An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Halc
Posts: 405
Joined: March 17th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Halc »

Niebieskieucho wrote: November 23rd, 2018, 2:53 pm Yes, there is the theory of everything possible but all I familiarised with are irrational.
I am familiar with none. I suppose if there are some claimed, they're not supported due to inconsistency, which can be considered irrational.
Those who acknowledge to understanding of relativity, automatically admit to understanding of nonsense
It does pretty good, except for not being unified with QFT. I don't find it irrational, being consistent with its own premises.
User avatar
Kevin Levites
New Trial Member
Posts: 15
Joined: April 25th, 2019, 11:25 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Kevin Levites »

I believe that a theory of everything is possible, but I doubt that we (humans) currently have the intellectual tools to figure out a theory of everything.

Why?

Consider much simpler problems...like the four color conjecture.

Map makers have known--for centuries--that four colors are always adequate to draw a map, such that each political unit is a different color from the one adjacent to it.

It doesn't matter how convoluted, numerous, or fragmented the political units (ie: a state, for example) are....four colors (you don't want two or more states sharing a border to be the same color, as that causes confusion when you read the map) are always adequate.

So....mathematicians have worked with computers on the four color conjecture, including making any number of maps in any number of ways, yet it remains a conjecture because no one can come up with a mathematical proof that everyone accepts.

There was a proof proposed several years (decades?) ago that may have solved the issue, but the proof ran to several hundred pages, and included something like 2,100 maps and a statement that if an exception existed, it would be in these 2,100 maps....and since the exception wasn't there, then the four color conjecture could now be the four color theorem.....but this proof is rejected by many mathematicians for various reasons.

There are other similar problems in mathematics and physics like the three body problem, or Fermat's Last Theorem, and so forth.

My point is that if seemingly simple problems such as these stymie us despite our deep understanding of mathematics and physics, then how can we reasonably expect to formulate a theory of everything?

I'm not saying that the effort to do so isn't worthwhile, however. Many imporant advancements and discoveries have been made incidentally while going after something else.
growthhormone
Posts: 46
Joined: December 19th, 2017, 1:25 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by growthhormone »

Kevin Levites wrote: April 25th, 2019, 12:04 pm I believe that a theory of everything is possible, but I doubt that we (humans) currently have the intellectual tools to figure out a theory of everything.

Why?

Consider much simpler problems...like the four color conjecture.

Map makers have known--for centuries--that four colors are always adequate to draw a map, such that each political unit is a different color from the one adjacent to it.

It doesn't matter how convoluted, numerous, or fragmented the political units (ie: a state, for example) are....four colors (you don't want two or more states sharing a border to be the same color, as that causes confusion when you read the map) are always adequate.

So....mathematicians have worked with computers on the four color conjecture, including making any number of maps in any number of ways, yet it remains a conjecture because no one can come up with a mathematical proof that everyone accepts.

There was a proof proposed several years (decades?) ago that may have solved the issue, but the proof ran to several hundred pages, and included something like 2,100 maps and a statement that if an exception existed, it would be in these 2,100 maps....and since the exception wasn't there, then the four color conjecture could now be the four color theorem.....but this proof is rejected by many mathematicians for various reasons.

There are other similar problems in mathematics and physics like the three body problem, or Fermat's Last Theorem, and so forth.

My point is that if seemingly simple problems such as these stymie us despite our deep understanding of mathematics and physics, then how can we reasonably expect to formulate a theory of everything?

I'm not saying that the effort to do so isn't worthwhile, however. Many imporant advancements and discoveries have been made incidentally while going after something else.
Can this model provide an alternative: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oaNK5cmCcZ4
growthhormone
Posts: 46
Joined: December 19th, 2017, 1:25 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by growthhormone »

growthhormone wrote: April 26th, 2019, 10:58 pm
Kevin Levites wrote: April 25th, 2019, 12:04 pm I believe that a theory of everything is possible, but I doubt that we (humans) currently have the intellectual tools to figure out a theory of everything.

Why?

Consider much simpler problems...like the four color conjecture.

Map makers have known--for centuries--that four colors are always adequate to draw a map, such that each political unit is a different color from the one adjacent to it.

It doesn't matter how convoluted, numerous, or fragmented the political units (ie: a state, for example) are....four colors (you don't want two or more states sharing a border to be the same color, as that causes confusion when you read the map) are always adequate.

So....mathematicians have worked with computers on the four color conjecture, including making any number of maps in any number of ways, yet it remains a conjecture because no one can come up with a mathematical proof that everyone accepts.

There was a proof proposed several years (decades?) ago that may have solved the issue, but the proof ran to several hundred pages, and included something like 2,100 maps and a statement that if an exception existed, it would be in these 2,100 maps....and since the exception wasn't there, then the four color conjecture could now be the four color theorem.....but this proof is rejected by many mathematicians for various reasons.

There are other similar problems in mathematics and physics like the three body problem, or Fermat's Last Theorem, and so forth.

My point is that if seemingly simple problems such as these stymie us despite our deep understanding of mathematics and physics, then how can we reasonably expect to formulate a theory of everything?

I'm not saying that the effort to do so isn't worthwhile, however. Many imporant advancements and discoveries have been made incidentally while going after something else.
Can this model provide an alternative: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oaNK5cmCcZ4
If this mathematic model is not the answer, why can it unite three laws of Newton’s motion, four laws of thermodynamics, Special Relativity, Heisenberg uncertainty principle? I am confuse... Is QM and Relativity not reconcilable? Is there any existing hypothesis that can unite these laws?

