Thoughts on Time and Space.

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Present awareness
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

Things are as they are, regardless of what we may call them. Change only occurs by comparison, no comparison=no change. Time is simply a measurement of change and measurements exist in the mind of one whom measures. Space is the NOW point in time. Without the zero point of space, there would be no starting point to measure time. It is NOW everywhere in the universe since everything in the universe exist in space.
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creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

h_k_s wrote: December 12th, 2019, 10:00 pm
Thomyum2 wrote: December 12th, 2019, 5:01 pm

For something that doesn't exist, it sure has a lot of practical applications. Can you explain to us how a traveler could know when to be at the airport to catch a flight, or even how the farmer who grows the food we eat would know when to plant the seeds, without having some sense of this 'non-existent' notion of time in Einstein's head?
Those are all a function of CHANGE, not of TIME.

The situation in the present is constantly changing.

We live in the present. There is no past nor future. The present is simply changing constantly.

Time does not exist.

Explaining to all of you all that time does not exist is like explaining to the peoples of the dark ages that the Earth is a sphere not a flat pancake.
Who does "all of you" refer to?

Could it be true that actually someone is already ahead of you in what you are trying to explain, and could explain to 'you' how you could better explain what it is that you are trying to explain here?

Or, is it just a fact that "all of us" are way behind 'you' like "we all" are in the dark ages?
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

Explanations are based on words. Words are based on sounds in the air. Sounds in the air are only vibrations to which we attach images. It does not matter what the sound is, just as long as at lest one other person agrees to it’s meaning, hence so many different languages! Words like “time” or “space” mean different things to different people.

Saying something, does not make it so! Opinions vary, so how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one? The short answer is, one may not! For example, some may not have the capacity to understand certain concepts while other may simply choose to ignore anything which doesn’t agree with their cherished beliefs. What does it matter anyway? Philosophy is not so much about whom is right or wrong, but rather a way of looking at things, to help us along the road as we journey through life. When the end comes, as surly it will, we will each get to experience personally, that which up to now, we simply philosophize about.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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h_k_s
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by h_k_s »

creation wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 8:33 am
h_k_s wrote: December 12th, 2019, 10:00 pm

Those are all a function of CHANGE, not of TIME.

The situation in the present is constantly changing.

We live in the present. There is no past nor future. The present is simply changing constantly.

Time does not exist.

Explaining to all of you all that time does not exist is like explaining to the peoples of the dark ages that the Earth is a sphere not a flat pancake.
Who does "all of you" refer to?

Could it be true that actually someone is already ahead of you in what you are trying to explain, and could explain to 'you' how you could better explain what it is that you are trying to explain here?

Or, is it just a fact that "all of us" are way behind 'you' like "we all" are in the dark ages?
All of you is/are all who believe time exists. It does not.

Like mathematics, time is a creation and illusion of the human mind.

Outside of the human mind, time and mathematics do not exist.

This is an issue of Metaphysics that most people just do not get. They have all been brainwashed to look at clocks and watches and think time therefore exists.
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Steve3007 »

Present awareness wrote:Saying something, does not make it so! Opinions vary, so how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one? The short answer is, one may not!
Indeed, simply saying something doesn't make it certainly so. If by "prove" you mean "demonstrate to be a logically certain truth" then you're right; most propositions cannot be proven (in that sense) to be correct. The only propositions that can be proven to be correct are those that it would be logically self-contradictory to deny. The only propositions that can be proven to be false are oxymorons. In those cases, the proof consists of elucidating those self-contradictions. Other types of propositions include simple empirical statements such as "it is raining", assignments of labels such as "that is a cat" [points to a cat], propositions about causal chains of the form "if you want X then do Y" and statements of personal preference of the form "I want X" or "I think X is good and Y is bad". None of those can be logically proven to be true or false. Yet we all make such propositions every day.

What do you conclude from this? Do you conclude that there is no point in proposing anything and that we're all wasting our time?
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

h_k_s wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 10:33 pm
creation wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 8:33 am

Who does "all of you" refer to?

Could it be true that actually someone is already ahead of you in what you are trying to explain, and could explain to 'you' how you could better explain what it is that you are trying to explain here?

Or, is it just a fact that "all of us" are way behind 'you' like "we all" are in the dark ages?
All of you is/are all who believe time exists. It does not.

