Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Felix »

Greta: Those with less will to live survived less than those who had a strong survival urge, and the latter passed on more of their genes.
You have said nothing more than "those who survived had a will to survive" - obviously. And where was this survival urge prior to the existence of genes and genetic codes? Thinking critical's suggestion that is chemically based is nonexplanatory.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Mark1955 »

Felix wrote: September 5th, 2018, 1:28 amI find it difficult to view life as a mindless mechanical process that is subject to the vagaries of random variation. I don't see why such a process would lead to a progressive evolution, I would think that it would instead produce rather static results.
If something changes the change will have an impact. Simple example, a bacteria suffers a mutation which corrupts one of the proteins it uses to metabolise sugar. Unable to generate energy from sugar this bacteria will die unless it has an alternative source of energy. If this source of energy is less efficient it will breed more slowly. In either case the non mutated bacteria will swamp the population of mutated ones. Since 95% of all mutations are detrimental this is the most likely occurrence, but in the 5% of events where the mutation is beneficial, the bacteria can metabolise sugar faster, then the mutant will replicate faster and become the dominant strain. Since mutation is always occuring, it being largely a random event, nothing is ever stable. A clear example of this happening is bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics. It happens, we can see it happening, we kill literally billions of the little sods, but some place some time a mutation produces a resistant strain and next thing you know we're knee deep in them.
Felix wrote: September 5th, 2018, 1:28 am So something more than natural selection is driving it, perhaps some sort of hidden will in nature as I suggested.
The curse of the philosophy of science is that things that are hidden are generally discounted when another explanation is available. By rule we adopt the simplest explanation that fits the available evidence.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2837
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Hereandnow »

mark1955
There is no why, it just happens, although suffering is of course your view of things.
It just happens? Well, of course it does, and the rain just happens, but this doesn't mean we don't look more closely at the weather. And this spear in my side, that is not my view of things.
But anyway, look more closely at suffering and you might see that while there is no identifiable empirical "answer" to the question, you know, standing there all day screaming at the heavens yields nothing, nor does looking through telescopes and the like, the question does not therefore vanish as if you were looking for an alternative to plate tectonics theory and came up empty handed. It has a palpable presence, all of this disease, hunger, misery and the rest. This kind of thing is very different.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14942
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Sy Borg »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: September 6th, 2018, 12:57 am
Greta wrote: September 5th, 2018, 4:58 pm The will to live is a naturally selected trait.
I don't know if this is a response to me, but I have said this several times. But I want say again, we do not need to reduce the will to the will to survive. The will is more general and even pursuing despite obstacles goals that do not seem related to survival have effects on survival and even more so on how much one gets to procreate and the resources the spawn have.
You are suggesting that the survival instinct as a narrow part of something broader?

My impression is that the extrapolations are still the result of raw survival instinct. Instincts by definition are not reason or reasonable. You can be the most multi billionaire and still be so painfully insecure that even small criticisms are treated as existential threats.
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

I think all y’all [ I love that phrase] are abusing the concept of “will”.

Greta correctly points out that we have a number of instincts that help us survive, but these instincts do not create a “will to live”. These instincts, or desires, especially the major drives (the four F’s) are each control mechanisms that keep certain physiological traits at a certain level. The “Food” mechanism keeps our blood sugar (and probably some other things) at a certain level. Our “Fear” mechanism keeps our pain at a certain level (preferably zero). You can consider these desired levels as the goals of the instinct/desire. These and other mechanisms exist because they tend to help us survive.

Now there is another mechanism we have which helps us survive, and that is the one that allows us to generate abstract goals. And this is where “will” comes in, because along with the mechanism to create goals came the ability to focus on such goals. When we focus on one goal, the mechanism suppresses other goals, possibly including, at least to some extent, the instinctual goals. “Will” is an indication of how much of the other goals we can suppress. So a common test of will is holding your hand over a candle flame. You need to suppress the goal of avoiding pain.

And finally we come to a “will to live”. This comes about when we create “living” as an abstract goal. So a will to live is an indication of our ability to suppress other goals in order to promote that one goal. The preeminent (?) example is the guy who cut off his own arm which held him trapped after a fall while rock climbing. Now I know there are animals who have knawed off limbs to escape traps, but I doubt they had “living” as an abstract goal. Instead, I will wager they had a desire to not be trapped which competed with the desire to not have pain, and won.

*
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Burning ghost »

Hereandnow wrote: September 4th, 2018, 8:45 pm
ThomasHobbes
Natural Selection is not a force or cause. It is an effect. It's an effect of variation.

When you understand that you will see how no other explanation is necessary.
You don't say. Tell Master Hobbes, why are we born to suffer and die?
Who says this? Because you assert something it doesn’t make it true. Better to say “If we’re born only to suffer and die then why could this possibly be so?”

To which we could come up with a multitude of speculative ideas and propositions - which could be fun - yet at base the question is an empty one.

