Thoughts on Time and Space.

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creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Present awareness wrote: December 25th, 2019, 11:16 am
creation wrote: December 24th, 2019, 11:10 am

Another short answer is, with agreement.



Is the end, surely?

Do you have the capacity to understand a certain concept like there is no end, or may not be?
Two people in agreement, does not make something true, other then two people agreeing with each other.
Two people in agreement, also does not make anything not true.

If, as you say, agreement does not make something true, then what does make something true?
Present awareness wrote: December 25th, 2019, 11:16 amDo you have the capacity to understand the concept of no beginning?
Yes.
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Present awareness
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

creation wrote: December 26th, 2019, 8:05 pm
Present awareness wrote: December 25th, 2019, 11:16 am

Two people in agreement, does not make something true, other then two people agreeing with each other.
Two people in agreement, also does not make anything not true.

If, as you say, agreement does not make something true, then what does make something true?
Present awareness wrote: December 25th, 2019, 11:16 amDo you have the capacity to understand the concept of no beginning?
Yes.
What makes something true, is a good question and could be a new thread. (Probably already is)
There is objective truth and subjective truth. You may like the taste of a certain food and I don’t. Even if you and your friend agree it taste good, it is not true for me. Objective truth, on the other hand, is as it is, regardless of what one thinks about it.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Present awareness wrote: December 27th, 2019, 10:19 am
creation wrote: December 26th, 2019, 8:05 pm

Two people in agreement, also does not make anything not true.

If, as you say, agreement does not make something true, then what does make something true?



Yes.
What makes something true, is a good question and could be a new thread. (Probably already is)
You still did not answer my question. So, it could be inferred that you do not, yet, know what makes something true. Is this correct?
Present awareness wrote: December 27th, 2019, 10:19 amThere is objective truth and subjective truth.
I agree.
Present awareness wrote: December 27th, 2019, 10:19 amYou may like the taste of a certain food and I don’t. Even if you and your friend agree it taste good, it is not true for me.
So, we both already knew, and both already agree that personal subjectivity obviously does not make something, correct?
Present awareness wrote: December 27th, 2019, 10:19 amObjective truth, on the other hand, is as it is, regardless of what one thinks about it.
I agree.

To me, which you do not have to agree with what makes something true is 'agreement', itself. Now, I know you the same old stuff about agreement does not make something true, and I know you went directly to the 'two' people in agreement does not make something true logic also. But I never said 'two' people and I never said the majority of people. I just said 'with agreement'.

I say, if absolutely every one is in agreement on some such issue as being true, then there is obviously no one disagreeing, and so no one saying that it is not true, therefore, what else could make something true other than agreement?

Of course someone is thinking or will say, "But not everyone will agree on something". I will just ask them, "Are you sure you are correct?". And, if they are sure they are correct, then obviously everyone else would also be as sure, and so everyone would be agreeing that this is true, correct?

But, if some people would not agree with the logic that not everyone will agree on something, then they must have a logical reason why, and if they do, then the ones who agree that not everyone will agree on something, do not have a logical reason for this being true. Also, to prove that everyone could agree on something being true, then anyone who says it is not true could be put in a room and by slowly taking the oxygen out of the room they will soon learn and agree that human beings need oxygen to live is true. So, there are some things that everyone could agree with. So, 'with agreement' this becomes true. Just like the one person or two people who like a certain food the fact that they like that certain food is true is made 'with agreement', that is; 'with agreement' by one's self or with agreement by two people. But, also is the fact that not all people like that certain food is also true. So, everyone could 'agree' that not all people like the exact same certain foods is therefore, 'with agreement', true.

If everyone is agreeing that something is true, then for the sake of relativity there is absolutely no saying it is not true, so for all intents and purposes it is true. But, of course, down the track of future what might come along is some knowledge that shows that what everyone agreed true was in fact not true at all. But, obviously, not everyone would agree that anything that is agreed to be true is not able to be changed when further or newer knowledge comes along. So, what everyone could agree with is what is agreed by everyone now does not mean that it is true forever more. Everyone just agrees that it is true for the time being. Only human beings see things as being true or not. Only human beings therefore make things true, or not. Therefore, from the human perspective what, literally, makes something true is 'with agreement'.