Like mathematics, time is a creation and illusion of the human mind.

Outside of the human mind, time and mathematics do not exist.

This is an issue of Metaphysics that most people just do not get. They have all been brainwashed to look at clocks and watches and think time therefore exists.
As long as you are not putting me in with that group 'who do not get it', then all is good.

Those people are just reacting on only what they have been told and taught, and so are not able to see the obviousness of what you are trying to explain. The very reason why they cannot see the truth is because they believe the opposite is true.

By the way just like most people do not get that 'time' itself is not a physical thing, and it just word to describe the measuring between two points or even ents, and so exists only in concept, or thought, so to most people do not get that is no such thing as the 'human mind'. But just like most people are told and taught to believe that time exists as some actual real thing so to are most people are told and taught to believe that there actually is a human mind. These people are just reacting to past experiences and as such are also not able to see this obvious truth as well.
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

Steve3007 wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 6:04 am
Present awareness wrote:Saying something, does not make it so! Opinions vary, so how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one? The short answer is, one may not!
Indeed, simply saying something doesn't make it certainly so. If by "prove" you mean "demonstrate to be a logically certain truth" then you're right; most propositions cannot be proven (in that sense) to be correct. The only propositions that can be proven to be correct are those that it would be logically self-contradictory to deny. The only propositions that can be proven to be false are oxymorons. In those cases, the proof consists of elucidating those self-contradictions. Other types of propositions include simple empirical statements such as "it is raining", assignments of labels such as "that is a cat" [points to a cat], propositions about causal chains of the form "if you want X then do Y" and statements of personal preference of the form "I want X" or "I think X is good and Y is bad". None of those can be logically proven to be true or false. Yet we all make such propositions every day.

What do you conclude from this? Do you conclude that there is no point in proposing anything and that we're all wasting our time?
No Steve, I do not conclude that their is no point in proposing anything, only that one should not become emotionally attached to ideas or opinions. Regardless of what we think about something, it does not change how things are.

I am reminded of the story about a seeker of truth whom finds a zen master meditating on a mountain. The seeker says “master, what is the secret to peace and happiness?” And the master says “never argue or beg to differ” . The seeker says “that’s not the secret to peace and happiness!” And the master say “ok, that’s not the secret to peace and happiness”.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Steve3007 »

Present awareness wrote:No Steve, I do not conclude that their is no point in proposing anything, only that one should not become emotionally attached to ideas or opinions. Regardless of what we think about something, it does not change how things are.
Ok, fair enough. I agree that, ideally, one should not become emotionally attached to ideas or opinions if one wants to be able to examine them critically. But people are, by their nature, emotional beings. Most people are, to some extent, emotionally invested in their opinions.
I am reminded of the story about a seeker of truth whom finds a zen master meditating on a mountain. The seeker says “master, what is the secret to peace and happiness?” And the master says “never argue or beg to differ” . The seeker says “that’s not the secret to peace and happiness!” And the master say “ok, that’s not the secret to peace and happiness”.
:-). Good one. That reminds me of a Monty Python sketch in which a man pays to have an argument and then gets involved in an argument about whether the argument has started yet. I could probably post a YouTube video of it here, but it would clutter up the topic so I won't.
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by h_k_s »

creation wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 7:35 am
h_k_s wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 10:33 pm

All of you is/are all who believe time exists. It does not.

Like mathematics, time is a creation and illusion of the human mind.

Outside of the human mind, time and mathematics do not exist.

This is an issue of Metaphysics that most people just do not get. They have all been brainwashed to look at clocks and watches and think time therefore exists.
As long as you are not putting me in with that group 'who do not get it', then all is good.

Those people are just reacting on only what they have been told and taught, and so are not able to see the obviousness of what you are trying to explain. The very reason why they cannot see the truth is because they believe the opposite is true.

By the way just like most people do not get that 'time' itself is not a physical thing, and it just word to describe the measuring between two points or even ents, and so exists only in concept, or thought, so to most people do not get that is no such thing as the 'human mind'. But just like most people are told and taught to believe that time exists as some actual real thing so to are most people are told and taught to believe that there actually is a human mind. These people are just reacting to past experiences and as such are also not able to see this obvious truth as well.
"Mind" (of humans) is a separate matter.

We simply do not know what it is.

Aristotle called it "pneuma" in Greek, which means "breath" or "soul."