On a deeper level, the following fundamental interrelationships can be united by this model, including causality, phase transition, critical point, convergence, divergence, contraction, expansion, similarity, commonality, difference, common mechanism, symmetry, asymmetry, hierarchical structure, order, disorder, periodicity, limitation, without limitation, singularity, plurality, dynamic change, stability. Please excuse my ignorance, I am not aware of any existing hypothesis that can unite these interrelationships but this model. If anyone know, please shed some light.

From the video, this model demonstrates that the third law of Newton’s motion, Special Relativity and one of the principles of QM, Heisenberg uncertainty principle are united on the fundamental interrelationships, symmetry-asymmetry. They are the specific expressions of this fundamental interrelationship.

It is on the fundamental level that social science and natural science are united, and further, science and philosophy.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Steve3007 »

Kevin Levites wrote:I believe that a theory of everything is possible, but I doubt that we (humans) currently have the intellectual tools to figure out a theory of everything.

Why?

Consider much simpler problems...like the four color conjecture...
I don't know whether a Theory Of Everything is discover-able using human intellectual tools, but I don't really agree with your line of reasoning as to why it is probably not. I don't think the four colour problem and the others that you mention are directly relevant to the TOE. There are various unsolved problems in the world but our inability to solve them does not logical preclude us from solving other problems. There are various types of problem that are either solvable or unsolvable for all sorts of different, more or less unrelated, reasons.

For example, the three body problem that you mentioned in your post is analytically unsolvable for reasons that are similar to the unpredictability of weather. They're related to the non-linearity of the equations that describe the state of the system at any given time and the consequent necessity to use approximate numerical techniques, as opposed to precise analytical techniques, to make predictions about the system.

If we ever did devise a TOE then we would do so while still being unable to precisely predict whether it will be raining a month from now.
User avatar
Kevin Levites
New Trial Member
Posts: 15
Joined: April 25th, 2019, 11:25 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Kevin Levites »

Steve3007 wrote: April 29th, 2019, 7:38 am
Kevin Levites wrote:I believe that a theory of everything is possible, but I doubt that we (humans) currently have the intellectual tools to figure out a theory of everything.

Why?

Consider much simpler problems...like the four color conjecture...
I don't know whether a Theory Of Everything is discover-able using human intellectual tools, but I don't really agree with your line of reasoning as to why it is probably not. I don't think the four colour problem and the others that you mention are directly relevant to the TOE. There are various unsolved problems in the world but our inability to solve them does not logical preclude us from solving other problems. There are various types of problem that are either solvable or unsolvable for all sorts of different, more or less unrelated, reasons.

For example, the three body problem that you mentioned in your post is analytically unsolvable for reasons that are similar to the unpredictability of weather. They're related to the non-linearity of the equations that describe the state of the system at any given time and the consequent necessity to use approximate numerical techniques, as opposed to precise analytical techniques, to make predictions about the system.

If we ever did devise a TOE then we would do so while still being unable to precisely predict whether it will be raining a month from now.
I didn't think of it in those terms, but I get your points....and I suppose I have to (reluctantly) agree with you.
User avatar
detail
Posts: 171
Joined: June 1st, 2019, 1:39 pm

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by detail »

Even if it would be possible the theory of everything is not the solution of everything. Just think about Goedel's theorem that the amount of correct mathematical theorems is uncountable. But one could make the objection that this is not the amount of mathematical fertile or estetic theorems. Nevertheless the theory of everything , cannot create a mathematical solution for every initial condition feasible and relevant in practical application. It's just half the job.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Sculptor1 »

growthhormone wrote: January 31st, 2018, 10:39 pm An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible? This is also called "Ultimate Theory possible". Is it possible to use a single theory to describe the universe (everything)?
I think this one has been tried and has failed miserably.
It was called monotheism.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

growthhormone wrote: January 31st, 2018, 10:39 pm An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible? This is also called "Ultimate Theory possible". Is it possible to use a single theory to describe the universe (everything)?
1) I think you should define what you mean by 'describe the universe'. IOW most physics for example doesn't strive to describe everything, but to come up with rules and models in a more general way, then able to predict and explain in specific instances. But no one is looking in the toe to describe all the faces on earth. 2) I can't demonstrate this, though perhaps someone can: I suspect that to answer that question one would need to have something very close to a TOE. I mean, what would I have to know to be able to rule out a TOE. It would certainly have to be an incredibly deep and broad understanding of the universe.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by Felix »

"We must be clear that when it comes to atoms, language can only be used as in poetry." — Niels Bohr

If we embellished that thought, we would conclude that a scientific theory of everything would be a really lovely poem.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
sandman
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: September 30th, 2019, 12:47 pm

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by sandman »

How would you know when you are aware of everything, all processes, all particles, etc?
The theory would have to account for these things.
What is ‘everything’?
User avatar
dipta
New Trial Member
Posts: 6
Joined: January 28th, 2020, 10:42 pm

Re: An ultimate philosophical question: is the theory of every thing possible?

Post by dipta »

If we can unite GR with Quantum Mechanics, how can we be sure it is really the true theory of everything and there is not another theory more fundamental than that?

In the late 1800s, before GM and Quantum Mechanics were discovered, physicists thought we already discovered 99% law of physics.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021