Within limits of some field fo invstigation it makes perfect logical sense to ask about causal relations and how things work. Teleologically I am not really sure what purpose we are reaching for if asking questions about reasons for suffering and dying, rather we can down to coming to terms with these brute facts as best we can.

If we look at this as a book unread then we down ask about what the purpose is of reading the book and decide not to read it because of this. We start to read and see if we can glean something useful for ourselves and if we cannot we may not be so ready to pick up another “book”. It seems overall though that we’re always going to “read” said “book/s” so why not get to it and see what kind of interesting story we can find and even participate in.

The “book” of suffing and death gives a say to realise teh spectru within which they lie; some take the opposite of death to be life and suffering to be pleasure - not me, but whatever which way you sort through it the field of experience and understanding takes on more dimensions.

Anyway, the OP seems rather naff. Evolution is an obvious truth even if we’re far from understanding its machinations. I always fear closet Creationists lurk in threads like this

The most overwhelmingly universal pattern in nature is entropy. We’ve no idea what it is only that apparent homeostasis is like a eddy in a onward flowing river. It’s downhill all the way even if you get stuck for a while in a little whirlpool. The whirl is beautiful though right!? ;)
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Thinking critical »

Felix wrote: September 6th, 2018, 12:01 pm
Greta: Those with less will to live survived less than those who had a strong survival urge, and the latter passed on more of their genes.
You have said nothing more than "those who survived had a will to survive" - obviously. And where was this survival urge prior to the existence of genes and genetic codes? Thinking critical's suggestion that is chemically based is nonexplanatory.
The bio chemical explanation describes the process which drives living organisms to procreate such as natural pheromones e.c.t..
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14942
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Sy Borg »

Thinking critical wrote: September 7th, 2018, 7:18 am
Felix wrote: September 6th, 2018, 12:01 pmYou have said nothing more than "those who survived had a will to survive" - obviously. And where was this survival urge prior to the existence of genes and genetic codes? Thinking critical's suggestion that is chemically based is nonexplanatory.
The bio chemical explanation describes the process which drives living organisms to procreate such as natural pheromones e.c.t..
The biochemistry certainly is critical. The survival instinct was born of chemical and physical reflexes, but has developed enough to confuse owners as to the origin of their will.

For example, avoiding danger. The 'danger sensing' of microbes stems from innate responses like that of the immune system. Since we are ourselves effectively a world of microbial colonies, you could say that the answer to this question truly lies within :)

That's why nervous systems and brains exist; when nerves and data processing emerged, they aided survival by allowing for flexible responses rather than rigid chemical reflexes. The existence of brains tells us that flexibility and adaptability are potent survival traits.
User avatar
SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by SimpleGuy »

Well if natural selection would be something constant. Natural selection can even select people with a superior immune system , that are as a result (of a genetic mutation) degraded in their mental capablities. A selection would simply claim some kind of utility function in a way. But how biochemistry of plants changed, due to the mass extiction of fern plants in the jurassic times of dinosaurs, even the microbiological bacterial environment changes.
Thus there can be no proclaimed plan in evolution it's stochastic and chooses over huge time scales with random choice. There is a selection but the criterions don't stay constant.
User avatar
Frewah
Posts: 45
Joined: September 30th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Frewah »

What comes to mind is mutation. I *think* it explains the creation of flowers. It may explain the creation of cellulose which is very neat for trees so that all the good stuff, which some dinosaurs fed on, would no longer be within reach.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by LuckyR »

I don't believe this thread has even scratched the surface of horizontal gene transfer (or lateral gene transfer)
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Mark1955 »

LuckyR wrote: October 3rd, 2018, 6:16 pm I don't believe this thread has even scratched the surface of horizontal gene transfer (or lateral gene transfer)
Lets start https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5116166/
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by Burning ghost »

Would it be helpful to lock this thread and start up one with a more suitable title?

Maybe something like “Our Understanding of Evolutionary Processes” or “Big Questions about Evolutionary Processes”?

Note: Just don’t want people to read the title of this thread and ignore it - the title is rather off kilter having presented “Natural Selection” as a “Force”.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Burning ghost wrote: October 7th, 2018, 3:20 am Would it be helpful to lock this thread and start up one with a more suitable title?

Maybe something like “Our Understanding of Evolutionary Processes” or “Big Questions about Evolutionary Processes”?

Note: Just don’t want people to read the title of this thread and ignore it - the title is rather off kilter having presented “Natural Selection” as a “Force”.
Indeed it is.

What forces NS to work is the need to survive, which is also not really a distinct force per se. And how NS works is through the "force" of death, and failure to reproduce. Were we to use the metaphor of 'force' they would have to be 'negative forces'; and such a term is contradictory.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is There Another Force Besides Natural Selection?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

LuckyR wrote: October 3rd, 2018, 6:16 pm I don't believe this thread has even scratched the surface of horizontal gene transfer (or lateral gene transfer)
Microbes are not as sexy as macro-organisms.
Locked

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021