The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Halc
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 11:23 am
Halc wrote: February 4th, 2020, 10:32 am In case (a), there would be one dot on the detector screen. A single data point. With the other cases, there would be 27 or 282 respectively.
A claim that would be based on what, exactly?
Based on the fact that this has been done on a regular basis. You fire one photon through the slits and you end up with one set of coordinates where it is measured on whatever detector they use. That's a dot. Fire 27 photons, one at a time or in a group, and you get 27 detections. The interference pattern becomes visible with a run of perhaps 10000 data points.

How would you be observing 1 versus 27 versus 282 particles to check how many dots they'd make on the detector screen?
Perhaps I don't understand what you're trying to convey. For one, how does one send 27 photons "in a single wave pattern" as opposed to not sending them that way?
That might be the only way that it's possible to send photons, at least given the apparatuses we have.
They have devices that emit one at a time, and at the time of their choosing.
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Halc
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

Post by Halc »

and apologies for the lack of proofreading. A piece of your quote came out as mine
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 2:34 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 2:30 pm

You wrote: " If we can emit single photons, then it's not true that we may only be able to emit groups of photons together. "

That's a conditional. Conditionals are "if...then" statements.

What I was asking can't be answered by a conditional. It can't be answered by an "if...then" statement. I'm asking how we know we're emitting single photons. Saying "If we're emitting single photons, then . . . " doesn't address how we know that we are emitting single photons.

Re the "measurement problem," that only arises via reifying mathematics--taking the mathematical equations we use to be telling us what the noumenal/objective world is like.
I linked how we know we're emitting single photons. You just won't look it up because it refutes your pet theory.

And by saying that the measurement problem only arises via reifying mathematics, you've lost your remaining credibility as well. It arises directly from experiment.
I'd ask you to quote what part of the Wikipedia article you believe answers the question I'm asking, but I won't bother, because there's no way you'd follow through.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Halc wrote: February 4th, 2020, 3:12 pm Based on the fact that this has been done on a regular basis. You fire one photon through the slits
So, the question is, "How do we know that we're firing one photon?"

And your answer is?
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 2:34 pm And by saying that the measurement problem only arises via reifying mathematics, you've lost your remaining credibility as well. It arises directly from experiment.
You're not claiming that we've experimentally observed superpositions prior to measurement, are you?
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 4:48 pm I'd ask you to quote what part of the Wikipedia article you believe answers the question I'm asking, but I won't bother, because there's no way you'd follow through.
So your position boils down to: even though these machines were designed to emit single photons, and according to all the known physics they do, and according to the experimental results they do, and according to techniques like the SPECT scan, all this is working as intended, that still has nothing to do with the question of whether single photons can be emitted?

And that's why I asked whether you understand that physical things happening are actually happening.
You're not claiming that we've experimentally observed superpositions prior to measurement, are you?
Can't make heads or tails of this question.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 5:19 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 4:48 pm I'd ask you to quote what part of the Wikipedia article you believe answers the question I'm asking, but I won't bother, because there's no way you'd follow through.
So your position boils down to: even though these machines were designed to emit single photons, and according to all the known physics they do, and according to the experimental results they do, and according to techniques like the SPECT scan, all this is working as intended, that still has nothing to do with the question of whether single photons can be emitted?
My question boils down to: what is the epistemic justification, a la "the well-known physics," for the apparatuses in question emitting just one photon. It can't be a complete mystery to everyone, can it? So let's find someone, or a source, to whom it's not a mystery, and let's examine the arguments for how we know that we're emitting just one photon.
You're not claiming that we've experimentally observed superpositions prior to measurement, are you?
Can't make heads or tails of this question.
[/quote]
The "measurement problem" is "the problem of how (or whether) wave function collapse occurs. The inability to observe such a collapse directly has given rise to different interpretations of quantum mechanics and poses a key set of questions that each interpretation must answer. The wave function in quantum mechanics evolves deterministically according to the Schrödinger equation as a linear superposition of different states. However, actual measurements always find the physical system in a definite state. Any future evolution of the wave function is based on the state the system was discovered to be in when the measurement was made, meaning that the measurement 'did something' to the system that is not obviously a consequence of Schrödinger evolution. The measurement problem is describing what that 'something' is, how a superposition of many possible values becomes a single measured value."

I commented that the whole "problem" arises because of the mathematical way that we talk about wave function collapse, namely so that there's a "superposition" prior to measurement. You countered that it's not simply a mathematical issue, but something we've observed. So I asked you if we've observed superpositions (so that we have an issue of how superpositions collapse into a single measured value where this isn't simply an artifact of reifying mathematics).
Atla
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 5:32 pm My question boils down to: what is the epistemic justification, a la "the well-known physics," for the apparatuses in question emitting just one photon. It can't be a complete mystery to everyone, can it? So let's find someone, or a source, to whom it's not a mystery, and let's examine the arguments for how we know that we're emitting just one photon.
So your point is that even though we have built a technological civilization based on physics, and it all seems to work just fine, there is actually no epistemic justification to believe that any of that physics relates in any way to how the world actually works? Ookay..
The "measurement problem" is "the problem of how (or whether) wave function collapse occurs. The inability to observe such a collapse directly has given rise to different interpretations of quantum mechanics and poses a key set of questions that each interpretation must answer. The wave function in quantum mechanics evolves deterministically according to the Schrödinger equation as a linear superposition of different states. However, actual measurements always find the physical system in a definite state. Any future evolution of the wave function is based on the state the system was discovered to be in when the measurement was made, meaning that the measurement 'did something' to the system that is not obviously a consequence of Schrödinger evolution. The measurement problem is describing what that 'something' is, how a superposition of many possible values becomes a single measured value."

