Magical thinking in science and philosophy

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creation
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Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by creation »

h_k_s wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:02 am
creation wrote: January 25th, 2020, 9:01 am

True, but I do not work that way.

I do not argue anything to 'convince' anyone.

I want people to see, understand, and accept things for, and by, themselves. I certainly do not want people to accept anything I say if they cannot see and understand it for, and by, themselves.

People do not truly accept things, anyway, unless they can fully see or understand it themselves.



Not necessarily. But it can help, that is; as long as the 'truth' they are seeking is not a 'truth' just to back up and support a previously held assumption, view, and/or belief that they have.

Personally, I found, or more correctly stumbled upon, or across, 'truth' completely unintentionally and accidentally. I was not seeking 'truth' at all. I was just in the process of doing something else.

(If what I stumbled across, though, is actually 'the truth' or not, is still yet to be determined?)
One thing of many that Robert M. Pirsig (technical writer, author, and philosopher) wrote about in his books is that truth is always just stumbled upon.
So, why did you write:
A person must be seeking truth before they can actually find it.
h_k_s wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:02 am We then only afterwards use inductive and deductive reasoning to explain it, mostly to ourselves, as it were.
Okay.
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by Atla »

creation wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:18 am
Atla wrote: January 25th, 2020, 9:35 am
If you want to preach about your childish hallucinations which you consider 'truth', open your own topics.
What brought this on?

This appears to be in direct contradiction of what I actually said here, and have been saying all along.

My WHOLE point is that 'truth' is relative to the observer, if this was not noticed, or not yet already known.

I have absolutely NOTHING I want to preach. I thought I made that clear by writing that I do not want to convince anyone of anything.
As I said: preach your childish hallucination which you consider 'truth' elsewhere, shove your point. Can you comprehend?
True philosophy points to the Moon
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h_k_s
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Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
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Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by h_k_s »

creation wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:20 am
h_k_s wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:02 am

One thing of many that Robert M. Pirsig (technical writer, author, and philosopher) wrote about in his books is that truth is always just stumbled upon.
So, why did you write:
A person must be seeking truth before they can actually find it.
h_k_s wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:02 am We then only afterwards use inductive and deductive reasoning to explain it, mostly to ourselves, as it were.
Okay.
Well, you do need to be seeking truth, but then in that process you will only stumble upon it by pure luck. You won't be able to rationalize nor deduce or infer what truth is. It will just be there, and you will conveniently stumble upon it someday.

Pirsig talks about that too in his first book -- that truth will be lying there in front of you and it will say to you "Here I am!"

His two books are excellent and I highly recommend them to all. He imitates one particular famous philosopher whose name I can't quite recall and right now I don't have time to look him up (I have other deadlines at the moment), but that famous philosopher wrote an entire book about his philosophical views. Then in his next book, he turned around and refuted them all himself.

That's what Pirsig does in his second book -- he refutes everything he said in his first book. For Pirsig, the difference is wealth. Pirsig starts in his first book to spell out several objective views he has. Then in his second book, he morphs into a Sophist and with relativism he embraces subjectivity and refutes everything he said in the first.

It is somewhat entertaining to thus read both books. Wish I could remember the name of the historic famous philosopher who did the same thing earlier.
creation
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Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by creation »

Atla wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:21 am
creation wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:18 am

What brought this on?

This appears to be in direct contradiction of what I actually said here, and have been saying all along.

My WHOLE point is that 'truth' is relative to the observer, if this was not noticed, or not yet already known.

I have absolutely NOTHING I want to preach. I thought I made that clear by writing that I do not want to convince anyone of anything.
As I said: preach your childish hallucination which you consider 'truth' elsewhere, shove your point. Can you comprehend?
Do you even have absolutely any clue or any idea what my views are?

If no, then okay.

But if yes, then what are they exactly?

If you do not answer, then that says more about 'you', then 'me'.

As I keep telling you, your WRONG assumptions and beliefs will keep leading you further astray all the time.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by creation »

h_k_s wrote: January 25th, 2020, 1:47 pm
creation wrote: January 25th, 2020, 10:20 am

So, why did you write:
A person must be seeking truth before they can actually find it.



Okay.
Well, you do need to be seeking truth, but then in that process you will only stumble upon it by pure luck.
I will disagree again. You do not 'need' to be seeking truth, to stumble upon it. Well I certainly was not seeking truth at all. I was just in the process of something else, at the time I stumble into Truth.

And, if it was by 'pure luck' we stumble upon truth. I think as a species we would have come across it by now, considering how long we have been around for.

To me, Truth is found just by being Truly Honest.

As soon as one is Truly Honest, then they become Truly OPEN, and it is from being OPEN where the actual Truth of things is found, seen, and understood, almost immediately.
h_k_s wrote: January 25th, 2020, 1:47 pm You won't be able to rationalize nor deduce or infer what truth is. It will just be there, and you will conveniently stumble upon it someday.

Pirsig talks about that too in his first book -- that truth will be lying there in front of you and it will say to you "Here I am!"

His two books are excellent and I highly recommend them to all. He imitates one particular famous philosopher whose name I can't quite recall and right now I don't have time to look him up (I have other deadlines at the moment), but that famous philosopher wrote an entire book about his philosophical views. Then in his next book, he turned around and refuted them all himself.

That's what Pirsig does in his second book -- he refutes everything he said in his first book. For Pirsig, the difference is wealth. Pirsig starts in his first book to spell out several objective views he has. Then in his second book, he morphs into a Sophist and with relativism he embraces subjectivity and refutes everything he said in the first.

It is somewhat entertaining to thus read both books. Wish I could remember the name of the historic famous philosopher who did the same thing earlier.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by Atla »

creation wrote: January 26th, 2020, 7:19 am your hatred of me is not surprising
What I HATE is the fact that this planet is overrun by goddamned idiots, which guarantees that humanity will go extinct soon. What I HATE is that I'm reminded every damn day of the fact that humanity was never meant to have a future, that all of this is for nothing.
True philosophy points to the Moon
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Magical thinking in science and philosophy

Post by creation »

Atla wrote: January 26th, 2020, 8:54 am
creation wrote: January 26th, 2020, 7:19 am your hatred of me is not surprising
What I HATE is the fact that this planet is overrun by goddamned idiots, which guarantees that humanity will go extinct soon. What I HATE is that I'm reminded every damn day of the fact that humanity was never meant to have a future, that all of this is for nothing.
Oh well, you will not have to worry about this for much longer yourself, as you to will be completely extinct very soon as well.

By the way, you forgot to include in my quote above WHY your hatred of me is not surprising, at all.
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