To put this into the Objective Truth perspective, to make this "more true", as they say, how is Objective Truth distinguished from subjective truth? The answer to this is if subjective truth is just a personal subjective point of view, which may be true or not true, then Objective Truth is what absolutely every thing would see as being true. For example, human beings might see that the earth is flat, and so all of them might say the earth is flat is true, but from the perspective of earth or from the perspective anywhere outside of earth, earth obviously is not flat. Another example, from the human being perspective they might see the sun revolve around the earth and so all agree and all say that the sun revolves around the earth is true, but obviously from the sun, the moon, or from further afield perspective obviously the earth revolves around the sun. So, although every human being might agree on something being true, that is only another subjective truth, formed just from the relative human being's perspective of things.

Therefore, to see and obtain the Objective Truth is to look at all things not just from the perspective on one human beings, a few human beings, all human beings, but from ALL things. What is 'with agreement' from the perspective of ALL things is the only place where Objective Truth is found and gained.

When absolutely EVERY thing is 'in agreement' on the Truth of any thing, that is what makes the Truth the Truth.

Now, back to how this discussion started. You said, "Opinions vary, so how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one? The short answer is, one may not!"

I then wrote, "Another short answer is, with agreement."

So, which point of view here is the correct one?

Now obviously because I say with agreement, and because you say one may not. So, for to prove your point of view is the correct one, then all you have to do is forever more never agree with me. If, however, you were to do that, then you could also never prove that your point of view that one may not is the correct one, also. This is because people have to 'agree with you', for you to have your point of view proven correct.

So, literally, how does one prove their point of view might be the correct one is, IF everyone ends up agreeing that that point of view is correct, then there is is no saying it is not, so then it would, by its own making, have proven its self to be the correct point of view.

I say a 'point of view', which everyone holds and agrees with is the correct one. A 'point of view' that everyone has and agrees with could only be a 'point of view' that has, literally, come from everyone anyway. That is; A shared 'point of view' comes from the advantage point of looking at and seeing things from the exact SAME 'viewpoint'.

I just rushed through this so I would have left things out and written somethings very clumsily so just let me know if anything needs adjusting, correctly or explained further or more.
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Present awareness
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

If someone agrees to disagree, are they agreeing or disagreeing?

It’s not about being right or wrong, agreeing or disagreeing. As you mention, thoughts about the universe have changed as our technology advances and views today will no doubt change in the future. Truth remains unchanged, regardless of human perception.
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Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Steve3007 »

Present awareness wrote:If someone agrees to disagree, are they agreeing or disagreeing?
They're disagreeing, but agreeing not to come to blows over it, either literally or figuratively. They're acknowledging that no human being is infallible or has the right to claim a direct line to the truth and ignore all rational arguments against their position. They're acknowledging that life is complicated and that among the many human fallibilities is the tendency to make sweeping generalizations about other people and to assume things about them that weren't in their words. They're acknowledging various things like that and, in so doing, trying to show some humility.

That's my take.
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Steve3007 »

creation wrote:To put this into the Objective Truth perspective, to make this "more true", as they say, how is Objective Truth distinguished from subjective truth? The answer to this is if subjective truth is just a personal subjective point of view, which may be true or not true, then Objective Truth is what absolutely every thing would see as being true. For example, human beings might see that the earth is flat, and so all of them might say the earth is flat is true, but from the perspective of earth or from the perspective anywhere outside of earth, earth obviously is not flat. Another example, from the human being perspective they might see the sun revolve around the earth and so all agree and all say that the sun revolves around the earth is true, but obviously from the sun, the moon, or from further afield perspective obviously the earth revolves around the sun. So, although every human being might agree on something being true, that is only another subjective truth, formed just from the relative human being's perspective of things.

