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Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Blake 789
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Blake 789 » May 27th, 2016, 7:09 am

Locations require physical space to be located within and space along with time only came into existence with the universe itself so you may as well ask what lays south of the south pole.

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Atreyu
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Atreyu » May 29th, 2016, 12:02 am

"The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe."

You need to think of this theory of Hubble's more like a flour dust explosion in a grain silo. It supposedly according to the theory of it happened all at once everywhere.
This sounds a bit like what I call the "Inflation Model", which I endorse.

The "Inflation Model" is called such, because it is compared to a balloon being blown up. In this Model, we begin with zero matter/mass/space, each of which grows over time concurrently. In the Big Bang Model, one begins with zero matter/space, but energy/mass is said to be roughly equivalent to what it is today. This leaves us with the odd, perverse, and dare I say highly unlikely, view of the primordial Universe as Everything existing being compacted into a single geometric point.

In the Inflation Model, we need to visualize no such odd primordial configuration. We begin with Nothing, or virtually Nothing, from which Something grows.

Now, there will always be those, particularly in contemporary society, who will argue that the latter view (Inflation) seems much more nonsensical and "odd" compared to the former view (Big Bang). For is it not more sensical to just imagine Everything compacted into a point, rather than imagining "Something" coming from "Nothing"?

My answer to this would be to say that it is, unless One can grasp the idea that "Something" (Anything) can only exist if a corresponding "Mind" or "Awareness" is present alongside it. A solitary primordial Mind, with no peers to oppose or contradict it, could indeed, and quite easily, create Something/Anything from apparent "Nothingness", which could only be cognized 13.7 billion years later by the modern scientist, trapped by his insistence on fixed mass/matter (conservation of mass), as some kind of "Big Bang".....

YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by YIOSTHEOY » May 29th, 2016, 12:28 am

Atreyu wrote:
"The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe."

You need to think of this theory of Hubble's more like a flour dust explosion in a grain silo. It supposedly according to the theory of it happened all at once everywhere.
This sounds a bit like what I call the "Inflation Model", which I endorse.

The "Inflation Model" is called such, because it is compared to a balloon being blown up. In this Model, we begin with zero matter/mass/space, each of which grows over time concurrently. In the Big Bang Model, one begins with zero matter/space, but energy/mass is said to be roughly equivalent to what it is today. This leaves us with the odd, perverse, and dare I say highly unlikely, view of the primordial Universe as Everything existing being compacted into a single geometric point.

In the Inflation Model, we need to visualize no such odd primordial configuration. We begin with Nothing, or virtually Nothing, from which Something grows.

Now, there will always be those, particularly in contemporary society, who will argue that the latter view (Inflation) seems much more nonsensical and "odd" compared to the former view (Big Bang). For is it not more sensical to just imagine Everything compacted into a point, rather than imagining "Something" coming from "Nothing"?

My answer to this would be to say that it is, unless One can grasp the idea that "Something" (Anything) can only exist if a corresponding "Mind" or "Awareness" is present alongside it. A solitary primordial Mind, with no peers to oppose or contradict it, could indeed, and quite easily, create Something/Anything from apparent "Nothingness", which could only be cognized 13.7 billion years later by the modern scientist, trapped by his insistence on fixed mass/matter (conservation of mass), as some kind of "Big Bang".....
Very nice analysis and summary.

I am reminded that Big Bang is just a convenient hypothesis about explaining why the Universe's expanding galaxies show a red shift.

Whereas some people make science their religion, and others make religion their science, it is unwise to make a hypothesis into a God.

As for me, Philosophy will remain my telescope and scalpel.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by UniversalAlien » May 29th, 2016, 7:46 am

Yes, so they say, everywhere at once - Why does that sound lke NOWHERE?

Because to say something occurred everywhere at once is meaningless - No such place.


Of course if you want to say it is meaningless question to ask "Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?" I might agree with you
IF the big band is really the beginning of all, if there aren't other big bangs, other universes, other dimensions of time and space.

If one day in the future we discover that there are indeed other universes - Than the question might actually become
meaningful, and then, and only then we could ask the question "Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?"