I commented that the whole "problem" arises because of the mathematical way that we talk about wave function collapse, namely so that there's a "superposition" prior to measurement. You countered that it's not simply a mathematical issue, but something we've observed. So I asked you if we've observed superpositions (so that we have an issue of how superpositions collapse into a single measured value where this isn't simply an artifact of reifying mathematics).
So, ignoring the central issue. Let's put it this way: the measurement problem is about why your "push and pull" effect gets turned off, when measurement occurs (whatever the hell that is). There ARE two kinds of irreconcilable behaviours happening.
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:12 pm So your point is that even though we have built a technological civilization based on physics, and it all seems to work just fine, there is actually no epistemic justification to believe that any of that physics relates in any way to how the world actually works? Ookay..
It's just a simple question about the epistemic justification of one very specific thing. Again, it shouldn't be so difficult to find someone who is actually familiar with the epistemic justification for this specific thing. If we find someone/some source, then we can look at the reasoning.
So, ignoring the central issue. Let's put it this way: the measurement problem is about why your "push and pull" effect gets turned off, when measurement occurs (whatever the hell that is). There ARE two kinds of irreconcilable behaviours happening.
That's actually not anything about the measurement problem, which is a specific issue that has to do with the difference between superpositions and single, determinate values that are measured.

But sure, I guess you could call other things "measurement problems" if you want to.
Atla
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:18 pm It's just a simple question about the epistemic justification of one very specific thing. Again, it shouldn't be so difficult to find someone who is actually familiar with the epistemic justification for this specific thing. If we find someone/some source, then we can look at the reasoning.
Okay so your point is that all of physics is BS. For example when physicists use a single-molecule source, they can't actually count so they can't tell 1 molecule from say 453.
That's actually not anything about the measurement problem, which is a specific issue that has to do with the difference between superpositions and single, determinate values that are measured.

But sure, I guess you could call other things "measurement problems" if you want to.
So in denial of the actual experiments. Okay.
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

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Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:33 pm Okay so your point is that all of physics is BS.
Great reading comprehension. Or trolling. Or whatever it is.
So in denial of the actual experiments. Okay.
You talked about what I proposed. What I proposed has nothing to do with the measurement problem, which is a term for a specific issue.

That wasn't a wasted post from you, was it?
Atla
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:38 pm
Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:33 pm Okay so your point is that all of physics is BS.
Great reading comprehension. Or trolling. Or whatever it is.
So in denial of the actual experiments. Okay.
You talked about what I proposed. What I proposed has nothing to do with the measurement problem, which is a term for a specific issue.

That wasn't a wasted post from you, was it?
Nah I'm just commenting for fun, there's not much new I can learn on these forums.
Of course one needs to spend at least a few years thinking about the Measurement problem and its implications, because one can even attempt to say something worthwhile about it. But to think about one needs to acknowlodge it first, most people don't reach that point.
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:50 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 6:38 pm
Great reading comprehension. Or trolling. Or whatever it is.



You talked about what I proposed. What I proposed has nothing to do with the measurement problem, which is a term for a specific issue.

That wasn't a wasted post from you, was it?
Nah I'm just commenting for fun, there's not much new I can learn on these forums.
Of course one needs to spend at least a few years thinking about the Measurement problem and its implications, because one can even attempt to say something worthwhile about it. But to think about one needs to acknowlodge it first, most people don't reach that point.
Yeah, I just started thinking about this stuff yesterday.
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Halc
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

Post by Halc »

Terrapin Station wrote: February 4th, 2020, 4:49 pm
Halc wrote: February 4th, 2020, 3:12 pm Based on the fact that this has been done on a regular basis. You fire one photon through the slits
So, the question is, "How do we know that we're firing one photon?"
And your answer is?
[/quote]My answer is that I've never personally done that, but I take the word of scientists who have done just that, getting one data point at a time. The link Alta gave described one way that it can be done. It's apparently not done on command, but you can control some minimum duration between photons, so if you want them a minute apart, the device will not put two closer than that, but it also doesn't fire one every minute.
You're not claiming that we've experimentally observed superpositions prior to measurement, are you?
I think it better to word it as they've experimentally observed the effects of superposition via measurements.
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Re: The Twin-Slit Experiment

Post by Terrapin Station »

Halc wrote: February 4th, 2020, 8:09 pm

And your answer is?
My answer is that I've never personally done that, but I take the word of scientists who have done just that, getting one data point at a time. The link Alta gave described one way that it can be done. It's apparently not done on command, but you can control some minimum duration between photons, so if you want them a minute apart, the device will not put two closer than that, but it also doesn't fire one every minute.
As I noted, we're not explaining how we're ruling out that perhaps we either emit 27 photons at the lowest output of none. We can't just assume that the lowest output must be just one photon and not some arbitrary number of them.
You're not claiming that we've experimentally observed superpositions prior to measurement, are you?
I think it better to word it as they've experimentally observed the effects of superposition via measurements.
What is something you'd take to be an example of this?
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