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Space the now point in time

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Rr6
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Rr6 » January 18th, 2017, 8:52 am

There are two kinds of Time;

1} temporal as related to brains apprehension abilities,

2} occupied space as energetic frequencies and trajectories \/\/\/\/ ~~~~~ mmmmmmm etc......

Time exists within space.

Occupied Space comes in two primary kinds:

1} positive shaped gravity ( ),

2} negative shaped dark energy )(.

Macro-infinite non-occupied space existence has no variation in types of existence and embraces, but does not restrain, the finite Space( ) - Time ^v - Space )(

The arrow-of-time is due to entropy and entropy is most likely related to the reduction prime number beyond the initial prime set of;

0, 1,

2, 3,

5-7, 11-13, 17-19
,

23.

From here onward we witness a gradual reduction of prime numbers ergo a gradual entropy of our finite, occupied space Universe/Uni-Verse.

It is believed that, ultimatly our finite, occupied space Universe will have cooled off--- heat death of Universe ---enough to become one, very large and very flat-- i.e low amplitude ---lowest frequency photon. Expressed as |

I disagree. I believe that, even tho some aspects of our Universe may become the flat photon |, there will still exist and two integral set of spherical based great tori on each side of the flat photon, and tangent to it, if not overlapping each other with the flat photon embraced by both. Both of these scenarios expressed as follows.

O|O

( ( | ) )


The two differrent colors of great tori sphericals are express two left and right-skew set of 31 great circle/tori associated with left or right-skew icosa{20}hedron.

The icosahedron has the maximum number symmetrical set of right triangles{ 120 } that can be derived from subdivision of a polyhedrons surface.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Atreyu » January 25th, 2017, 6:35 pm

Rainman wrote:When you say time exists in a relative sense as a coordinate of space then you must mean time exists only as a construct of a model. Models of the universe do not exist in and of themselves. So, is it safe to say that a phyisical object that exists in an absolute sense can not even be imagined as "traveling through time"? Nothing that exists in an absolute sense can interact in any manner whatsoever with time. That can only happen in a model...not in the Observable Universe. True this?
True...

Space and time are merely cognitive constructs, or 'models' as you put it --- the means by which we make sense of our world --- and in no way are absolute or 'real' properties of the Universe.

This means that, in reality, Everything is Here, and Everything is happening Now. 'Here and there' and 'before, now, and after' are meaningful phrases only for individual entities existing in the Universe. They have no meaning whatsoever from the POV of the Universe Itself. This means that if the Universe is a conscious entity, It would assert that Everything is Here and Everything is happening Now, and the idea of a 'here and there' or a 'before, now, and after' would be a meaningless abstraction for It, and would not reflect Its reality at all...

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Rr6 » February 15th, 2017, 8:45 am

All mental constructs are based on our experiences of Space ( ) - Time ^v - Space )(

Unicorns that give birth to a toyota prious are concepts based on experience of horns, horses, and toyota priuses.

Space ( ) Time ^v - Space )( eternally exist and eternally exist as complements to each other.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts exist in eternally complement to the above three.

Metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space eternally exists in complement to the above listed four.

Those who believe space does not exist are irrational at best and just looking for attention using irrational perversion{corruption } at worst.

Truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it.

Absolute and relative truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it.

r6
Rr6 wrote:There are two kinds of Time;
1} temporal as related to brains apprehension abilities,
2} occupied space as energetic frequencies and trajectories \/\/\/\/ ~~~~~ mmmmmmm etc......
Time exists within space.
Occupied Space comes in two primary kinds:
1} positive shaped gravity ( ),
2} negative shaped dark energy )(.
Macro-infinite non-occupied space existence has no variation in types of existence and embraces, but does not restrain, the finite Space( ) - Time ^v - Space )(
The arrow-of-time is due to entropy and entropy is most likely related to the reduction prime number beyond the initial prime set of;
0, 1,

2, 3,

5-7, 11-13, 17-19
,
23.
From here onward we witness a gradual reduction of prime numbers ergo a gradual entropy of our finite, occupied space Universe/Uni-Verse.
It is believed that, ultimatly our finite, occupied space Universe will have cooled off--- heat death of Universe ---enough to become one, very large and very flat-- i.e low amplitude ---lowest frequency photon. Expressed as |
I disagree. I believe that, even tho some aspects of our Universe may become the flat photon |, there will still exist and two integral set of spherical based great tori on each side of the flat photon, and tangent to it, if not overlapping each other with the flat photon embraced by both. Both of these scenarios expressed as follows.
O|O
( ( | ) )
The two differrent colors of great tori sphericals are express two left and right-skew set of 31 great circle/tori associated with left or right-skew icosa{20}hedron.
The icosahedron has the maximum number symmetrical set of right triangles{ 120 } that can be derived from subdivision of a polyhedrons surface.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 » September 3rd, 2017, 5:02 am

Rr6 Wrote :
All mental constructs are based on our experiences of Space ( ) - Time ^v - Space )(

Unicorns that give birth to a toyota prious are concepts based on experience of horns, horses, and toyota priuses.