Therefore, to see and obtain the Objective Truth is to look at all things not just from the perspective on one human beings, a few human beings, all human beings, but from ALL things. What is 'with agreement' from the perspective of ALL things is the only place where Objective Truth is found and gained.

viewtopic.php?p=343661#p343661
Steve3007 wrote:I think the general takeaway message from this is that the observed behaviour of Nature frequently seems absurd to us whenever we consider physical situations that are far removed from the physical circumstances of our everyday life and on which our common sense notions of what is absurd and what makes sense are based.
creation wrote:Well considering physical situations far removed from the physical circumstances of your everyday life and on which your common sense notions of what is absurd and what makes sense are based is a truly absurd thing to do. So, why do you do that?
Do you consider space travel or being in Earth orbit to be far removed from the physical circumstances of your everyday life? In the example you gave, which I have quoted above, of the discovery that the Earth is not flat and that it orbits around the Sun, would you agree with me that these ideas might seem absurd to a person from the distant past whose entire life, and the lives of all people they have experience of, is spent on a small part of the surface of the Earth?

Do you believe that the Earth orbits the Sun? If so, why?
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Steve3007 »

viewtopic.php?p=343917#p343917
creation wrote:If now, then I neither believe nor disbelieve what people tell me. I instead accept what another person says is true on trust and on how much what they say makes sense to me.
If you lived 2000 years ago and somebody told you that the Earth is a big ball and that the Sun is a bigger ball, about 100 times the diameter of the Earth, and that the Earth goes around the Sun, and the stars are like suns but trillions of miles away, do you think that would have made sense to you? Does it make sense to you now? If the answers to those two questions differ, what do you think has happened between then and now to change things?
gater
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by gater »

There is no time/space. Time is independent of space and matter. Space is independent of time and matter. To understand the Universe you must understand the true nature of Time, Space, and Matter.
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Present awareness
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

There is no Time, no Space and no Matter, everything is electricity.

I bet you’ll get a real charge out of my statement!
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Steve3007 »

Continuing the satire:

I decree that there is no time, space, matter or electricity and will ignore all arguments to the contrary. Everything is a new concept called Ooowapoo that I've just invented. To understand the Universe you must understand the true nature of Ooowapoo. But all of you have shown that your minds are not open enough to do so. I alone understand the true nature of the Universe and of Ooowapoo. Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair.
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Present awareness
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by Present awareness »

Now we are getting somewhere! A brilliant mind that has seen through the clutter and discovered the unlimited truth of Ooowapoo!
And to think, I was just about to pay my electric bill this morning.

I think your next step Steve, is to build a church of Ooowapoo, so your followers will have a place to gather. It may take time, although there isn’t any, but that doesn’t matter, because there isn’t any of that either.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: December 29th, 2019, 8:18 am
creation wrote:To put this into the Objective Truth perspective, to make this "more true", as they say, how is Objective Truth distinguished from subjective truth? The answer to this is if subjective truth is just a personal subjective point of view, which may be true or not true, then Objective Truth is what absolutely every thing would see as being true. For example, human beings might see that the earth is flat, and so all of them might say the earth is flat is true, but from the perspective of earth or from the perspective anywhere outside of earth, earth obviously is not flat. Another example, from the human being perspective they might see the sun revolve around the earth and so all agree and all say that the sun revolves around the earth is true, but obviously from the sun, the moon, or from further afield perspective obviously the earth revolves around the sun. So, although every human being might agree on something being true, that is only another subjective truth, formed just from the relative human being's perspective of things.

Therefore, to see and obtain the Objective Truth is to look at all things not just from the perspective on one human beings, a few human beings, all human beings, but from ALL things. What is 'with agreement' from the perspective of ALL things is the only place where Objective Truth is found and gained.

viewtopic.php?p=343661#p343661
Steve3007 wrote:I think the general takeaway message from this is that the observed behaviour of Nature frequently seems absurd to us whenever we consider physical situations that are far removed from the physical circumstances of our everyday life and on which our common sense notions of what is absurd and what makes sense are based.
creation wrote:Well considering physical situations far removed from the physical circumstances of your everyday life and on which your common sense notions of what is absurd and what makes sense are based is a truly absurd thing to do. So, why do you do that?
Do you consider space travel or being in Earth orbit to be far removed from the physical circumstances of your everyday life?
Not really, I suppose.