In American and British English language, "soul" is a religious concept from Catholicism, Anglicanism, or other Protestantism. (Note that Anglicanism is a subset/form of Protestantism within Christianity, but I state it separately because it is the official UK religion and predominates in England, where the English language comes from.)

I personally do not know if "mind" exists or not.

I do not know if my consciousness (which to me, anecdotally, is "mind") exists independently of my body, nor do I know if my consciousness will exist after I am dead physically.

So I cannot agree nor disagree with you about "mind." I simply do not know, philosophically (the highest form of "knowing").

I suppose therefore that I don't completely agree with Descartes regarding "Cogito ergo sum."

While I do believe that Cogito ergo sum is philosophically valid, I suppose I don't regard it as absolute truth.

Q.E.D.
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by h_k_s »

creation wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 8:33 am
h_k_s wrote: December 12th, 2019, 10:00 pm

Those are all a function of CHANGE, not of TIME.

The situation in the present is constantly changing.

We live in the present. There is no past nor future. The present is simply changing constantly.

Time does not exist.

Explaining to all of you all that time does not exist is like explaining to the peoples of the dark ages that the Earth is a sphere not a flat pancake.
Who does "all of you" refer to?

Could it be true that actually someone is already ahead of you in what you are trying to explain, and could explain to 'you' how you could better explain what it is that you are trying to explain here?

Or, is it just a fact that "all of us" are way behind 'you' like "we all" are in the dark ages?
creation you seem quite bright and also very well versed in Philosophy.

You should pick a good avatar to go with your moniker.

The talking head generic avatar is unworthy of you.

Plus you would be easier to remember with a unique avatar.

So that's my recommendation.
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

h_k_s wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 5:13 pm
creation wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 7:35 am

As long as you are not putting me in with that group 'who do not get it', then all is good.

Those people are just reacting on only what they have been told and taught, and so are not able to see the obviousness of what you are trying to explain. The very reason why they cannot see the truth is because they believe the opposite is true.

By the way just like most people do not get that 'time' itself is not a physical thing, and it just word to describe the measuring between two points or even ents, and so exists only in concept, or thought, so to most people do not get that is no such thing as the 'human mind'. But just like most people are told and taught to believe that time exists as some actual real thing so to are most people are told and taught to believe that there actually is a human mind. These people are just reacting to past experiences and as such are also not able to see this obvious truth as well.
"Mind" (of humans) is a separate matter.
Yes very true.

But the point I was trying to make is, just like you say others do not get the fact that time does not exist, which seems to completely baffle you why they are like that, i am making the point that the human mind also does not exist, but you, yourself are unable to get this fact, as well.

So, just like others do not yet understand that time does not exist, you are the exact same as them, as you do not yet understand that the human mind does not exist also.

Now are you going to be as hard and as critical on 'yourself' as you are on them?

My point is there is an actual reason why people do not yet understand something, which is yet very obvious to others.

Understanding this reason, then you will understand why they do not get that time does not exist.
h_k_s wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 5:13 pmWe simply do not know what it is.
This is exactly like when people say, "We simply do not know what time is". People who you are discussing with about time, and they do not have your exact view, also say things like what you have just said here.

Also, just because you simply do not yet know what something is, this does not mean I nor another do not already know what it is, okay and understand?
h_k_s wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 5:13 pmAristotle called it "pneuma" in Greek, which means "breath" or "soul."

In American and British English language, "soul" is a religious concept from Catholicism, Anglicanism, or other Protestantism. (Note that Anglicanism is a subset/form of Protestantism within Christianity, but I state it separately because it is the official UK religion and predominates in England, where the English language comes from.)
Okay, noted.
h_k_s wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 5:13 pmI personally do not know if "mind" exists or not.
Now this is a much better statement.

Speaking for 'you' instead of for 'me' or 'others', then you will be more right and correct.
h_k_s wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 5:13 pmI do not know if my consciousness (which to me, anecdotally, is "mind") exists independently of my body, nor do I know if my consciousness will exist after I am dead physically.

So I cannot agree nor disagree with you about "mind." I simply do not know, philosophically (the highest form of "knowing").

I suppose therefore that I don't completely agree with Descartes regarding "Cogito ergo sum."