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Steve3007
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Steve3007 » May 29th, 2016, 7:59 am

YIOSTHEOY:
I am reminded that Big Bang is just a convenient hypothesis about explaining why the Universe's expanding galaxies show a red shift.
Yes. In the same sense that the presence of a computer keyboard beneath my fingers is just a convenient hypothesis for explaining various sensations I feel with my fingers and eyes. Alternative hypotheses to explain these red shift do exist but, as far as I'm aware, the Big Bang concept is the one that best fits the evidence so far.

YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by YIOSTHEOY » May 29th, 2016, 9:52 am

Steve3007 wrote:YIOSTHEOY:
I am reminded that Big Bang is just a convenient hypothesis about explaining why the Universe's expanding galaxies show a red shift.
Yes. In the same sense that the presence of a computer keyboard beneath my fingers is just a convenient hypothesis for explaining various sensations I feel with my fingers and eyes. Alternative hypotheses to explain these red shift do exist but, as far as I'm aware, the Big Bang concept is the one that best fits the evidence so far.
If it fits the observed data then it is a good theory indeed.

We must remember that in science we are always inferring from observed Empirical data.

Sometimes in some cases we can however design and experiment and measure the results and then deduce that the next experiment will result in the same observations. But that only works in the simplest of cases.

Most cases are way too complex to experiment with, so we are left with our crude inferred theories.

We must remember also that these theories of ours are only models.

The model is not the reality.

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Rr6
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Rr6 » May 29th, 2016, 9:56 am

Blake 789 wrote:Locations require physical space to be located within and space along with time only came into existence with the universe itself so you may as well ask what lays south of the south pole.
Not physical space, just space.

Physical space is occupied space specific to observed time/frequency ^v^ or as \/\/\/

Universe occupies space aka Uni-Verse

Outside/beyond our finite, occupied space Universe is the macro-infinite non-occupied space.

Inflation has space-time-- gravity is property of space-time---expanding at speeds far beyond that of EM-Radiation.

Ergo gravitational property of space-time, gravity, must also expand at speeds far beyond that of EM-Radiation.

Space-time appears to be gravity, however, with the discovery of dark energy, we may need to have a 2nd property of space-time ergo we may now have to consider Space - Time - Space.

Space a gravity, positive shaped, outer surface, geodesic arcs of occupied space ( )

Time as observed time is the inversion trajectories >^v< of occupied space, from the surface arcs of gravity and dark energy surface

Space as dark energy is the negative shaped, inner surface, geodesic arcs of occupied space )(.


Space -Time - Space exists in every particle of our finite, occupied space Universe. These are Space-Time-Vectors and are shaped like a torus. A bisection of the torus as follows shows gravity surface arcs ( ), observed time inversions >^v< and dark energy surface arcs )(

(>^v<)(>^v<)

Observed time/frequency/physical/energy/reality is often expressed via a sine-wave pattern ^v^v or as \/\/\/\/

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

Steve3007
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Steve3007 » May 29th, 2016, 1:03 pm

YIOSTHEOY:
If it fits the observed data then it is a good theory indeed.
Yes, if it consistently fits the data.
We must remember that in science we are always inferring from observed Empirical data.
As we are in everyday life. The model we have in our heads of an external world that continues to exist when we are not observing it is inferred.
Sometimes in some cases we can however design and experiment and measure the results and then deduce that the next experiment will result in the same observations. But that only works in the simplest of cases.
We hypothesize as to what the results of the next experiment will be. The idea that Nature follows patterns and that the next experiment's results will follow a pattern established by previous experiments is fundamental not just to science but to every aspect of how we make sense of the world. It is called Induction.

How do you define a "simple case"?
Most cases are way too complex to experiment with, so we are left with our crude inferred theories.
Remember, when we say "experiment" we don't just mean things that happen in a lab. We mean, in the most general sense, all empirical observations.
We must remember also that these theories of ours are only models. The model is not the reality.
Everything we think about the world is "only" a model. Is there anything at all we can say about this "reality" thing other than what we infer, as models, from our observations and experiments?

