Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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dipta
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Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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If there are alien civilizations out there with advanced technology (airplane, computer, internet, etc.), do they use the same mathematical idea as humans do?

Maybe they have a different symbol for addition, multiplication, etc., and maybe they have a different number system (we use the decimal number system because we are born with 10 fingers). But do they also use the same idea as algebra, calculus, geometry, the binary number for computer, etc. as we do?

Is there an alternative to the human mathematical system?
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by Steve3007 »

In answering an interesting question like this, we first have to try to separate the superficial structures of our mathematics from the underlying principles. For example, clearly the fact that we use base 10 arithmetic stems from our having 10 digits on our hands. So if another civilisation were to use a different number base, perhaps because of a different anatomy, or perhaps because they decide not to use their anatomy as inspiration at all, I think we could regard that difference as highly superficial.

Our use of binary is arguably slightly less superficial. It stems from the fact that computer memory is essentially a series of switches which can be in two possible states. But this is still a result of specific features of the hardware we've decided to design.

So, can we identify those aspects of our mathematics that are truly abstractions, in the sense that they are not identifiably the result of any specific feature of life on the surface of the Earth? Perhaps (regardless of details like number base) the very concept of "number" is something to be considered? Is it conceivable that a civilisation might arise and have some kind of logical language, analogous to mathematics, that does not contain the concept of "number"?
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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Considering that consciousness expresses itself (at least at an empirical level) by means of pattern recognition it is likely that alien life forms - when bound to similar laws of nature - will develop the ability to count which logically results in the development of advanced mathematics.

Mathematics is essentially pattern recognition that stems from rhythms observed in nature. If an atom in another part of the Universe has a similar dependable rhythm, the alien life form will be required to count in order to comprehend such a pattern.
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by h_k_s »

dipta wrote: January 28th, 2020, 11:09 pm If there are alien civilizations out there with advanced technology (airplane, computer, internet, etc.), do they use the same mathematical idea as humans do?

Maybe they have a different symbol for addition, multiplication, etc., and maybe they have a different number system (we use the decimal number system because we are born with 10 fingers). But do they also use the same idea as algebra, calculus, geometry, the binary number for computer, etc. as we do?

Is there an alternative to the human mathematical system?
It is more likely than not if not totally certain that there are other "alien" species "out there" in the Universe with its 200 billion galaxies which we can now see with Hubble.

Depending on their evolution and the number of digits on their hands, they will have evolved mathematics similar to us except that since we have 10 fingers and 10 toes we have evolved a base-10 system with Sanskrit/Arabic numerals and the concept and number of a repeating zero.

So they might be base 2, or base 4, or base 3, or base 6, or base 12, or base 7, or base 14, etc.
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by h_k_s »

It's amusing to me to read what new members to this forum ruminate about.

The most fascinating notion to me however is why did it take the Greeks thousands of years of evolution to first develop Philosophy?

Seems like it should have happened sooner somehow. But instead, it was superstition and religion that evolved first everywhere on Earth, and now both of these as well as Philosophy are still with us in the 21st Century A.D./C.E.

The evolution of math is easy to comprehend. Two or more prehistoric preagricultural hunters are stalking a herd of prey animals, and one who is scouting ahead or in a particular direction must communicate with the other(s) how many he sees. His (males were hunters, females were gatherers and cared for the young clinging to their breasts while nursing) hands have 5 fingers on them, so he uses these to indicate to the other(s) how many he sees.

And with this historic moment, counting from 1 to 5 has developed !!
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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h_k_s wrote: January 30th, 2020, 5:38 pmThe most fascinating notion to me however is why did it take the Greeks thousands of years of evolution to first develop Philosophy?
It appears that Egyptians were practicing philosophy at least 3200 BC (10,000 years ago) and that Greek philosophers have used Egyptian philosophy as an example.
Plato states in Phaedrus that the Egyptian Thoth "invented numbers and arithmetic… and, most important of all, letters.”[3] In Plato’s Timaeus, Socrates quotes the ancient Egyptian wise men when the law-giver Solon travels to Egypt to learn: "O Solon, Solon, you Greeks are always children."[4] Aristotle attests to Egypt being the original land of wisdom, as when he states in Politics that "Egyptians are reputed to be the oldest of nations, but they have always had laws and a political system."[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_E ... philosophy
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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arjand wrote: January 30th, 2020, 6:14 pm
h_k_s wrote: January 30th, 2020, 5:38 pmThe most fascinating notion to me however is why did it take the Greeks thousands of years of evolution to first develop Philosophy?
It appears that Egyptians were practicing philosophy at least 3200 BC (10,000 years ago) and that Greek philosophers have used Egyptian philosophy as an example.
Plato states in Phaedrus that the Egyptian Thoth "invented numbers and arithmetic… and, most important of all, letters.”[3] In Plato’s Timaeus, Socrates quotes the ancient Egyptian wise men when the law-giver Solon travels to Egypt to learn: "O Solon, Solon, you Greeks are always children."[4] Aristotle attests to Egypt being the original land of wisdom, as when he states in Politics that "Egyptians are reputed to be the oldest of nations, but they have always had laws and a political system."[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_E ... philosophy
I wonder why the Egyptians do not get any credit for the evolution and development of Philosophy?

There is no mention of them in any of the histories of Western Philosophy.