Space ( ) Time ^v - Space )( eternally exist and eternally exist as complements to each other.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts exist in eternally complement to the above three.

Metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space eternally exists in complement to the above listed four.

Those who believe space does not exist are irrational at best and just looking for attention using irrational perversion{corruption } at worst.

Truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it.

Absolute and relative truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it.

r6
Rr6 I always find the replies you make to this topic very interesting although I usually don’t comprehend much of their meaning.
My main suggestion in this topic is simple, and that is that perhaps physics should begin to redefine many of the concepts that it is based on by defining what space is. In defining space I don’t mean a series of dimensions containing nothing, but defining how and why space exists at all.
As all things that exist must exist in the present and never exist in the past or future when we perceive them, then space must exist at and as the now point in time.

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by -1- » September 3rd, 2017, 5:25 am

Gordon975 wrote:
I'm not sure that what this topic is suggesting has been understood.

The suggestion in this topic is not that Space is at the now point in time but is the now point in time.
You are absolutely right in this assessment, Gordon. I don't understand the point you make. Have not even began to successfully conceptualize what you are trying to describe.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 » September 3rd, 2017, 7:33 am

-1- Wrote :
You are absolutely right in this assessment, Gordon. I don't understand the point you make. Have not even began to successfully conceptualize what you are trying to describe.
I agree it does seem hard for others to see what I am what I am trying to explore in this topic and very hard for me to put into words what I need to describe.
Perhaps the important thing is to make others question the perceived wisdom about how every thing we feel, hear, see and touch can really exist.

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Ranvier » September 3rd, 2017, 11:26 am

General

I think it would be pertinent to this topic to define all the "physical" concepts the we take for granted

- Space vs Volume
- Particle vs wave
- mass
- Energy; potential energy vs kinetic energy

I believe that I understand much of what R6 and Atreyu are conveying, although it would be worth while to find a vernacular that could be understood by most people.

I propose:

Time is a measure of space in terms of frequency of kinetic energy (wave) or radiation of Entropy of heat and light
Time is a measure of density in frequency of potential energy (particle)
- particle - is a measure of gravity, in frequency of density described by mass within the "space" of volume that coexists in space as a wave
- mass is a property of particle that is moving in space, increasing gravity and radiation with velocity (particle) and speed (wave)
- gravity is a measure of "anisodensity" or frequency of mass distribution of particle within space (wave) and volume (particle)
- gravity is a (positive) anisodensity towards the negative infinity at the center of "mass" at the speed of light
- dark space (negative) anisodensity in the space towards the positive infinity

Einstein's Spacetme is a description of matter that exists as a mixture of particle-wave distribution within a flat space: R6 describes this as a positive (gravity) and negative (dark space) = flat space (empirically confirmed)

Is this something that makes sense to anyone?

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by -1- » September 3rd, 2017, 12:37 pm

Ranvier wrote:General

Time is a measure of space in terms of frequency of kinetic energy (wave) or radiation of Entropy of heat and light
Time is a measure of density in frequency of potential energy (particle)
- particle - is a measure of gravity, in frequency of density described by mass within the "space" of volume that coexists in space as a wave
- mass is a property of particle that is moving in space, increasing gravity and radiation with velocity (particle) and speed (wave)
- gravity is a measure of "anisodensity" or frequency of mass distribution of particle within space (wave) and volume (particle)
- gravity is a (positive) anisodensity towards the negative infinity at the center of "mass" at the speed of light
- dark space (negative) anisodensity in the space towards the positive infinity

Einstein's Spacetme is a description of matter that exists as a mixture of particle-wave distribution within a flat space: R6 describes this as a positive (gravity) and negative (dark space) = flat space (empirically confirmed)

Is this something that makes sense to anyone?
Boy, physics sure grew up since I attended any physics lectures.

All this is Greek to me, and not only is it brand new stuff, but I don't understand any of it.

Hoo, boy, I gotta get a horseless carriage and a pocket distance-speaking device for meself anon real soon.

One thing is for sure: I really got far behind in my reading.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 » September 6th, 2017, 5:29 pm

Thanks Ranvier and -1- for your arguments and suggestions in this topic R6 and Atreyu both seem to be trying to find their own reasons and method of describing the nature of existence and I respect that although I don’t always understand what they mean.
Ranger you have described the various defining attributes of our physical world in the form of time, mass, gravity and in your own terms but have not in included how space exists.