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Fanman
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Fanman » May 29th, 2016, 1:23 pm

My apologies if this has already been covered. If the big bang did occur before anything else existed, then wouldn't it had to have occurred outside of, or before space and time existed? Since the big bang is responsible for space and time, prior to its occurrence, there was no space or time. If so, where is "outside" of space and time – couldn't that be described as another dimension to the universe we reside in where space and time exist, because of the big bang?
Once a theist, now agnostic.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by UniversalAlien » May 29th, 2016, 5:25 pm

Fanman wrote:My apologies if this has already been covered. If the big bang did occur before anything else existed, then wouldn't it had to have occurred outside of, or before space and time existed? Since the big bang is responsible for space and time, prior to its occurrence, there was no space or time. If so, where is "outside" of space and time – couldn't that be described as another dimension to the universe we reside in where space and time exist, because of the big bang?
That might be pure speculation But:

Scientist May Have Found Proof Of
A cosmologist from the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) believes he may just have found proof that an alternate and parallel universe does indeed exist.

In a study featured in the Astrophysical Journal, researcher Ranga-Ram Chary described evidence of a cosmic bruising, or the bumping of one universe against another, which could be used to identify an anomaly he discovered on the cosmic microwave background map.........
See whole aritcle here:
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/10334 ... iverse.htm

The existence of an Alternate, Parallel Universe might drastically alter Man's perception of this one.

What if space and time are somewhat different in the other universe{s} - Is that possible? - Or would you assume space
nd time must be consistent throughout all of existence :?:






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Blake 789
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Blake 789 » June 3rd, 2016, 5:17 pm

What if space and time are somewhat different in the other universe{s} - Is that possible? - Or would you assume space
nd time must be consistent throughout all of existence :?:
Space and time isn't even consistence in our own universe time is relative to your location and rate of motion. If you left Earth at near light speed and returned 10 years later everyone you knew would be long dead the same kind of thing would happen if you lived on a planet orbiting somewhere in the vicinity of a black hole time would pass far more slowly for you than it would for people elsewhere.

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Felix
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Felix » June 3rd, 2016, 6:48 pm

In a study featured in the Astrophysical Journal, researcher Ranga-Ram Chary described evidence of a cosmic bruising
I warned that Universe not to drift over to that dingy section of the Cosmos, it could get mugged there, but it wouldn't listen! It got what it deserves for such rash behaviour!

But seriously, the solution is simple when you have the necessary environment: in this case you need a hyper-dimensional subzero womb in which your precious 3-D egg may hatch.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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BardoXV
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by BardoXV » August 8th, 2016, 9:53 pm

This is similar to the question of "where is the center of the Universe (expansion)?", and the usual answer is "everywhere is the center." So likewise the Big Bang occurred "everywhere" that now exists. Also the concept that something can not come from nothing, is not a valid concept, that is a concept that is good within human logic, but there is no requirement that the universe obey human logic or exist according to human expectations.

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Rr6
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Rr6 » August 10th, 2016, 1:31 pm

BardoXV wrote:This is similar to the question of "where is the center of the Universe (expansion)?", and the usual answer is "everywhere is the center." So likewise the Big Bang occurred "everywhere" that now exists. Also the concept that something can not come from nothing, is not a valid concept, that is a concept that is good within human logic, but there is no requirement that the universe obey human logic or exist according to human expectations.
"everywhere" within scenario of infinite Universe is illogical, irrational etc...

"Everywhere" within a finite Universe doesnet make sense either, but for different reason. In a finite Unierse, there does exist center, however, if Universe is not perfect sphere or any static abstract-lie geometry i.e. if Universe is in dynamic change of shape, irrespective of how little change, then the center is every changing due to changing shape of Universe.

A where infers/implies a location. There can be no where or location, if infinity is the reference system.

Consider, our human body as shape of Universe. If our belly grows larger, over time then the center changes to account for changes in perimeter of body.
If Universe is spherical, not a perfect sphere, then the changing surface lumps we mean center center changes in relation those perimeter changes.

I think our finite Universe is lumpy.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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BardoXV
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by BardoXV » August 10th, 2016, 4:53 pm

Rr6 wrote:
I think our finite Universe is lumpy.

r6

you may believe as you like but there is no evidence to prove either idea, but it is more reasonable to assume that the expansion is uniform in all directions, thus the universe is more spherical than not.

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