty space. This point exploded for some reason and has been moving thru space in all directions for 13.8 billion years. The further the universe expands, the more space we become aware of, even though it wasn't there, to begin with.
- Present awareness
- Posts: 1389
- Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm
Re: Space the now point in time
It has been said that the ONE gave rise to the TWO and the TWO gave rise to the 10,000 things, but the 10,000 things still rest in ONE emptiness.
- Atreyu
- Posts: 1737
- Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
- Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
- Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Space the now point in time
I like that....Present awareness wrote: It has been said that the ONE gave rise to the TWO and the TWO gave rise to the 10,000 things, but the 10,000 things still rest in ONE emptiness.
To me, that aphorism seems to be a very useful didactic device to help one see the subjectiveness of our concept of space, the subjectiveness of the very idea of a "here and there"....
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023