I may seem like a broken record some times but here I go again.
If the existence of the universe and the natures of its physical description by science were being discussed then the elephant in the corner of the room would have to be how and why space exists, this to my knowledge is either ignored or at best studied and only its physical attributes described perhaps as x, y, and z, I have never encountered anyone giving a reason for its existence or a means by which it might exist, just a blind acceptance of it being there. The big bang theory gives no rational reason for the existence of space and requires faith similar to that of a belief in god to consider it a viable solution. Other theories abound as to the nature of the existence of everything many by physicists who are more in touch with high level versions of pure mathematics than with the practicality of their theories.
Space exists wherever we are and it also exists millions of light years away as does the matter contained within it and the matter and space so far as we can detect obey most of the same rules of physics as we interpret them here, although there are some things that just don't, whatever the mechanism at work that determines the existence of space and matter, the commonality of physical laws indicates it has to be a very simple one and exists because it has to be that way to accommodate whatever it is that causes the existence of space and the matter we perceive contained within it. There is as far as anyone can detect no limit as to the size of the universe, which means that physical dimension does not apply to it. One possibility could be that space represents a version of time, and the only point that this version could be is as the present or now point. Time has a past state a future state and a present state but no physical dimension and it is from this that I am suggesting that if space also has no discernable physical dimension then we might conclude that space is the present or now point in time.

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Steve3007 » September 6th, 2017, 6:00 pm

Gordon975:
I have never encountered anyone giving a reason for its existence or a means by which it might exist, just a blind acceptance of it being there.
What do you suppose such a reason or means might look like? How would it differ fundamentally from other descriptions which we already find in physics?

Your complaint is one that is seen very, very frequently. What I think you and those many others are saying is that physics can describe but it cannot explain. We can ask "why does an apple fall from a tree?" and reply "because of gravity" and then ask "why does gravity exist" and reply "because of the curvature of space" or "because of gravitons" or some such thing. We can then ask "why is space curved?" or "why do gravitons exist?" and there might be yet another still deeper layer of description. But, as every child knows, we can always just keep asking "why?" or, as a well known particle physicist once put it: "who ordered that?"

Unless you can clearly identify the type of information that you are looking for when you ask the question "why", you will always get more of the same. Ever more broadly applicable models that yield descriptions and predictions of our observations. I don't know, but I suspect you don't really know the type of information that you want.
One possibility could be that space represents a version of time, and the only point that this version could be is as the present or now point. Time has a past state a future state and a present state but no physical dimension and it is from this that I am suggesting that if space also has no discernable physical dimension then we might conclude that space is the present or now point in time.
You are not the first person to suggest a mental model in which space ought to be regarded as being equal to some form of time. Not even the first person on this forum. A guy who called himself "Obvious Leo" was very fond of the idea. He'd spent a lot of time exploring it. It's an interesting enough idea, but it doesn't differ in any fundamental way from other mental models, such as more standard ideas from physics. It stands or falls by its ability to accurately describe and predict observations.

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Atreyu » September 6th, 2017, 8:21 pm

According to the modern theory of higher dimensions of 'space-time', you could certainly call space (that is, our 3-D space as we perceive and cognize it) as the "now point in time".

This can easily be seen by just understanding the simple timeline. The point which represents the present moment is what you are calling "space" (but it's really 3 dimensions of space, to be more specific), while all the other points on the timeline represent what we call "time" - the past and the future. Naturally, you could call the point we are "on", that is, the point which represents the present moment, as the "now point in time", or, to be more accurate, the "particular point on the line of time which we are experiencing right now".

The OP is simply the result of the original poster not understanding the idea of higher dimensions of 'space-time' adequately...

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Steve3007 » September 8th, 2017, 4:49 am

I also suspect (but I could be wrong) that the original poster might not realise precisely what one is saying when one says something like:
I propose as a topic for discussion that space is really a condition of time...
(From the opening of the OP. Bold added by me for emphasis.)

If we make a proposition like this about some scientific model and use a phrase like "is really", I think we have to be clear about what such mental and mathematical models as "space" are for. A proposition like this stands or falls by its ability to describe and predict observations. If we say something like:

"there is (really) a thing called space and it has 3 dimensions",

what we're saying (if we're doing science) is:

"I have a mathematical model called 3 dimensional space and I propose that the various logically self-consistent features of that model are very useful for describing various observations. My model will be used to the extent that it is descriptively and predicatively useful. Other models are also available."

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Ranvier » September 11th, 2017, 4:34 pm

Steve3007

What is a good model for space? What is your take on this?

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Steve3007 » September 11th, 2017, 5:08 pm

The idea that any position can be defined using 3 numbers seems like a pretty good model for most purposes. The 4 dimensional space-time model used by Einstein in General Relativity seems to work for a lot of purposes too. I'm happy with those myself.

But the concept of a "space" can also be used to quite good effect in other contexts. For example, there is a concept called "phase space" in which a physical system is modeled as a multi-dimensional space containing as many dimensions as there are degrees of freedom in the system. This means that a single "point" in this phase space represents a complete description of the state of the entire system at a point in time. It's useful for visualizing the evolution of a physical system over time.

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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Ranvier » September 11th, 2017, 6:29 pm

Interesting

How do you resolve the irrationality of time, which works equally well in both directions of time? How can these equations be an accurate description of space and time, when they can't predict the direction of time. We only know that time is in a certain direction because we observe the past, present, and predict the future but it's not revealed through the equations.

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