Every physical circumstance I experience, is part of my "everyday" life. So, when, and if, I experience such things, then they also would just be a normal part of "everyday" life, to me, anyway.

But considering I have never experienced, what is generally known as "space travel" nor of having been in earth's orbit, then they, hitherto, have not so far been a part of my "everyday" life. But I still would not consider them as being "far removed".
Steve3007 wrote: December 29th, 2019, 8:18 am In the example you gave, which I have quoted above, of the discovery that the Earth is not flat and that it orbits around the Sun, would you agree with me that these ideas might seem absurd to a person from the distant past whose entire life, and the lives of all people they have experience of, is spent on a small part of the surface of the Earth?
Yes, very much so.

I would also say that just absolutely ALL human knowledge and ALL human achievements once seemed absolutely and totally absurd, and even totally impossible. For example, living in peace and harmony together as One, or "time travel", as it is generally known as.
Steve3007 wrote: December 29th, 2019, 8:18 amDo you believe that the Earth orbits the Sun? If so, why?
No. I neither believe nor disbelieve things.

I, however, think it does, because, this makes more sense to me, then it not.

Also, knowing why the perception that earth appears to be at the center of the Universe exists, helps to make the other perception make more sense, thus appear to be more real and true.
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: December 29th, 2019, 8:35 am viewtopic.php?p=343917#p343917
creation wrote:If now, then I neither believe nor disbelieve what people tell me. I instead accept what another person says is true on trust and on how much what they say makes sense to me.
If you lived 2000 years ago and somebody told you that the Earth is a big ball and that the Sun is a bigger ball, about 100 times the diameter of the Earth, and that the Earth goes around the Sun, and the stars are like suns but trillions of miles away, do you think that would have made sense to you?
Considering the way I look at things the way I do now, then I would have listened to what they had to say and if they could explain things so it made sense, to me, then yes it would have made sense to me. If, however, if how I used to look at things previously, then I would not have believed them from the very start, and so I would not have listened to anything else that they had to say.
Steve3007 wrote: December 29th, 2019, 8:35 am Does it make sense to you now?
Yes.
Steve3007 wrote: December 29th, 2019, 8:35 amIf the answers to those two questions differ, what do you think has happened between then and now to change things?
The answers have not changed, and have changed, depending on how I look at things and listen.

But, to answer the point you are getting at, the reason that knowledge makes sense to me now, which would not have 2000 years ago (that is; if I looked at things from a believing and disbelieving attitude) is because the knowledge of human beings "increases", for lack of a better word, and the way knowledge gets explained becomes better also.

Essentially it is because of human's ability to become more open all the time, which is increasing, which is what makes things make sense or more sense, which would not have and did not make any sense at all previously. Just like "time travel" and living in a Truly peaceful and pollution free world does not make sense now to just about everyone, these things to may well start making sense, as well as becoming possible, and thus a reality as well. Just like every other human knowledge and accomplishments have.

Also, what does not make sense, to most people now, like, for example; There is not such thing as physical 'space' nor 'time' at all, will start making sense to people in the long to distant future, at all.
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

gater wrote: December 30th, 2019, 4:19 pm There is no time/space. Time is independent of space and matter. Space is independent of time and matter. To understand the Universe you must understand the true nature of Time, Space, and Matter.
Do you understand the true nature of Time, Space, and Matter, and if yes, then you also understand the Universe, so you also could tell us what the true nature of Time, Space, and Matter, to you, is.

If you do not explain to us what the true nature of Time, Space, and Matter is, then why not?
creation
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Re: Thoughts on Time and Space.

Post by creation »

Present awareness wrote: December 31st, 2019, 12:44 am There is no Time, no Space and no Matter, everything is electricity.

I bet you’ll get a real charge out of my statement!
Can you elaborate on how there is no Matter?

What are these physical objects exactly, which are observed and felt by most people?
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