While I do believe that Cogito ergo sum is philosophically valid, I suppose I don't regard it as absolute truth.
Just so you are aware what I said was never at all about the 'mind' itself. I used that word just to describe and show the action of what others do, you do the exact same thing, when in the exact same situation.

You have now shown this resemblance for me quite nicely already thanks.
h_k_s wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 5:13 pmQ.E.D.
Why did you write this here?
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Present awareness wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 9:32 pm Explanations are based on words. Words are based on sounds in the air. Sounds in the air are only vibrations to which we attach images. It does not matter what the sound is, just as long as at lest one other person agrees to it’s meaning, hence so many different languages! Words like “time” or “space” mean different things to different people.

Saying something, does not make it so! Opinions vary, so how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one? The short answer is, one may not!
Another short answer is, with agreement.
Present awareness wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 9:32 pmFor example, some may not have the capacity to understand certain concepts while other may simply choose to ignore anything which doesn’t agree with their cherished beliefs. What does it matter anyway? Philosophy is not so much about whom is right or wrong, but rather a way of looking at things, to help us along the road as we journey through life. When the end comes, as surly it will, we will each get to experience personally, that which up to now, we simply philosophize about.
Is the end, surely?

Do you have the capacity to understand a certain concept like there is no end, or may not be?
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 1:27 pm
Present awareness wrote:No Steve, I do not conclude that their is no point in proposing anything, only that one should not become emotionally attached to ideas or opinions. Regardless of what we think about something, it does not change how things are.
Ok, fair enough. I agree that, ideally, one should not become emotionally attached to ideas or opinions if one wants to be able to examine them critically. But people are, by their nature, emotional beings. Most people are, to some extent, emotionally invested in their opinions.
But the point is they do not have to be.

For example, to work out what time and space actually are could be done extremely quickly if people were not emotionally invested, or invested in anyway, to their already held opinions.

Being an emotional being does not mean that one has to be emotional in inappropriate circumstances, like with opinions, views, ideas, thoughts, et cetera.

Also, the very reason why people have become to be emotionally invested in opinions, means that they can prevent themselves from being emotionally invested in their opinions.
I am reminded of the story about a seeker of truth whom finds a zen master meditating on a mountain. The seeker says “master, what is the secret to peace and happiness?” And the master says “never argue or beg to differ” . The seeker says “that’s not the secret to peace and happiness!” And the master say “ok, that’s not the secret to peace and happiness”.
Besides this, it is a complete waste of time and energy anyway trying to tell anyone something contrary to what they believe is true. If someone believes something to be true, then the other might as well just walk away. There is absolutely nothing in the Universe that could convert or change someone who believes something.
Steve3007 wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 1:27 pm:-). Good one. That reminds me of a Monty Python sketch in which a man pays to have an argument and then gets involved in an argument about whether the argument has started yet. I could probably post a YouTube video of it here, but it would clutter up the topic so I won't.
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

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creation wrote: December 24th, 2019, 11:10 am
Present awareness wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 9:32 pm Explanations are based on words. Words are based on sounds in the air. Sounds in the air are only vibrations to which we attach images. It does not matter what the sound is, just as long as at lest one other person agrees to it’s meaning, hence so many different languages! Words like “time” or “space” mean different things to different people.

Saying something, does not make it so! Opinions vary, so how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one? The short answer is, one may not!
Another short answer is, with agreement.
Present awareness wrote: December 22nd, 2019, 9:32 pmFor example, some may not have the capacity to understand certain concepts while other may simply choose to ignore anything which doesn’t agree with their cherished beliefs. What does it matter anyway? Philosophy is not so much about whom is right or wrong, but rather a way of looking at things, to help us along the road as we journey through life. When the end comes, as surly it will, we will each get to experience personally, that which up to now, we simply philosophize about.
Is the end, surely?

Do you have the capacity to understand a certain concept like there is no end, or may not be?
Two people in agreement, does not make something true, other then two people agreeing with each other.

Do you have the capacity to understand the concept of no beginning?
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

There are beginnings and endings to all things in the universe as nothing is permanent. However, if we look closely enough, we may notice that all beginnings and endings are just arbitrary points in the infinite space/time continuum. We might consider that our personal beginning started at conception and our personal ending will arrive with death, however, prior to conception, we existed in the form of a separate egg and sperm cell, going back to our parent, grandparent, great grandparents etc.

The universe has always been here, life has always been here and we have always been here, only not in our present form.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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