Western Philosophy normally always begins with Thales, the "first individual in Western Civilization known to have entertained and engaged in scientific philosophy …".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_of_Miletus
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by Atla »

And early Egypt may have been influenced by the Indus Valley Civ, which was probably both philosophically and technologically more advanced.
And don't forget the very advanced early Phoenicians/Minoans, and all the other powers of the Bronze Age. A lot of that knowledge was erased in the late 2nd millennium BC collapse, only some of it living on thanks to the Egyptians.
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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h_k_s wrote: January 30th, 2020, 8:57 pmI wonder why the Egyptians do not get any credit for the evolution and development of Philosophy?
It may be related to availability (translation).
"In 2018, projects are under way to translate several ancient Egyptian texts for the first time. Yet we already have a wide variety of genres to choose from in order to study the manuscripts from a philosophical perspective: The many maxims in “The Teaching of Ptahhotep”, the earliest preserved manuscript of this vizier of the fifth dynasty is from the 19thcentury BCE, in which he also argues that you should “follow your heart”;
Would Egyptian philosophy be applicable to Western civilisation?

Would Western philosophy be applicable to an alien civilisation?
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by h_k_s »

arjand wrote: January 31st, 2020, 7:17 am
h_k_s wrote: January 30th, 2020, 8:57 pmI wonder why the Egyptians do not get any credit for the evolution and development of Philosophy?
It may be related to availability (translation).
"In 2018, projects are under way to translate several ancient Egyptian texts for the first time. Yet we already have a wide variety of genres to choose from in order to study the manuscripts from a philosophical perspective: The many maxims in “The Teaching of Ptahhotep”, the earliest preserved manuscript of this vizier of the fifth dynasty is from the 19thcentury BCE, in which he also argues that you should “follow your heart”;
Would Egyptian philosophy be applicable to Western civilisation?

Would Western philosophy be applicable to an alien civilisation?
Egyptian philosophy apparently died with them then.

Herodotus does spend a whole section of his book on them, and he does mention that they were accomplished physicians in their day. That's all that I recall about them from his book. Nothing on philosophy.
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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dipta wrote: January 28th, 2020, 11:09 pm If there are alien civilizations out there with advanced technology (airplane, computer, internet, etc.), do they use the same mathematical idea as humans do?

Maybe they have a different symbol for addition, multiplication, etc., and maybe they have a different number system (we use the decimal number system because we are born with 10 fingers). But do they also use the same idea as algebra, calculus, geometry, the binary number for computer, etc. as we do?

Is there an alternative to the human mathematical system?
Which alien civilisations do you mean?
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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Sculptor1 wrote: January 31st, 2020, 3:59 pm
dipta wrote: January 28th, 2020, 11:09 pm If there are alien civilizations out there with advanced technology (airplane, computer, internet, etc.), do they use the same mathematical idea as humans do?

Maybe they have a different symbol for addition, multiplication, etc., and maybe they have a different number system (we use the decimal number system because we are born with 10 fingers). But do they also use the same idea as algebra, calculus, geometry, the binary number for computer, etc. as we do?

Is there an alternative to the human mathematical system?
Which alien civilisations do you mean?
Non-human civilization
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dipta
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by dipta »

arjand wrote: January 30th, 2020, 1:19 pm Considering that consciousness expresses itself (at least at an empirical level) by means of pattern recognition it is likely that alien life forms - when bound to similar laws of nature - will develop the ability to count which logically results in the development of advanced mathematics.

Mathematics is essentially pattern recognition that stems from rhythms observed in nature. If an atom in another part of the Universe has a similar dependable rhythm, the alien life form will be required to count in order to comprehend such a pattern.
Do alien civilizations also invent the same mathematical axioms and theorems as humans do? Or do they invent another mathematical system?

Is mathematics invented or discovered?
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

Post by dipta »

h_k_s wrote: January 30th, 2020, 5:31 pm
dipta wrote: January 28th, 2020, 11:09 pm If there are alien civilizations out there with advanced technology (airplane, computer, internet, etc.), do they use the same mathematical idea as humans do?

Maybe they have a different symbol for addition, multiplication, etc., and maybe they have a different number system (we use the decimal number system because we are born with 10 fingers). But do they also use the same idea as algebra, calculus, geometry, the binary number for computer, etc. as we do?

Is there an alternative to the human mathematical system?
It is more likely than not if not totally certain that there are other "alien" species "out there" in the Universe with its 200 billion galaxies which we can now see with Hubble.

Depending on their evolution and the number of digits on their hands, they will have evolved mathematics similar to us except that since we have 10 fingers and 10 toes we have evolved a base-10 system with Sanskrit/Arabic numerals and the concept and number of a repeating zero.

So they might be base 2, or base 4, or base 3, or base 6, or base 12, or base 7, or base 14, etc.
The concept of limit, derivation, integration, matrix, complex number, etc. will work with every number system.

Maybe they develop different number systems, but do they also develop calculus, matrix, complex number, etc. like humans?
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Re: Do alien civilizations use the same mathematics idea as humans do?

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dipta wrote: February 3rd, 2020, 5:26 am
Sculptor1 wrote: January 31st, 2020, 3:59 pm

Which alien civilisations do you mean?
Non-human civilization
Obviously.
I'm asking WHICH ones?
Which ones, exactly?
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